MA or MTS before a philosophy PhD

[atm1022]

I need some advice. My end goal is to get a PhD in philosophy, but first I was some sort of masters level theological training -- all this to work within the academy, not necessarily vocational ministry. That being said, an MDiv would seem out of place, right? I should look towards an MA or MTS, right? What are the pros and cons of both? I've heard that an MTS is a more generalized degree? Is this the case?

Do any of you have experiences with this route (theology degree and then philosophy degree)? Or know of anyone who does?

Any other general advice would be helpful. Thanks!

[menge]

I need some advice. My end goal is to get a PhD in philosophy, but first I was some sort of masters level theological training -- all this to work within the academy, not necessarily vocational ministry. That being said, an MDiv would seem out of place, right? I should look towards an MA or MTS, right? What are the pros and cons of both? I've heard that an MTS is a more generalized degree? Is this the case?

Do any of you have experiences with this route (theology degree and then philosophy degree)? Or know of anyone who does?

Any other general advice would be helpful. Thanks!

I'd say it all depends on where you want to do your PhD, what you want to study, and where you want to end up after that. There are certainly people and places that are amenable to this, especially if your work in an MA or MTS is more philosophical. Overall I'd say yes, don't bother with the MDiv unless you get a great funding package for it. MDiv's require a lot of more practical/ministerial coursework than the MA or MTS. Can you give a little more info on your goals? 

[Rabbit Run]

I'd suggest looking at philosophy MAs as well. There are some good ones that emphasize philosophy of religion/philosophical theology, especially at Catholic schools. I'd suggest Villanova, Boston College, and Fordham. Further, some philosophy MAs, such as Tufts or University of Georgia, are known to be funded pretty well, however I get the sense that they emphasize analytic philosophy over the continental approach that likely be more amenable to your interests.

 

I'd suggest caution in using a theology degree to get into a PhD program in philosophy proper (as opposed to a Philosophical Theology/Philosophy of Religion track within a Religion/theology program). I know some folks who've tried it and have felt that its held them back and caused them to be looked at with suspicion by the philosophy guild. Of course this is anecdotal, so someone else feel free to give a more optimistic picture.

[tsgriffey]

I agree with Rabbit Run. My thought is that you should do a philosophy MA program and incorporate your theological interests into your research, if a PhD program in philosophy is your ultimate goal. Getting into a good PhD program in philosophy is VERY competitive and you will be competing with others who have MA's in philosophy.

If you go the theology route now, you may have to resort to getting another Masters degree in philosophy. If you can afford it then more power to you, but that would be an enormous expense.

Edited July 9, 2015 by tsgriffey

[atm1022]

A couple of things --

 

I guess I should have been more clear with my intentions. I don't intend on getting an MA or MTS in theology as preparation for getting into a PhD (philosophy) program. Rather, I want to study theology for the sake of theology. No doubt my future philosophical work will deal with issues in the Christian faith, so I want a solid grounding. I have already accepted the fact that I will also need an MA in philosophy too, which is something I would pursue after an MA or MTS in theology (the MA program at Tufts is on my list).

 

That being said, what is a good route to take in getting a generalized theology degree with an academic, not ministerial, focus? Would a MTS or MA in theology still be looked at in suspicion if I had an MA in philosophy too?

[menge]

That does help. As others indicated, training in philosophy is definitely better for getting into philosophy PhD's - and especially ranked ones. Check out the programs Rabbit Run listed, as they will let you work in Phil. too. Also you might look at the Institute for Christian studies at Toronto, and then the usual suspects like Notre Dame, Chicago, etc. If you have interests in religion/theology more broadly there are state universities that offer funding for MA's as well. I know another poster on the boards here had mentioned a hope of funding with Kansas, and there are two others heading to Western Michigan U. in the fall with funding. 

 

*Edit: Someone else with more philosophy background/experience will have to chime in on how theology degrees will auger in a Philosophy setting, though my initial thought is that with a Phil. MA it shouldn't hurt you as long as you earn good marks and have high GRE's. 

Edited July 10, 2015 by menge

[marXian]

I have known of a few people who have earned an MA in theology at an evangelical seminary (Fuller), followed that with an MA in philosophy (usually from a school local to Fuller, CSULA or LMU) and have been able to get into good PhD programs in philosophy (UCSD, for example). I had considered that route myself, but already had an MA (English lit) coming into my theology MA (at Fuller) and thought doing a third before a PhD program was just too much. It was my contingency plan though. As I was considering my options, the philosophy prof at Fuller, Nancey Murphy (who's PhD in philosophy is from Berkeley) told me that it reflects better on applicants to do the philosophy degree after the theology one because it shows where your most current interests are, or as she put it, "That you've changed your mind for the better."

 

So it shouldn't matter where your MA in theology is from, as long as it's an MA/MTS, since those are considered the "academic" degrees, even at a seminary. I know someone at my school (T30 philosophy department) who earned his MA in philosophy of religion from Talbot. As long as you have the chops, I don't think programs care too much if your degree is from a religious school. That is, they're not necessarily going to take that into consideration as an isolated variable in evaluating your application.

[tsgriffey]

what is a good route to take in getting a generalized theology degree with an academic, not ministerial, focus? Would a MTS or MA in theology still be looked at in suspicion if I had an MA in philosophy too?

 

Either would be fine for your purposes, I don't think there is a significant distinction between a MA and a MTS. Look into University of Chicago and Harvard Divinity.

 

As long as you also get a philosophy masters degree it probably will make you more competitive. I think it also depends on what your focus in philosophy will be--that could make the difference between "oh look, he has a theology degree...that's pretty cool" and "he will bring a more applied and different perspective on this philosophy curriculum." What are your interests in philosophy and theology?

 

Does anyone actually think that a theology degree could hurt him/her?

[sacklunch]

Either would be fine for your purposes, I don't think there is a significant distinction between a MA and a MTS. Look into University of Chicago and Harvard Divinity.

 

As long as you also get a philosophy masters degree it probably will make you more competitive. I think it also depends on what your focus in philosophy will be--that could make the difference between "oh look, he has a theology degree...that's pretty cool" and "he will bring a more applied and different perspective on this philosophy curriculum." What are your interests in philosophy and theology?

 

Does anyone actually think that a theology degree could hurt him/her?

 

 

Concerning your last question: yes, absolutely. I have (over)heard several professors in various subfields of religion (from top schools) comment that they would never take a student with a 'theology' (confessional) background. From my experience these are generally religiously non-affiliated scholars who question the academic standards of seminary training. I suspect such comments exclude places like HDS and UChicago Div. Though I imagine it is just as likely for a scholar to question a student's training in a secular religious studies department. In any case, I've found no way of guessing a particular scholar's position on this besides getting to know them. As you all know, there are many fairly religious scholars who are strictly historians and are no different from any other historian who studies living and/or dead traditions.

 

Concerning the M* in RS or theology before applying to PhD programs in philosophy, I would just go ask the peps in the philosophy section. What little I have heard from doctoral students in ancient/political philosophy is they tend to dismiss seminary training. This goes for fields like Classics and RS, too. There are certain reasons for this: 1) many seminaries do not require/require very little language training; 2) many seminaries have incredibly high acceptance rates compared to almost any other competitive M* degree; 3) many seminaries require their students to take a large number of required coursed in a wide range of topics, thus diluting the specificity of the degree; 4) and finally, some seminaries require/expect their students to be of a particular religious tradition. I'm not saying all of these are accurate, just what I have encountered as common reactions to theological training at the M* level. Take them cum grano salis.