Advice Requested on Physics PhD School Selection for Husband and Wife Applying Together

[Chiron]

Hello, my wife and myself both just graduated with Masters degrees from a relatively low-ranked PhD program and we are looking to apply to a PhD program with better opportunities. Both of us have been here for about 5 years and we would, if at all possible, like to be accepted to the same school.

 

My undergrad is in Physics from a relatively high-ranked school in the US (which I completed with a GPA of 3.7/4)

My wife's undergrad is in Physics from a relatively high-ranked school in India (which is equivalent to about >3.5/4 after conversion)

 

I have two Masters degrees. The first is in Physics (which I completed with a GPA of 3.7/4)

       My second Masters Degree is in Science Education (which I completed with an overall GPA of 3.9/4)

My wife's Masters degree is in Physics (which she completed with a GPA of 3.6/4)

       She was also pursuing a PhD in Physics following this, for which she completed all of the course-work (overall GPA is 3.8/4)

 

Other information which may be helpful is that we both passed the Physics Qualifying exam at our school at the PhD level. We believe that this is likely a positive for our application. Also, my wife has completed her PhD candidacy exam, which happened about 1.5 years go.

 

In addition, both of us have research experience and computer programming skills at both the undergrad and grad level.

     As an undergrad I worked on a theoretical REU project and also worked on an experimental project. Both were strongly related to optics.

     As a graduate student I have worked closely on two projects, both of which are in Physics Education.

     As an undergrad my wife worked on both theoretical and experimental AMO projects. At the graduate level she has also worked on both experimental and theoretical projects AMO.

 

Having said all this the research opportunities at our current graduate school are very limited. We do not have papers and we have taken the decision to move elsewhere. It is actually because of these limited opportunities that I originally chose to see if Physics Education was a good fit. It was not, and as the opportunities at this school were not a good fit for either of us, and it became apparent that the opportunities necessary were not going to become available in the future, we have made the decision to move, even after all this time.

 

This time lapse of about 5 years is something which we believe may count against us. We are certainly going to explain it as well as we can in our SOP's (and do it in such a way it makes it clear it will not happen again) but just to be sure we are looking at applying to about 20 schools. We have come up with a very tentative list and would like any advice which you can provide about good choices (i.e, to say if we are over-reaching or under-reaching, other schools to consider, etc...)

 

We are going to be taking the September PGRE next Saturday, followed soon after by the General GRE. Thus, we won't be able to upload our exact scores for a while. However, as things stand right now we expect that for both of us the scores for the PGRE should end up 800+. Thus, please take that number into account for any advice.

 

We would very much appreciate any advice regarding the list of schools which you can provide. We're really in a very difficult situation, and any advice which may help us to get out of it would be very much appreciated.

 

Heres our list so far. We are applying to a lot of lower ranked school because honestly, as I said previously, we are in a very difficult situation and need to get in. Trying again next year is not an option. Our research interests lie mainly with experimental AMO for me, and theoretical AMO for my wife. However, as our situation is somewhat desperate we feel we can be a little flexible. Also, in order to increase our chances of getting multiple acceptances, we plan on applying to a wide range of schools. Thus, you may see a few unranked universities in our list, which we feel is okay as there will be about 20 in total.

 

1) University of Nebraska - Lincoln      (Ranked 70 on US News)

2) Washington State University            (Ranked 77 on US News)

3) Georgetown University                    (Ranked 77 on US News)

4) Oregon State University                  (Ranked 77 on US News)

5) Colorado School of Mines                (Ranked 77 on US News)

6) University of Central Florida           (Ranked 85 on US News)

7) University of Texas - Dallas             (Ranked 95 on US News)

8 ) Lehigh University                            (Ranked 95 on US News)

9) University of Maryland - Baltimore  (Ranked 103 on US News)

10) Temple University                        (Ranked 103 on US News)

11) University of New Hampshire        (Ranked 103 on US News)

12) University of Houston                   (Ranked 103 on US News)

13) West Virginia University               (Ranked 111 on US News)

14) Wake Forest University                (Ranked 123 on US News)

15) George Mason University              (Ranked 131 on US News)

16) Old Dominion University               (Ranked 142 on US News)

17) Portland State University              (Unranked on US News)

[TakeruK]

I think it is great that both of you have finished your qualifying exams at your current school. That will certainly count for you. However, as you mentioned, I also think that the fact that you have been in grad school for 5 years now will count against you. If you two are to start a new PhD program, it would be another 4-6 years and some schools might wonder why your spouse would not just finish her PhD at the current school and why you did not stay and complete your own PhD. That is, I do think "quitting" a current grad school will count against you and but also that you both stayed at this school for so long (both of you quitting right after your Masters would be a bit different).

But it sounds like there are severe issues with the current graduate program that is prompting you both to leave! One thing that can really help your application would be the strength of your LORs from your current program. Since it sounds like there are issues, this might be tricky, but I think securing 3 really strong LORs will make all of the difference in this case. As you say, you want to show that what happened at this school won't happen at the next school and if you can get this idea confirmed in the LORs, this would be very important.

I think it is a very very good idea to apply to a large number of schools when you are trying to get two people to the same place. One word of warning though, smaller programs might have fewer spots for students, so it might be difficult for them to admit two people both in AMO. Also, you are both "risky" because of your history, so a school might be hesitant to admit two students that are "risky". So my main advice would be to be a little bit more flexible and strategic when choosing your school locations. I must admit, I am not familiar with US schools so I do not know where all 17 schools on your list are.

But, if all 17 schools are in 17 different cities, then this makes it harder. Instead, maybe you want to consider picking some cities with more than one school and then applying to all of the schools within that city. That way, you can get admitted to different schools but still be in the same city. This will greatly increase the odds that you are both accepted into a graduate program and that you are both living in the same city. 

[rising_star]

Honestly, applying to 20 schools seems like a bad idea, as does applying to a bunch of lower-ranked programs. I'm not sure what your goals are, or what your wife's goals are, but you might be better off trying to get into higher-ranked programs or those which have better outcomes for those following your intended career path. I also think that you should consider places where there are multiple universities you could potentially attend, like Los Angeles, Chicago, NYC, DC-MD-VA, Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, etc. That would make it possible for both of you to go to graduate school even if you aren't both admitted into the same program. You should probably also contact prospective advisors to see if they have openings in their labs and funding available. That may narrow down the number of schools you're applying to.

It sounds like you're in a tough situation. You didn't say anything about your LORs but that's going to be crucial for your success. You and your wife will both need strong, positive recommendation letters from physicists at your current institution. In those letters, they also should talk about how your research interests aren't a good fit for the current program and that you would benefit from going elsewhere so those interests can be better supported. If you can't get those letters, then it's really going to be an uphill slog for you and your wife.

[Chiron]

I think it is great that both of you have finished your qualifying exams at your current school. That will certainly count for you. However, as you mentioned, I also think that the fact that you have been in grad school for 5 years now will count against you. If you two are to start a new PhD program, it would be another 4-6 years and some schools might wonder why your spouse would not just finish her PhD at the current school and why you did not stay and complete your own PhD. That is, I do think "quitting" a current grad school will count against you and but also that you both stayed at this school for so long (both of you quitting right after your Masters would be a bit different).

But it sounds like there are severe issues with the current graduate program that is prompting you both to leave! One thing that can really help your application would be the strength of your LORs from your current program. Since it sounds like there are issues, this might be tricky, but I think securing 3 really strong LORs will make all of the difference in this case. As you say, you want to show that what happened at this school won't happen at the next school and if you can get this idea confirmed in the LORs, this would be very important.

I think it is a very very good idea to apply to a large number of schools when you are trying to get two people to the same place. One word of warning though, smaller programs might have fewer spots for students, so it might be difficult for them to admit two people both in AMO. Also, you are both "risky" because of your history, so a school might be hesitant to admit two students that are "risky". So my main advice would be to be a little bit more flexible and strategic when choosing your school locations. I must admit, I am not familiar with US schools so I do not know where all 17 schools on your list are.

But, if all 17 schools are in 17 different cities, then this makes it harder. Instead, maybe you want to consider picking some cities with more than one school and then applying to all of the schools within that city. That way, you can get admitted to different schools but still be in the same city. This will greatly increase the odds that you are both accepted into a graduate program and that you are both living in the same city. 

 

We hadn't thought too much about what was said in the LOR's by the professors. We know that they will clearly be very positive and encouraging, but we had not thought of them as one form of helping to convince the schools we apply to that this will not happen again. That is a very good idea, and we do have the sort of relationship where we can speak to them about this (although of course we can't tell them what to write). I'm sure they'll be willing to help with this in some way and we really appreciate this idea. Thanks.

 

Also, you have a very good point about smaller schools often having fewer spots available for incoming schools. We were aware of this, but hadn't thought about it too much. In that case do you have any recommendations for schools which we can add to this list (even if it means removing others) which are a good balance of likely available spots with difficulty in getting in. We provided the US News ranking of the schools we were considering, which serves as a rough guideline to how difficult they are to get in. Do you, or anyone else, have a sweet spot range you were thinking about?

 

In terms of applying to many schools in the same area, this may be difficult as it's often difficult to find similar ranked schools in the same area which all have good research opportunities. (If we are wrong about this please provide some thoughts on schools which you believe may be suitable). These schools would also need to be schools which, with the stats we provided above, you believe we stand some sort of a chance of being accepted to.

 

Anyway, your post was very very helpful and thought provoking. You gave us a lot of very helpful feedback, and helped us to see some more which we can do to increase the strength of our profiles. If you think of anything else, even if it's just questions or anything which passes through your mind, please let us know.

 

Thanks.

[Chiron]

Honestly, applying to 20 schools seems like a bad idea, as does applying to a bunch of lower-ranked programs. I'm not sure what your goals are, or what your wife's goals are, but you might be better off trying to get into higher-ranked programs or those which have better outcomes for those following your intended career path. I also think that you should consider places where there are multiple universities you could potentially attend, like Los Angeles, Chicago, NYC, DC-MD-VA, Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, etc. That would make it possible for both of you to go to graduate school even if you aren't both admitted into the same program. You should probably also contact prospective advisors to see if they have openings in their labs and funding available. That may narrow down the number of schools you're applying to.

It sounds like you're in a tough situation. You didn't say anything about your LORs but that's going to be crucial for your success. You and your wife will both need strong, positive recommendation letters from physicists at your current institution. In those letters, they also should talk about how your research interests aren't a good fit for the current program and that you would benefit from going elsewhere so those interests can be better supported. If you can't get those letters, then it's really going to be an uphill slog for you and your wife.

I would first like to thank you very much for your reply. Just like TakeruK's advice, yours was also very helpful. In fact, just like TakeruK you mentioned that our LOR's should, if possible, explain that what happened at our current school will not happen again. It makes since that, if possible, it could say that our interests are better supported elsewhere.

 

However, I'm not sure why you said that applying to 20 schools seems like a bad idea. Do you mean that there is a problem with applying to so many, or that you are worried we are not being careful enough about our selections? If that is the case, I can tell you that we are trying to be careful, and balance the quality of the groups there with the ranking (taking it to be a rough indicator of how likely we are to get in).

 

We would very much like to get into a higher ranked school. However, we worry that our profiles are not strong enough. Physics Phd is a very competitive field, and those schools tend to be very difficult to get into. Also, as I replied to TakeruK's post, I'm worried that getting into schools in the same area may be very difficult. It would be good as a fallback, but I don't know that it's anything we can definitively rely on. That said, it's certainly something to think about and we'll see if there are additional schools which fall into that criteria.

 

Please let us know of any other thoughts or questions which you have.

 

Thanks.

[TakeruK]

I think rising_star and I gave two different approaches to school selection. One thing we both pointed out is that lower ranked school doesn't always correspond to a more likely positive outcome for both of you. In addition to what was already said, I would also wonder whether or not starting all over again at a low ranked school is going to make much of a difference in the long run. I think you really have to evaluate the value of spending another 4-6 years in order to get e.g. a ranked 100 school PhD, or just finishing up your PhDs where you are now (it sounds like your wife is very close to finishing). 

Given that your current program is not a good fit at all, I am sure that moving to a different one will be an improvement. But as I said, is it an improvement that's worth 4-6 years of your lives? What are your long term career goals? Is moving the best way to achieve this? Or can you achieve this even with PhDs where you are now? Can the schools on your list lead you to what you want in the long run, or would it be just as hard to enter whatever career you want with a degree from e.g Oregon State as it is with your current school?

I don't think 20 schools is an unreasonable number to apply to if you have the so called "two body problem" and also the complication of quitting. In physics, most "traditional" students straight out of undergrad hoping to solve the "two body problem" routinely apply to 15+ schools, so for our field, I don't think 20 is that much of an outlier. However, going back to the point above, make sure that the 20 schools you do apply to will actually help you achieve your career goals. That is, applying to 20 carefully selected programs is fine, but just applying to 20 programs at random will probably not get you the result you want. Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough in US school names to tell you where to apply to. 

And finally, about applying to multiple schools in the same city (as rising_star suggested also): you said that it's tough to find cities with schools of similar ranks. However, have you two talked about or considered what would happen if you got into schools of different tiers/rankings? Just to use example numbers, I think it would still be worth it for both of you to apply to schools in the same city that might be ranked, say, 60th and 80th. Both of you should apply to both the rank-60 and rank-80 school and if only one of you gets into the rank-60 school and the other into the rank-80 school, you at least have that option. But this also depends a lot on what your priorities are, both in terms of your individual career goals but also your long term non-academic plans. For most academic couples I know (generally in the postdoc/faculty job phase), the couple will either choose a long distance relationship to give each partner the best opportunity possible, or the partner with the best offer on the table goes to that institution and the other partner gets whatever they can find as close to it as possible. The best option for you two of course is a very personal decision. But I think you should have that discussion (if you haven't already) before making this list of 20 schools.

 

[rising_star]

However, I'm not sure why you said that applying to 20 schools seems like a bad idea. Do you mean that there is a problem with applying to so many, or that you are worried we are not being careful enough about our selections? If that is the case, I can tell you that we are trying to be careful, and balance the quality of the groups there with the ranking (taking it to be a rough indicator of how likely we are to get in).

Apologies for not being clearer earlier. What I meant is that focusing so much on ranking doesn't seem like a good idea. You're trying to game the system but, that doesn't really work for graduate school. Students with excellent research experience get admitted to top schools and those same schools reject students with high GPA and GRE scores. There's really no way to know if you'd be competitive at higher ranked schools without knowing if the research fit is there and if the potential labs you'd be joining have funding for you. If there's no advisor or lab funding at the lower ranked school, then you probably aren't going to be admitted, even if your stats are above their averages for admitted students. Does that make sense?

What I saw from your list is that you've decided that no schools in the top 70 are right for you because you think you can't get in. The only way to guarantee you won't be admitted is by not applying in the first place. Applying to lower ranked schools isn't going to guarantee you admission anywhere. What it is more likely to do is limit your opportunities after graduation. If you're only applying to lower ranked schools (and you're already at a lower ranked school), you're really not going to enhance your options post-degree but you are going to spend a lot longer in school for what (seems to be) no real reason. If the research fit where you are isn't perfect, why not finish up, seek fellowship or postdoc opportunities elsewhere, and move on in a way that will allow you to enhance your career?

As TakeruK said, this is a huge gamble you and especially your wife are taking. Starting over after passing comprehensive exams is something most graduate students wouldn't do, in no small part because it means spending another couple of years repeating coursework you've already done. You might get lucky and be able to transfer in most of your coursework but you'd have to negotiate that with each potential school after being admitted. 

[juilletmercredi]

What I saw from your list is that you've decided that no schools in the top 70 are right for you because you think you can't get in. The only way to guarantee you won't be admitted is by not applying in the first place. Applying to lower ranked schools isn't going to guarantee you admission anywhere. What it is more likely to do is limit your opportunities after graduation. If you're only applying to lower ranked schools (and you're already at a lower ranked school), you're really not going to enhance your options post-degree but you are going to spend a lot longer in school for what (seems to be) no real reason. If the research fit where you are isn't perfect, why not finish up, seek fellowship or postdoc opportunities elsewhere, and move on in a way that will allow you to enhance your career?

As TakeruK said, this is a huge gamble you and especially your wife are taking. Starting over after passing comprehensive exams is something most graduate students wouldn't do, in no small part because it means spending another couple of years repeating coursework you've already done. You might get lucky and be able to transfer in most of your coursework but you'd have to negotiate that with each potential school after being admitted. 

This this this this this.

You say that one of the primary reasons that you are transferring out of your current program is because it is lower-ranked and there is not a lot of research going on there - no papers, limited opportunities. However, is transferring to another lower-ranked PhD program going to solve those problems? one reason that PhD programs earn lower ranks is precisely because of the lack of research opportunities compared to programs that are more well-regarded. Ranking isn't everything, of course, but general groupings of programs can sometimes indicate what kinds of research opportunities there are - and how productive faculty members are (although you should certainly check individually).

This is particularly important given that it sounds like your wife is ABD! There might be other, better options for you to increase your chances. For example, you could finish your PhD where you already are and them aim to apply for postdocs at well-reputed universities in cities with large clusters of universities (Boston, Research Triangle, Atlanta, etc.) You may then have to postdoc for a while or do more than one postdoc, but postdocs generally pay better than doctoral programs and may lead to a better quality of life than repeating a bunch of work you've basically already completed. Honestly, gunning for a postdoc to sort of elevate you over a lower-ranked PhD program sounds like a much better choice than starting over at a new PhD program. (I have a friend who essentially did this - she went to a PhD program in Germany that she claims was lower-ranked, so she spent several years as a postdoc and then research associate at the university I was a graduate student - more than is customary in my field. She got two great offers last year, and took one.)

Your career goals are important here, too. Do you and your wife both want academia? If so, and you already have a two-body problem complicating matters, you're going to frankly want to go to the best-ranked program you can (with the best advisor, of course). It'll give you more flexibility on the back end to try to solve that two-body problem if you are both applying to academic jobs in the same areas.