Worst program ever

[mr479]

I am in the worst SLP program. 2nd years took a practice Praxis, and NO ONE passed. That's not all. The faculty are also extremely hateful. A colleague of mine just had a baby, and a professor literally told her to her face she would have waitlisted her if she had known she was pregnant. What to do? What should I do? Is switching programs impossible and/or a bad idea? 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Pennsatucky

[Jolie717]

Putting the 2nd year students' practice Praxis aside, as well as your classmate who just had a baby, what specifically do YOU not like about the program?  

In in my previous degree, most of us failed our first practice board exam - that's why it was "practice."  In our specific degree, what was tested differed significantly from what we learned in our clinical practice.  So we all had to learn how to take the test the way they wanted us to take the test.  Just like any other type of test, especially standardized, there is a method.  You practice and you get better.  What is your school's *actual* Praxis passing rate?  That is what I would be more concerned about.  

As far as having a baby - I did that during my previous program but timed the delivery for my winter break.  It was still very, very difficult to return to full-time classes 7 weeks post-delivery, so I can imagine that having a baby during the semester will definitely pose some major challenges.  I don't condone the way your professor spoke to your classmate, but can certainly understand the professor's concern.

[jmk]

I would also make a pro-con list after you've had a few nights rest past your initial frustrations you recently encountered. 

I had a friend last year that found herself in a similar situation of being unhappy with her program. She ended up sticking with the program due to being disappointed that many other universities would accept little or even none of her credits from her first year, so if she left she essentially would have "wasted" a year. 

Some questions to address would be do you have the money, and want to put the time, into essentially starting over? What about your program is not meeting your expectations and hopes? Is it impacting your mental health negatively? 

& as Jolie said, I would more concerned with the actual Praxis rate, not the practice. 

[mr479]

I don't think it was within the professor's rights at all to say what she said, and I wish there were consequences. But as students who work for free, we have very few rights of our own.

I don't like the program because there are numerous such instances of which the examples above are just a few. In addition, the faculty use scare tactics on a daily basis. We walk around in constant fear with the threat of dismissal hovering over us, which doesn't make for a very pleasant environment. I personally have learned to ignore the faculty and spend as little time around them as possible. I think they are insane, mean-spirited, and incompetent. A few of our names were removed from the audiology sign up sheet because we signed in pen instead of pencil, and our punishment is that we cannot sign up for anymore until next semester. They seem to care more about teaching us our place, reminding us that were are just "students", and less about things of value and substance. They treat us like children, when in reality, the only ones acting like children are them.

Personally, I am no longer excited about becoming a speech-language pathologist. I thought my grad experience would be challenging, stimulating, thought-provoking. It seems that speech-language pathology isn't a very difficult field and that speech-language pathologists are just glorified elementary school teachers. I look forward to having a Master's degree, but I don't think that will be something to be proud of knowing full well I do not possess Master's level knowledge. Perhaps all programs in the United States are this basic, and that's sad. In addition, my program does not offer the option of a thesis or research project. The only capstone is the practice praxis which nobody passed.

Does anyone have experience transferring programs? Is it difficult to gain admission to another school? I imagine that it is. I know most programs only take up to 9 hours of transfer credit as well.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Pennsatucky

[mr479]

And thank you @jmk and @Jolie717. Your responses were great, insightful, and very helpful!

[Jolie717]

I don't think it was within the professor's rights at all to say what she said, and I wish there were consequences. But as students who work for free, we have very few rights of our own.

I don't like the program because there are numerous such instances of which the examples above are just a few. In addition, the faculty use scare tactics on a daily basis. We walk around in constant fear with the threat of dismissal hovering over us, which doesn't make for a very pleasant environment. I personally have learned to ignore the faculty and spend as little time around them as possible. I think they are insane, mean-spirited, and incompetent. A few of our names were removed from the audiology sign up sheet because we signed in pen instead of pencil, and our punishment is that we cannot sign up for anymore until next semester. They seem to care more about teaching us our place, reminding us that were are just "students", and less about things of value and substance. They treat us like children, when in reality, the only ones acting like children are them.

Personally, I am no longer excited about becoming a speech-language pathologist. I thought my grad experience would be challenging, stimulating, thought-provoking. It seems that speech-language pathology isn't a very difficult field and that speech-language pathologists are just glorified elementary school teachers. I look forward to having a Master's degree, but I don't think that will be something to be proud of knowing full well I do not possess Master's level knowledge. Perhaps all programs in the United States are this basic, and that's sad. In addition, my program does not offer the option of a thesis or research project. The only capstone is the practice praxis which nobody passed.

Does anyone have experience transferring programs? Is it difficult to gain admission to another school? I imagine that it is. I know most programs only take up to 9 hours of transfer credit as well.

Well now that you've elaborated it certainly doesn't sound like a program I would wish to be in either.  I know there are plenty of challenging Masters SLP programs out there - maybe you would be better suited working in a hospital setting as an SLP?  And if you thrive on academic challenge - why not consider a PhD program?  I'm sorry I can't offer advice as to transferring - I assume you have to stick it out through the end of the semester at least, right?  

I would focus on finishing out the semester as strongly as you can.  Maybe get in touch with some of your letter of rec writers and ask their advice - I assume whether or not you are treated as a transfer or a new student you will have to get apps in soon if you want to start classes next Fall in a new program.  I noticed that your current school's ranking is too low to even be published on the U.S. News list - I don't think rankings are everything but they do mean something.  So I wouldn't lump all SLP programs into the same category as your current one.  I have several friends who hated their first university experience and transferred out as well - you certainly aren't alone!

[CBG321]

Hello is your program in Oklahoma?  I understand not wanting to put names but I'd love to avoid a program like that!  And this is just my opinion, but I think students shouldn't always be expected to "suck it up" and deal with terrible programs ONLY because this is such a competitive field.  If you have an opportunity in the future and don't have any fear of retribution I think it would help future students if you reported this conduct to ASHA's accreditation body.  This is not what our field stands for and if everyone in your program (or anyone for that matter) is being treated with a lack of respect I think it should be reported.  It's unethical in this field and the code of conduct does not just apply to SLP's in the professional world but the academic as well!

Sorry you're having such a rough go at grad school.  This field is competitive enough without negative programs for what is supposed to be an incredibly positive field!  Makes me happy I visited most of my programs in person!  

[CBG321]

 

Personally, I am no longer excited about becoming a speech-language pathologist. I thought my grad experience would be challenging, stimulating, thought-provoking. It seems that speech-language pathology isn't a very difficult field and that speech-language pathologists are just glorified elementary school teachers. I look forward to having a Master's degree, but I don't think that will be something to be proud of knowing full well I do not possess Master's level knowledge. Perhaps all programs in the United States are this basic, and that's sad. In addition, my program does not offer the option of a thesis or research project. The only capstone is the practice praxis which nobody passed.

Does anyone have experience transferring programs? Is it difficult to gain admission to another school? I imagine that it is. I know most programs only take up to 9 hours of transfer credit as well.

Just saw this part and NO NO NO NO!  Most graduate programs are NOT preparing you to be glorified teachers.  A lot of programs are extremely academically rigorous and challenging on an intellectual level.  If you're doing things right research wise or really investing in your clients I wouldn't label this field as "easy" (opposite of difficult) nor would I attribute that label to anyone that is an elementary teacher either but I digress...  

And I can say my undergraduate program is anything but "basic" so I feel like you just had some really bad luck in your graduate program and perhaps undergraduate experience if this is your view of the field now.  I know this may not be helpful for your current state in your disappointing program but I wanted to let you know that your experience is NOT a reflection of the field or graduate programs as a whole.  I have never before heard anyone come close to referring to their program as "basic."  I hope you are able to find something to either turn around your view of the field or find an education that stands up more to your expectations.  It really sucks that your program has left you with this impression and that they are treating you and your classmates so horribly.

 

Good luck!!

 

[mr479]

Hello is your program in Oklahoma?  I understand not wanting to put names but I'd love to avoid a program like that!

Yes it is. Are you? 

[mr479]

Just saw this part and NO NO NO NO!  Most graduate programs are NOT preparing you to be glorified teachers.  A lot of programs are extremely academically rigorous and challenging on an intellectual level.  If you're doing things right research wise or really investing in your clients I wouldn't label this field as "easy" (opposite of difficult) nor would I attribute that label to anyone that is an elementary teacher either but I digress...  

And I can say my undergraduate program is anything but "basic" so I feel like you just had some really bad luck in your graduate program and perhaps undergraduate experience if this is your view of the field now.  I know this may not be helpful for your current state in your disappointing program but I wanted to let you know that your experience is NOT a reflection of the field or graduate programs as a whole.  I have never before heard anyone come close to referring to their program as "basic."  I hope you are able to find something to either turn around your view of the field or find an education that stands up more to your expectations.  It really sucks that your program has left you with this impression and that they are treating you and your classmates so horribly.

 

Good luck!!

 

I am happy you are having such a positive experience. It sounds like you are in a great place and should stay put if you can. When I did my observations, the clinicians I observed seemed to do everything but evidence based practice. And then when I heard that recent interview on NPR with a speech pathologist on upspeak and vocal fry, I just cringed. So you're right, currently my impression on the profession is not a very positive one. I would like to be that alternative voice to the horrors I have witnessed, but is it really worth it? 

Students in my program receive mixed messages. Everyone who did their undergrad here (which constitutes the majority of my cohort) believe that our program is the absolute best in the state of Oklahoma, that our students are in high demand, and that the rest of us should feel privileged to be in the program we are. Students from other undergraduate programs feel differently. One of my friend's supervisors told her at the end of her internship that she heard our school wasn't very good. Maybe this is an indirect way of saying, "I wasn't very impressed with your performance here," but either way, ouch. 

I don't think there is a protocol for reporting negative experiences to ASHA, although I would be more than happy to do so. I think I am one of the few who would, although I can confidently say that the majority of my cohort is as frustrated/discouraged as me. Amongst ourselves, we lament the incompetence of one of our instructors (who cancels class on a regular basis), and just yesterday I said to someone, "Well will you give them a bad review at the end of term then?" She replied, "Oh no, I would never do that." Unfortunately, I think this is how most people do things around here. I'm not used to that kind of passivity. 

This experience really is too bad to be true. I guess you'd have to experience it yourself to believe it. Hopefully, you won't have to.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Pennsatucky

[mr479]

And if you thrive on academic challenge - why not consider a PhD program?

 

But you shouldn't have to do a PhD to be challenged. I guarantee if I were doing this degree level elsewhere or even in another country the expectations would be greater and far more challenging. The only problem with studying in another country is postgraduate certification. 

[CBG321]

Yes it is. Are you? 

No, I drove through it looking at schools this summer though .  I'm on the west coast so maybe the fear of constantly being sued for malpractice or incompetence is what is keeping such programs out of the limelight here!  Half joking, i'd hope they would be ethical regardless but who knows!  (That isn't to say they don't exist, but while I don't believe my program is a perfect fit for my learning style/engagment interests.  They absolutely treat students with respect and shove evidence based practice down our throats (in a good way). 

[mr479]

No, I drove through it looking at schools this summer though .  

Where did you visit? Were there any that you liked? 

[CBG321]

On 10/20/2015 at 11:41 PM, Pennsatucky said:

I am happy you are having such a positive experience. It sounds like you are in a great place and should stay put if you can. When I did my observations, the clinicians I observed seemed to do everything but evidence based practice. And then when I heard that recent interview on NPR with a speech pathologist on upspeak and vocal fry, I just cringed. So you're right, currently my impression on the profession is not a very positive one. I would like to be that alternative voice to the horrors I have witnessed, but is it really worth it? 

Students in my program receive mixed messages. Everyone who did their undergrad here (which constitutes the majority of my cohort) believe that our program is the absolute best in the state of Oklahoma, that our students are in high demand, and that the rest of us should feel privileged to be in the program we are. Students from other undergraduate programs feel differently. One of my friend's supervisors told her at the end of her internship that she heard our school wasn't very good. Maybe this is an indirect way of saying, "I wasn't very impressed with your performance here," but either way, ouch. 

I don't think there is a protocol for reporting negative experiences to ASHA, although I would be more than happy to do so. I think I am one of the few who would, although I can confidently say that the majority of my cohort is as frustrated/discouraged as me. Amongst ourselves, we lament the incompetence of one of our instructors (who cancels class on a regular basis), and just yesterday I said to someone, "Well will you give them a bad review at the end of term then?" She replied, "Oh no, I would never do that." Unfortunately, I think this is how most people do things around here. I'm not used to that kind of passivity. 

This experience really is too bad to be true. I guess you'd have to experience it yourself to believe it. Hopefully, you won't have to.

Man i'm so frustrated on your behalf.  I'm not applying to my current program but feel like i've done enough research on the schools on my list to be alright, I visited most in person and spoke with students at them as well.  Most are very respected within the community and Professors at other program's told me how good they were so I'm counting on the variety of perspectives to be correct :).  

Perspective is everything I suppose, yes sheesh seems like they are full of negative accusations.  I would pursue that (complaint) if given an opportunity, might help future students or at least increase the respect you guys receive just a bit!  Oh wow, yeah most people in my program are very honest if the teacher did things unprofessionally, or they were dissatisfied for whatever reason.  Yeah around here it is a handful that would be dishonest in their reviews...

Oh I believe you, I just think it sucks.  Move to another state haha (easier said than done I am sure!!!) but hope you find a better path or something improves in the future!  It would suck to dive into something you aren't enjoying anymore! 

 

 

[Jolie717]

But you shouldn't have to do a PhD to be challenged. I guarantee if I were doing this degree level elsewhere or even in another country the expectations would be greater and far more challenging. The only problem with studying in another country is postgraduate certification. 

You are absolutely correct in saying that there should be SLP Masters programs that are challenging - in fact, the majority of SLP programs should be.  However if you really want to be intellectually challenged I would venture that a combination MA or MS /PhD might be a better fit for you.  If I were 5-10 years younger, that's what I would be pursuing.  Especially given the shortage of PhDs in our field.  That being said, I'm confident you will find a Masters program that is a good fit - you have great stats from what I remember and an obvious desire to learn.  Make that shine through in your new apps!

[SLPosteriorCricoarytenoid]

I am sorry you are in this situation. I happened to somehow end up back on good old grad cafe tonight and saw this post and had to respond. I am a current graduate student as well, and I can say with certainty that graduate school is THE most challenging, thought-provoking, and best learning experience I have ever had. In my time in graduate school so far, the faculty at my program seem to be polar opposites of how yours are. I've never worked with people who are so willing to help, teach, and provide students with great clinical experiences. I say this because what you are describing is not normal in the least. I apologize if someone already said it (I glazed over posts), but I sure hope that a program of this quality is not accredited by ASHA. If it is, it needs to be reported. This sounds like a hostile environment that is not preparing students for a meaningful career. If anything, my experience in graduate school so far has made me fall deeper in love with the field. I am ashamed that programs like yours are allowed to exist. What you are describing is in no way normal or acceptable. It is a shame that they are allowed to continue destroying students perceptions of the field and essentially bully students. Run as fast as you can... 

[mr479]

Of course it's accredited, or I wouldn't be here. And I'm almost positive that students have as little power with CAA as they do at their home institution. No one cares about an "unhappy" student.  

[esopha]

It's unfortunate that EEOC rules don't apply to graduate schools. If someone had made that kind of comment about a pregnant woman in the working world, that would be grounds for an EEOC claim. However, if what you're talking about is just the culture of the program, as cruddy as it is, you probably can't change it.

There are ways to file a complaint that will be more successful than other complaints. Look for granular, concrete details that you can use - the professor's comment about your pregnant colleague is one. PRAXIS pass rates (the actual test, not the practices) are used to determine accreditation, I believe. I imagine things like completed externships, program completion rate, and time to degree would also matter. If your program is truly toxic, I doubt everyone is going to be graduating in 2 or 3 years and going on to get jobs. Oh, and consider job placement rate as well.

If you write a level-headed, professional complaint citing the issues with the program that go beyond your "unhappiness," even though that's obviously an important concern, you'll likely be more successful.

The fact of the matter is, no one can tell if someone's individual unhappiness is because of their own attitude or because of real issues with their environment, which is why you have to remove yourself from the equation when you talk about these kinds of things and/or push back in any professional setting. If you lodge a complaint that indicates that a program may not be up to snuff in ASHA's eyes, or that a program is producing subpar clinicians, that would be something that would get notice.

I guess the choices you have to make are whether you want to stay with the program or not, and whether you want to file a complaint if you do. Those are all pretty sucky choices. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

[mr479]

These are all good points. Thank you. The praxis pass rates at my school have indeed fallen over the last few years to 80-85%. Now, everything is geared toward passing the Praxis. But learning to pass a standardized test is in my opinion not the same thing as getting a good education. This really is an unfortunate situation. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Pennsatucky

[TakeruK]

EEOC rules may not apply to graduate students as we are not employed, but as we are students of an educational institution, Title IX does apply to comments that discriminate on the basis of sex and create a hostile environment. My school's Title IX office does interpret discrimination based on pregnancy to be discrimination based on sex because denying resources to pregnant students means that one sex is disadvantaged compared to another. 

The way I understand it, the Obama administration has directed schools to apply Title IX more widely than just athletics. At my school, there is a major campaign of awareness than Title IX is more than just athletics and definitely more than just sexual assault or sexual violence. Here, it is about creating an equitable and hospitable climate for everyone, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation, gender expression or gender identity.

However, I do understand that not all Title IX offices in the United States are following these directives (in fact, many major schools are under investigation for failure to comply with Title IX). And some Title IX offices really do exist only to protect the school, not serve the students/community. It's your call of course on what is the best action for you. I just wanted to let you know that Title IX should be protecting students from this type of discrimination and that it may be the right place to go to.

[esopha]

Title IX has always applied to other aspects of education besides athletics (in fact, the original legislation doesn't mention athletics at all, but since athletics is a high source of income/publicity for a lot of schools, changes to athletics programs were highly visible), but I didn't realize that discrimination against pregnancies applied under Title IX. If it does qualify as a TitleIX violation, there are specific organizations and pro-bono legal initiatives that might be useful. Know Your IX is one of the better known, but it focuses on sexual assault. However, they may have options for students who are reporting other types of T IX violations.

[TakeruK]

I found something that backs up what I was saying, in case you were interested in something more concrete than a random internet person's thoughts :) http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/dcl-know-rights-201306-title-ix.html

[mr479]

Well, discrimination would be difficult to prove. And besides, it was only hypothetical. The pregnant student in question wasn't denied admission but might have been. I only mentioned my professor's comment to shed light on the type of people we're dealing with in our program. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with me. I empathize with her, but she would have to file a discrimination claim if she indeed felt discriminated against because of our professor's comment. 

[mr479]

P.S. Thank you for all the supportive information. I will indeed pass it on. 

[TakeruK]

1 hour ago, Pennsatucky said:

Well, discrimination would be difficult to prove. And besides, it was only hypothetical. The pregnant student in question wasn't denied admission but might have been. I only mentioned my professor's comment to shed light on the type of people we're dealing with in our program. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with me. I empathize with her, but she would have to file a discrimination claim if she indeed felt discriminated against because of our professor's comment. 

I know we are talking about a third party here and I'm not really advocating that you take one course of action or another, especially not on behalf of someone who may not want you to do anything.

But I do feel the need to clarify (in case it's useful for other readers or future situations): Title IX does protect against comments like "If I had known you were going to get pregnant, I would not have accepted you!" and other similar things like "I think women grad students are a bad idea because they get pregnant and leave". They do not have to be directed at any particular person and the pregnant student does not have to prove that the professor has done something to sabotage her (e.g. gave a poor grade just because she is pregnant). 

I believe that the comments mentioned here would contribute to creating an bad environment for pregnant students, and that is something actionable by the Title IX office. But not all actions by the Title IX office are punishments. At my school, the most common outcome is the Title IX office calling the professor (or whoever the offender was) into their office to have a conversation. Basically, it could be something like training/education to help the offender realise what they are doing wrong. Not everything the Title IX office does results in a full investigation with discipline.