Attorney to MPA/MPP?

[rightgolefts]

Hi All,

First time poster, what a great and helpful website! I am currently a litigation attorney in the public sector. I'm hoping to apply in the next application cycle but I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on how this type of work experience would be viewed by top MPA/MPP programs. It seems like this is a different trajectory into these programs than most. My goal in getting the degree would be to get the training to enter a management position in a legal non-profit or work on the policy side of criminal justice reform (currently working on the ground level in criminal justice, not seeing a lot of reform...) I see a number of attorneys transition into these roles without the MPA or MPP degree but I feel like having the education would be pretty important in order to be the most effective in these positions.

Thanks!

[Shamon]

Hello rightgolefts,

Welcome to the community! As an MPP alum, I can tell you that these programs are so versatile that there is no traditional trajectory. In fact, my cohort included engineers. One factor that  adcoms will consider is a passion for public service and I think that is something you can demonstrate given your work experience in the public sector and your intention to steer a non-profit.

You will learn some analytical skills in an MPP program like program evaluation (STATA or spss), budgeting, policy analysis and microeconomics and perhaps these quant skills will be valuable for the type of managerial positions you are aiming for. Occasionally some schools will offer courses on non-profit management. The extent of managerial training you will receive will come largely from practicums or case competitions that you would seek out on your own. I would argue an MBA puts more focus on management.

And as someone who is now on the job market, my perception is that recruiters for management positions give precedence to years of experience over an advanced degree. Plus, majority of my cohort entered the program with little work experience - about 0-3 years of work experience in entry-level and community-level jobs like Peace Corps. Many of them went on to work in state department or as policy analysts. So an MPP would be more appropriate if you wish to move on to the more policy-side of things (as opposed to management).

That's just my opinion from personal experience. I hope that helps.

[went_away]

I've known folks who who have traversed that path. I'd recommend you go the Ivy League route to get that extra sheen on your resume - SIPA, Woodrow Wilson, or Kennedy. 

[rightgolefts]

I've known folks who who have traversed that path. I'd recommend you go the Ivy League route to get that extra sheen on your resume - SIPA, Woodrow Wilson, or Kennedy. 

Did Ivy for law school. Assuming that would help a little bit with applications to these places? My grades in the applicable classes were pretty good but my overall GPA wasn't super hot. Then again that's compared to my classmates, if my gpa was viewed in a vacuum it would probably look decent. I wasn't top of the class or anything. Went to a pretty reputable undergrad in the UK (not oxbridge). I got decent grades but nothing to speak of. My quant background is really thin. Would it be worth it to try to take some night classes at a community college before I apply?

Are the people you know in policy positions in DC?

Thanks!

[went_away]

Most are (diplomat/UN types and working on the hill) and there's also quite a lot of folks who go into private sector consulting (albeit primarily government services) coming out of public policy programs. Admissions to Ivy law degrees is considerably more competitive than public policy master's degrees (even the Kennedy School is dramatically easier to get into than top law programs), so I think you should be totally fine. The sad truth is public policy and international affairs master's degrees just don't have anywhere near the heft and impact on one's career that top MBA and law degrees do; admissions is commensurately less intense. So, the programs should like your profile and experience for admissions purposes  - for all but the most competitive programs you'll likely be considered a catch. Do keep in mind you're (most likely) migrating to a lower paid field and may need to take a considerable cut in income. Hopefully you don't have massive law school loans. 

With your legal career under your belt, you'll be viewed as a mid-career student, and grades/test scores should be less important. Quant - ya, might be smart to knock out intro to micro and macroeconomics if you haven't already; intro to statistics might also be smart to take if you're feeling ambitious (look at requirements/recommendations of the particular programs you're applying to). 

Finally, I'm not convinced that you would need an MPA/MPP to make this transition. You do sound ambitious though, so for max impact I'm not sure I'd recommend you look at any programs apart from Kennedy (if $$ is no object; it's expensive and they don't tend to offer any financial aid) or Woodrow Wilson (by far the best choice and have fantastic financial aid, but extremely competitive).  

Edited October 16, 2015 by went_away

[Ben414]

Most are (diplomat/UN types and working on the hill) and there's also quite a lot of folks who go into private sector consulting (albeit primarily government services) coming out of public policy programs. Admissions to Ivy law degrees is considerably more competitive than public policy master's degrees (even the Kennedy School is dramatically easier to get into than top law programs), so I think you should be totally fine. The sad truth is public policy and international affairs master's degrees just don't have anywhere near the heft and impact on one's career that top MBA and law degrees do; admissions is commensurately less intense. So, the programs should like your profile and experience for admissions purposes  - for all but the most competitive programs you'll likely be considered a catch. Do keep in mind you're (most likely) migrating to a lower paid field and may need to take a considerable cut in income. Hopefully you don't have massive law school loans. 

With your legal career under your belt, you'll be viewed as a mid-career student, and grades/test scores should be less important. Quant - ya, might be smart to knock out intro to micro and macroeconomics if you haven't already; intro to statistics might also be smart to take if you're feeling ambitious (look at requirements/recommendations of the particular programs you're applying to). 

Finally, I'm not convinced that you would need an MPA/MPP to make this transition. You do sound ambitious though, so for max impact I'm not sure I'd recommend you look at any programs apart from Kennedy (if $$ is no object; it's expensive and they don't tend to offer any financial aid) or Woodrow Wilson (by far the best choice and have fantastic financial aid, but extremely competitive).  

I disagree that top law schools are dramatically harder to get into than HKS.  Cornell and Columbia are 90+% a numbers game. and even Harvard is probably 80+% a numbers game.  If you have stellar stats (3.9+ GPA, 174+ LSAT), you probably have a 80+% of getting into Harvard regardless of the rest of your profile.  If you have a 3.9 GPA and a 168/168 GRE, you're probably not getting into HKS if you don't have at least solid work experience.  The admissions are different.  I agree law school admissions are more difficult in general because they require much higher test scores, but it can depend on the individual applicant.  I'm pointing this out because this person would be a very strong applicant if he can show that he has sufficient work/academic experience that can be relevant to his field of interest, and that last part is necessary.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Ben414

[went_away]

Ben414,

From a quick look at the admissions rates it looks like it's about twice as difficult to gain admissions to H/Y/S Law School (aprox. 10%) as it is to HKS (aprox. 20%). Those stellar stats you cite are in the 99th percentile range (174+ LSAT certainly is), so certainly not indicative that the 'numbers game' makes admissions any easier. I get your point that HKS *may* have a more holistic admissions process and good work experience there is likely more important than for law school. But if anything I would see that as an argument for the relative easiness of getting into a top public policy program vs. law school as there are considerably more ways to obtain interesting work experience than there are to get a top LSAT score.

My analysis is also colored by my interactions with numerous extremely stressed out law school applicants and grads vs. the relatively relaxed applicants to HKS and other top public policy programs who indicate that they enjoy a much more enjoyable work/life balance. One final point - median starting salaries from public policy programs certainly diverge quite a lot, but $80,000-$100,000 would be at the very top of the scale. Compare this to median starting salary of (albeit heavily indebted) top law grads that are in the $100,000-$150,000 range, indicating that - numbers aside - the quality of the incoming student body is quite high, thus upping the competition.  Of course, these are very different different student bodies and not really comparable, but I strongly stand by my assertion that gaining admissions to an HKS master's program is dramatically easier than a top law school.  

[Ben414]

Ben414,

From a quick look at the admissions rates it looks like it's about twice as difficult to gain admissions to H/Y/S Law School (aprox. 10%) as it is to HKS (aprox. 20%). Those stellar stats you cite are in the 99th percentile range (174+ LSAT certainly is), so certainly not indicative that the 'numbers game' makes admissions any easier. I get your point that HKS *may* have a more holistic admissions process and good work experience there is likely more important than for law school. But if anything I would see that as an argument for the relative easiness of getting into a top public policy program vs. law school as there are considerably more ways to obtain interesting work experience than there are to get a top LSAT score.

My analysis is also colored by my interactions with numerous extremely stressed out law school applicants and grads vs. the relatively relaxed applicants to HKS and other top public policy programs who indicate that they enjoy a much more enjoyable work/life balance. One final point - median starting salaries from public policy programs certainly diverge quite a lot, but $80,000-$100,000 would be at the very top of the scale. Compare this to median starting salary of (albeit heavily indebted) top law grads that are in the $100,000-$150,000 range, indicating that - numbers aside - the quality of the incoming student body is quite high, thus upping the competition.  Of course, these are very different different student bodies and not really comparable, but I strongly stand by my assertion that gaining admissions to an HKS master's program is dramatically easier than a top law school.  

Having personally communicated with a HLS admissions staffer who recently left to go into law school admissions consulting and numerous HLS students, I can attest that HKS is absolutely, unequivocally more holistic in its admissions.  I also never said that the numbers game is easier; in fact, I explicitly stated it was harder and used the example of "stellar" stats which makes it obvious I was talking about the very top test achievers.  Regardless of whether it's merely more difficult or dramatically more difficult or whatever word we use, it is different.  The main point of my post is to alert the OP that stellar stats does not guarantee admission to HKS whereas it basically does for all Ivy League law schools other than Yale and the Ivy-equivalent Stanford.  He should be a strong candidate if he has or can get good, relevant work experience, but he can't count on GPA and test scores alone.

[rightgolefts]

The discussion between ben414 and went_away is sort of the chief reason I came on here looking for advice! During undergrad I did not get any of the internships/work experience that would have made me competitive for one of these programs. Lucky for me, law school gave me the opportunities and the funding to be able to jump in head first into the public sector world. I think I just said that I was in the public sector above. To be more specific, I'm a public defender. I work for a non-profit that has a contract to provide criminal defense for those who can't afford to hire a lawyer. I would think that a few years of doing this sort of work would make me competitive for an MPA/MPP program but I'm not sure. Would this qualify as good/relevant work experience?

Law school admissions is really pretty numbers based, I don't know if that makes it more or less difficult to gain admission to a top program, I do know that it definitely makes it easier to figure out what your chances of getting into a top program are. My first impression is that work experience is much more important than GRE and GPA, but I'm guessing that you still need to have a pretty great GPA and GRE for the top programs regardless of work experience.

At went_away:

One of the things that interested me in these programs was the fact that it seemed like a lot of the people in management or in policy positions didn't actually have the degrees. Especially those that started in law. On the management side of things I can tell you that all of the non-profits I interned for or worked for had seasoned lawyers at the helm. Great people and great lawyers, but it seems like someone with specialized management training at the helm might be able to avoid some of the issues that I see. On that note, I guess I'm also wondering about the intrinsic value of these programs. If I'm just trying to be a better manager would it be worth it to try and get into an executive MPA at Baruch? Or is the bulk of what you are paying for with the program the network and potential career advancement?

I'm not sure how applicable this is to the policy side of things but my thoughts on the MPP were that I'd probably need the degree/network to get me access to the institutes that I would be interested in working for.

You mentioned WWS, HKS and SIPA. Is Wagner on the radar? What about Goldman?

 

Thanks a ton everyone!

[went_away]

Having personally communicated with a HLS admissions staffer who recently left to go into law school admissions consulting and numerous HLS students, I can attest that HKS is absolutely, unequivocally more holistic in its admissions.  I also never said that the numbers game is easier; in fact, I explicitly stated it was harder and used the example of "stellar" stats which makes it obvious I was talking about the very top test achievers.  Regardless of whether it's merely more difficult or dramatically more difficult or whatever word we use, it is different.  The main point of my post is to alert the OP that stellar stats does not guarantee admission to HKS whereas it basically does for all Ivy League law schools other than Yale and the Ivy-equivalent Stanford.  He should be a strong candidate if he has or can get good, relevant work experience, but he can't count on GPA and test scores alone.

I agree; stats alone definitely aren't gonna cut it for HKS. 

[went_away]

The discussion between ben414 and went_away is sort of the chief reason I came on here looking for advice! During undergrad I did not get any of the internships/work experience that would have made me competitive for one of these programs. Lucky for me, law school gave me the opportunities and the funding to be able to jump in head first into the public sector world. I think I just said that I was in the public sector above. To be more specific, I'm a public defender. I work for a non-profit that has a contract to provide criminal defense for those who can't afford to hire a lawyer. I would think that a few years of doing this sort of work would make me competitive for an MPA/MPP program but I'm not sure. Would this qualify as good/relevant work experience?

Law school admissions is really pretty numbers based, I don't know if that makes it more or less difficult to gain admission to a top program, I do know that it definitely makes it easier to figure out what your chances of getting into a top program are. My first impression is that work experience is much more important than GRE and GPA, but I'm guessing that you still need to have a pretty great GPA and GRE for the top programs regardless of work experience.

At went_away:

One of the things that interested me in these programs was the fact that it seemed like a lot of the people in management or in policy positions didn't actually have the degrees. Especially those that started in law. On the management side of things I can tell you that all of the non-profits I interned for or worked for had seasoned lawyers at the helm. Great people and great lawyers, but it seems like someone with specialized management training at the helm might be able to avoid some of the issues that I see. On that note, I guess I'm also wondering about the intrinsic value of these programs. If I'm just trying to be a better manager would it be worth it to try and get into an executive MPA at Baruch? Or is the bulk of what you are paying for with the program the network and potential career advancement?

I'm not sure how applicable this is to the policy side of things but my thoughts on the MPP were that I'd probably need the degree/network to get me access to the institutes that I would be interested in working for.

You mentioned WWS, HKS and SIPA. Is Wagner on the radar? What about Goldman?

 

Thanks a ton everyone!

You sound competitive for HKS level, but - barring working for a gold-plated name brand employer - you're gonna have to up your game in the application and demonstrate how beyond doing laudable and interesting work in your field, you're doing work with impact beyond you're immediate environment, taking leadership, and clearly setting yourself up for great success in the future, and also generally demonstrating a healthy trajectory in the narrative of your work experience.  

I think you're taking the correct approach by viewing the value of the degree somewhat intrinsically, particularly as you've noticed those who are have risen to the top of your desired field generally do not have the MPA/MPP (this is true in many fields, come to think of it; amassing power is what counts most ultimately). 

Most, but not all, of my knowledge of public policy programs bleeds over from my research into those that are also well known in the International Affairs world (maybe why I see so many things through the lens of power struggles). I know Wagner and Goldman come up quite a lot in these discussions, but wouldn't be able to give advice on those particular programs. What I can tell you is to look first for brand name and school power (there it is again), and next at the specialty strengths of the program. Rankings are generally the best method for assessing school strength, but you also have to judge the rankings. Poets and Quants is a great site (albeit for MBAs) to start thinking critically about the methodological aspect of rankings and what you should and should not pay attention to. 

One last thought - I would caution you to think clearly about doing an executive format program as a career change strategy. Even the best of these programs are designed to aid established professionals in consolidating themselves in pre-existing careers and really aren't set up to help anyone make a big change. Probably better to save the non-residential EMPA type programs till after you've already made your desired change. I actually did that type of program format as a career changer in my own field and it's worked out for me, but it's been incredibly difficult and I know absolutely no one else from my top-tier program that has successfully made a whole-sale career change out of it. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by went_away

[rightgolefts]

Disclaimer: below I oversimplify what a public defender career track is and what a public defender does. I in no way mean to disparage the profession. I believe that public defenders make a very positive impact on a lot of people's lives. I'm just looking into making an impact in a different way.

As far as career trajectory, leadership and making a greater impact; my job is really kind of unique. Forward progression consists pretty much of exclusively handling more trials and more serious cases. You do that until you are handling homicides, and then you just handle serious cases until you retire. Some would argue that maybe going from the trial level up to appellate level is a sort of upward climb but many would disagree. There isn't really the opportunity for me to like start a project and lead it within the bounds of my non-profit. There are boards that I could be a member of that try to influence policy makers, I was actually a student member of one. None of the people on those boards had any policy education though. I'm guessing that hitting these boards/committees is going to be kind of a must. Would doing something different like joining and working with a local rotary club or something be helpful?

The desire to make a greater/wider impact is the main reason why I am looking into these programs. I feel like someone with the quant background gained by these degrees would be in a greater position to get necessary funding from the folks that pull the purse strings (simply having the degree on my resume would probably help here). My view is that getting more funding and being an effective manager would allow me to create a greater impact than I would even if I was the world's best trial lawyer. I also think that having my ground level perspective would put me in a good position to know the kinds of policy changes that would really help if I were to be in a policy making (or recommending) position. Changing the policy that created mandatory minimums is what I'm looking to do as opposed to helping an individual navigate a system with those mandatory minimums. Maybe I'm just being naive and maybe I don't understand the value of these graduate programs, but that's why I'm on this forum!

I'll go ahead and just list the career paths I would like for the degree to put me on:

- A position at a think tank or as some other kind of policy analysis job in DC trying to push criminal justice reform (I could really use some direction on what the actual opportunities are like here, maybe lobbying?)

- Manage a legal non-profit

- Manage another sort of non-profit with a social justice mission

- Work in state or local government

- And, although it totally breaks with the narrative, I'd be interested in transitioning into IR/diplomacy work potentially. After spending all of my undergrad in Europe, I've kept up an armchair interest in foreign affairs.

I really appreciate anyone taking the time to read all of this and help me out. Any further tips on how to make this happen or if I am way off base in thinking an MPA/MPP program will open up these career paths too me would be really appreciated! Thanks!!!