Chances for a Strong Virology or Immunology Program?

[Juswondering]

Hi all,

 

I am not a future PhD applicant, but my SO is. I am planning on applying to law school this fall, and my current numbers are strong; I am expecting to get into one of the schools ranked somewhere between 3-14. My SO, however, doesn't have as strong numbers, not for lack of trying, but because of a challenging biology program at the school we attended for undergrad, as well as some family issues she had to deal with over those four years. Our plan is to attend school in the same location, which is why her chances for getting into a strong PhD program is worrying us a little bit, and stressing her out. 

 

Here are her stats: 

 

Female, Latin-American, US Citizen

Undergrad: Ivy-League

3.0 UGPA; I believe somewhat higher than that for Major GPA (if that involves excluding Organic Chemistry and Neuroscience). Also, she defended her Honors thesis, and received honors on her diploma, despite honors generally requiring at least a 3.5; an exception was made for her based on the strong recommendation of her advisor and the PI she worked under at the time. Would this affect anything?

GRE - has not taken yet; currently studying. She said she will work to make sure these numbers are strong for the programs to which she will be applying. 

Research experience - spent a year conducting research in Undergrad under a well-known PI in his field (now retired); now currently 1 year into a 2 year work period at a very prestigious virology research lab in Massachusetts, working under a highly known PI in the field. 

Publications: None yet, but a paper she is working on is currently drafted and in the final revisions stage, which will be submitted to Nature. According to the PI and other researchers, the quality and sheer quantity of the data presented and analyzed makes it highly likely that it will be accepted. If it is published, she would be second author. 

LORs - She would receive one from her former retired PI, her current PI, and her academic advisor from her Undergrad, who was also a professor of hers. These letters are expected to be extremely strong. All three have expressed strong enthusiasm for assisting her; her current PI also is very influential, and has formerly served on the admissions committee for a top 5 ranked PhD program.

 

All of this is really foreign for me; for law school, the GPA and LSAT reign supreme, and everything else (LORs, work experience) is basically just a formality. I've heard, though, that for PhD programs letters of recommendation are crucial, and that research experience can make a lot of difference. I guess what I'm asking is, would extremely strong LORs, along with good work experience be able to overcome a low, border-line GPA? Are schools like Harvard or Stanford still possibly on the table? Are there schools that have a cutoff higher than that 3.0 magic number people tend to cite? 

 

Our biggest worry is that we won't be able to find a program close enough to a corresponding law school, meaning that we would have to pursue something long distance for multiple years. At the same time, I don't want to have her apply to a  program she would hate, or not apply to a program that she would love (like WUSTL), just for purposes of proximity. It would just make her miserable.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, and thanks for the help!

[peachypie]

You got to give us a bit more information to really have a conversation here.  But I'd strongly encourage your SO to apply to competitive programs, though the GPA is low the experience and pubs are huge as well.  Also really actual strong LORs (ie. from well known virologists or immunologists that carry national reputations) will be huge.  Mind in giving information about the locations and/or potential programs that you may want to apply to or that your SO would be appllying to?

[neverdecaf]

I think it would be helpful to know what locations you are considering as well. It might be a good strategy to apply to areas where there are multiple schools (Massachusetts, Research Triangle in NC, New York, etc). That way there are different tiers of schools so it's likely she'll get in somewhere. Her experience seems impressive, but why are you posting for her? It might help for her to discuss her own application..

[Juswondering]

Sorry about that; I wasn't sure how much information I ought to include at the time.

 

To be more specific, she is currently looking at Harvard, UMass, Boston University, UCSF, Yale, University of Chicago, Northwestern, and Michigan. She said she was interested in WashU/WUSTL, Rockefeller and Scripps, but said she wouldn't apply because it's not close to anywhere where I would be. I asked her about Duke, but she wasn't very interested in living in North Carolina.

 

I am primarily considering Harvard, U Chicago/Northwestern, Michigan (Ann Arbor), University of Virginia, and Berkeley. New York (Columbia and NYU) is a possibility, although neither of us really like the city very much. Stanford is also a strong option, but my numbers aren't really quite there. I don't think I really have a chance of getting into Yale; she's a little more positive on that front about my chances.

 

My SO actually doesn't know I'm posting about this. She's been feeling pretty discouraged lately about her GPA. I've been telling her not to worry about it and trying to cheer her up, but since I know very little about this, I wanted to know that I'm being reasonable about what I was saying and not being overly optimistic.

 

Should I also provide more information about the PI she' working under or lab she's working at? I don't know if that is potentially incriminating information (it would be really easy to identify her based on that), but if it's necessary, I can provide it as well.

 

Thank you!

[ballwera]

This is one of the more interesting two body problems I've seen. All of the schools sans UVa have multiple schools within a decent commute. If I were you, I would also apply to schools that are on her list but not yours ( wustl/washu ) and vice versa. Also have you considered applying to law school after your SO is accepted somewhere? Applying to grad school is a huge crap shoot, so you may want to consider the possibility that only one of you gets in this year. If she is applying to PhD programs it will take her 4 - 6 years to complete, so you may also want to consider what implications that has on your early career as well. Sorry I may have raised more questions than I answered haha. 

[bsharpe269]

I think she'll do well in the application process. Like you said, law school is much more of a numbers game than PhD programs. To succeed in law school you need to be able to learns tons of information quickly and be able to critically think about it. Your GPA and LSAT are probably the best indicators of your ability to do this. To succeed in grad school you need to be a great researcher. LORs from other researchers and your research experience are the best indicators of this.

 

Many of us on here got into great schools with low GPAs. I had a 3.45 from a state school and am headed to WUSTL this fall. Like your SO, I had tons of research experience and great LORs. Her main barrier in admission will be the committee's fear that she can't keep a 3.0 in the graduate course work during her first year or get through the qualifying exam. If one of her LOR writers is willing to address the family issues she dealt with and how they will no longer affect her then I that would lessen the admissions committee's worry.

 

To increase the odds of you guys ending up together, I agree that you should consider applying to WashU since they have a great law school. University of Washington and Cornell might worth considering for you guys as well. I also think its worth applying to NC schools since UNC and Duke both have great biomed sciences and Duke has a good law school. All of this of course depends on her ability to find advisors at these schools who are doing research she is interested in.

[neverdecaf]

Is she not interested in UVa? They have some cool stuff going on. Also (this might not mean much coming from a stranger on the internet), but I interviewed at Duke and UNC for immunology and they were both awesome! There was a lot to do in the area at a very reasonable cost of living.

[peachypie]

I would strongly encourage your SO to look at fit and possible professors, that is actually really important in her career development and in getting into a school.  She also, if located near any of these programs, should reach out to a faculty member, maybe a director of a graduate program or someone who may sit on the committee for admissions of the department she is interested in (this is often posted somewhere on their website).  She can very honestly sit down and talk to one of the members if she can arrange it and explain her interests as well as her profile and see if the member considers her a good fit or if they can give her feedback on her chances. 
I say this mainly because having a list of schoos is great, but its more about the program and the faculty available.  A lot of these are great schools, but I couldn't figure out what her interest was because each program has specialities that it may be best at.  I couldn't figure out the theme of these other than major metro areas and nationally well known science schools.  For example, if Boston area is of improtance, what about Tufts?  thats a great micro school and its located in the same area? 

this is what academics call a 2-body problem.  Unfortunately its a time that may require someone to make a sacrifice if the relationship must continue in the same location, which is often the case.  Maybe both of you should focus on your applications with some overlap but also with areas that aren't, but may be a great school for either one of you.  The situation may never come down to that but it can't hurt to go after a dream school.  Decisions can be made in spring when there is a clearer understanding of options.  Maybe long distance isn't ideal but its certainly not terrible.

[Chimeric Phoenix]

I think it's worth applying, but I do believe she is definitely on the outside chance of getting in if the Nature paper isn't published by the time she submits her application. Even with the Nature publication those are very difficult schools to get into, and her GPA is going to be probably .6 to .7 below the average accepted student. 
 

Having said that, you'll never know if you don't try. Not to mention, if she is really dedicated to getting in this is only 1 application cycle. If that paper gets published and she spends the next year taking graduate courses wherever you end up, she shouldn't have any trouble finding a good school. 

 

Final two thoughts: 1) She needs to ace the GRE. If she thinks she can do well on the subject test, that could help (or hurt if she does poorly). 2) Why hasn't she considered Johns Hopkins? (Andrea Cox, Bob Siliciano, Stuart Ray, Joel Blankson) [shameless plug]

[BiochemMom]

Is she not interested in UVa? They have some cool stuff going on. Also (this might not mean much coming from a stranger on the internet), but I interviewed at Duke and UNC for immunology and they were both awesome! There was a lot to do in the area at a very reasonable cost of living.

RTP is an awesome place to live. It's in the foothills of the mountains so there are some hills. 3 hours from the beach. Tons of local culture in Chapel Hill. Easy to commute between the three schools (avoid nc state for biological sciences. They just got rid of a bunch of departments to fire non performing tenure track people--their chemistry is still fine, but I'd keep far away from biology related fields for a couple of years)

That said, Duke and UNC are really competitive. UNC is amazing though. It was my last choice when I applied--and I only applied because six of the tenured faculty from my MS institution got their chemistry degrees from UNC and pressured me swearing I'd love it. I did it under their recommendation and an hour before the deadline (I'd had everything done just had to wait til I got paid to pay for it).

Then I went to the interview. UNC was definitely my home. I love it here. I'm a mom and my husband is disabled from an IED in Afghanistan. Because of this, we need my income. None of the faculty I wanted to research with could do a summer research position (short sebaticles etc) but my first fall rotation PI went above and beyond and arranged for me to complete my TA requirement prior to entering this fall (since I did it for 2 years in my MS) so I could get my stipend.

UNC is also family friendly should you guys be going that route. After my quals are over and I'm officially a candidate, my husband and I are going to try for child #2. I know it's not recommended but I don't care--I blatantly said in my SOP that I have a young child and told each person I wanted to rotate with I wanted one while in the program and if they weren't okay with that to let me know and I'd rotate with someone else to not waste either of our time. They were all fine with it. More than fine--the three I picked told me I needed to finish having them before my post doc and tenure track (I'm in my 30s so I'd have to immediately have another kid upon graduating if I didn't do it during or risk not having another) and encouraged me to enjoy my PhD program and that it wouldn't be an issue.

Point is, she may think she'll hate it but fall in love with it.

[virus guy]

I agree with the other forum posters saying to apply to places with multiple schools in a relatively small area. I would also look at Philadelphia, they have Drexel, Thomas Jefferson, Penn, and Temple all within about 2-3 miles of each other. It gives you guys the greatest chance of not having to do a long distance relationship. Drexel and Penn definatley have strengths in virology and immunology. Good immunology isn't too hard to find but good virology can be a bit more difficult to find (another reason I recommend Philly, lots of virology research). To clarify further about finding virology is that a lot of top tier school have great virology but getting in is a definite crap shoot.  Another question is has your SO finished her undergrad and it now doing research after being graduated?