Writing sample length: dealing with 3 apps that want a much shorter WS

[Contretramp]

The schools I'm applying for have a 15-20 pg writing sample requirement, except for a few with markedly shorter WS requirements. As I'm applying from outside of academia, I've spent 3 months writing a paper for these applications and it is 20 pages long. 

Toronto wants a WS "no longer than 15 pages", while Waterloo and Michigan ask for 5,000 word samples (~10 pages of my essay with current layout). 

Toronto and Michigan use language like "preferably no longer than". Michigan straight up says "don't send us anything longer."

What are your thoughts on this? It is a significant task to halve my essay - I'll essentially need to rewrite it.

What is the risk of sending a longer statement? I'm probably happier with them reading the first 5,000 words and stopping, than producing a potentially much worse short paper. But as this is 3/12 of my applications, perhaps the effort is worth it? I am worried as the WS feels like the centrepiece of the application, so I want it to be as good as possible. 

Anyone else in this situation?

[SamStone]

I am also in this situation. 

For the programs that request shorter papers, I plan to make a note at the beginning of the paper indicating something like: "I have submitted a full version of my essay, but because of the length requirements I recommend that the admission committee skip sections 2.2-2.5 and sections 4.1-4.2. These sections are important for the argument I am building, but can be skipped for reasons X, Y, Z"

However, I don't know if that is really the best idea. So, like you, I am curious what others might think about this...

[panpsychist]

In the same situation as well. 

[bob311]

I only applied for masters programs a few years ago (and really enjoyed my time at one), but some had really sort ws requirements. For those apps, I actually used a separate, smaller paper because if you are just taking a section out of a paper, it can read really weird. 

Also, I would recommend following directions. If it says no longer than X, do not try to pull a fast one and say skip this part. These schools have hundreds of apps for 5-10 seats. You do not want to put yourself on the back foot immediately because you couldn't follow directions. (Source: while doing my MA I worked with the admissions committee for MA and PHD apps). It doesn't reflect well that they ask for X and you give them Y. It might even get you placed into the rejection pile right away. Remember, schools are looking for reasons to not accept you no matter what they say. For some, its a GPA cutoff. For others, its certain undergrads. Don't force their hand.

[Contretramp]

3 hours ago, bob311 said:

Remember, schools are looking for reasons to not accept you no matter what they say. For some, its a GPA cutoff. For others, its certain undergrads. Don't force their hand.

Fair point. I think I will at least have a go at shortening my paper and see what the results are like. 

Thankfully, Waterloo (the school with the hardest limit) has the latest deadline (1 Feb).

Thanks bob311

[bob311]

15 minutes ago, jorou said:

Fair point. I think I will at least have a go at shortening my paper and see what the results are like. 

Thankfully, Waterloo (the school with the hardest limit) has the latest deadline (1 Feb).

Thanks bob311

ironically, the place I went for my MA I used an undergrad paper that was short enough and worked hard on it. Turns out that smaller paper got a way better reception than my longer writing sample. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a cutdown from a larger paper. 

[ABrown]

21 hours ago, jorou said:

Michigan straight up says "don't send us anything longer."

Jorou, where did you read this?  In the FAQ section on the department's website they seem to suggest that they are more flexible with the writing sample length:

"While we have no fixed requirements, it is a good idea to submit a sample of between 3,500 and 5,000 words since samples much shorter or longer that that might be counterproductive. We recommend that you send us an example of your philosophical writing at its very best since our admissions process places heavy emphasis on the quality of writing samples."  (http://lsa.umich.edu/philosophy/graduates/prospective-students/admissions-faq.html)

[Contretramp]

4 minutes ago, ABrown said:

Jorou, where did you read this?

I mixed up my schools - it is Waterloo with the hard line approach:

" For your writing sample, a philosophy paper of around 2500 words is desirable; longer and shorter papers are acceptable too, but please don't send anything longer than 5,000 words." 

[Cromulent Flurp]

 

I asked Duke about that last year, as they had a limit of 15 pages and my sample was much longer. The DGS replied,  "That's fine. Just add a cover note saying which 15 pages people should read if they are only going to read 15 pages." My note said something like "My writing sample is longer than the suggested 15 pages. I would be grateful if the committee, if unable to read the entire sample, would read pages y-z." I'm sure that something like that wouldn't count against you at all, especially if the sections you asked to be read are contiguous (you wouldn't want to make them have to read a couple of pages here, a couple there, etc.). 

This year my writing sample is really long, 12,000 words, but as it was published in a good journal I'm just going to send them the published version, hoping that it being published will mean that the length doesn't matter so much. My other published paper is only 4000 words, a much better length for most applications, but it isn't anywhere near as good and is only a response piece. 

[PorchlightPhilosopher]

...Will they angrily decry us as self-absorbed heathens who are unwilling to follow directions if our writing sample is roughly 1,000 words over in the context of being 8,000 words when "about 7,000" is what is asked for? 

Edited December 14, 2015 by PorchlightPhilosopher

[bob311]

2 hours ago, PorchlightPhilosopher said:

...Will they angrily decry us as self-absorbed heathens who are unwilling to follow directions if our writing sample is roughly 1,000 words over in the context of being 8,000 words when "about 7,000" is what is asked for? 

Potentially yes. Depends on the department. My department really disliked when someone didn't follow directions. Really hurt their apps.

[maxhgns]

3 hours ago, PorchlightPhilosopher said:

...Will they angrily decry us as self-absorbed heathens who are unwilling to follow directions if our writing sample is roughly 1,000 words over in the context of being 8,000 words when "about 7,000" is what is asked for? 

 

Your paper would be 14% longer than the limit. That's a lot. 

[perpetuavix]

As another data point, I submitted an 18 page writing sample to every program I applied to, with no note about what to read if adcoms didn't feel like reading the whole thing. The programs where I was admitted were programs that requested 8-12 page writing samples. It may depend on who's on the committee in a given year, but it's not obviously a disqualifier to go over the page limit. There is almost certainly an upper limit on what's reasonable to send, although what it is, I don't know. 

[SamStone]

2 hours ago, perpetuavix said:

The programs where I was admitted were programs that requested 8-12 page writing samples. 

 which programs request writing samples that short?!

[pecado]

If you can, make a shorter article. Your text probably has many "parts" you can identify, perhaps in one place you talk about X argument, and in another one you talk about Y argument. Select the most important argument, and make a short version around that argument. This is very easy, as you already know the theme and you have worked a lot on it, and you will probably need to only copy that section, and rewrite the beginning and the ending.

You can mention that it is part of a longer work.

I honestly think that it is far more important to demonstrate a magnificent arguing ability, to show that you know how to research, and to show that you can make original criticisms and original proposals. If you do that, the length might be irrelevant.

Edited December 15, 2015 by pecado

[SamStone]

On December 9, 2015 at 1:12 PM, jorou said:

What are your thoughts on this? It is a significant task to halve my essay - I'll essentially need to rewrite it.

Just FYI: Since you originally posted your question, and since I am having a similar question, I emailed some departments about this. Most of them said something to the effect of "go ahead and submit the paper." A couple of the programs told me that it might be a good idea to indicate a section that can be skipped if some of the members of the admission committee does not want to read more than the requested limit. However, one program told me to upload my full writing sample, and that they are "quite happy to read slightly longer papers" (and my paper is just over 7500 words, while they ask for "roughly 6000 words").

So, in case you haven't already, I definitely recommend just emailing the department and seeing how they feel about it. 

[StFrancisXavier]

My profs have advised me to ignore the suggestions for writing sample length, and to just send in the proofs from a paper I published (about 23 single spaced pages or 12 000 words).  I guess it's a bit of a double edged sword: on the one hand, it's nice to have it in the journal's type setting, and there may be implicit bias knowing that it is a published paper; on the other, some departments may throw it out right off the bat for not meeting their requirements.

What are your thoughts? 

[philstudent1991]

5 hours ago, StFrancisXavier said:

My profs have advised me to ignore the suggestions for writing sample length, and to just send in the proofs from a paper I published (about 23 single spaced pages or 12 000 words).  I guess it's a bit of a double edged sword: on the one hand, it's nice to have it in the journal's type setting, and there may be implicit bias knowing that it is a published paper; on the other, some departments may throw it out right off the bat for not meeting their requirements.

What are your thoughts? 

Most departments ask for 12-25 double spaced or 5,000 max, right? So yours, double spaced, would be 46 and 12,000? Seems like that's really pushing it to me. They've got 300 apps to read (well, probably like 40 after the secretary throws out the ones not from PGR departments  ). No one's going to read 50 pages from one applicant, even if it's very good. If I were on the ad comm, I'd be annoyed, think you didn't bother to read the application instructions, and toss it. 

[SamStone]

 

19 hours ago, philstudent1991 said:

Most departments ask for 12-25 double spaced or 5,000 max, right? So yours, double spaced, would be 46 and 12,000? Seems like that's really pushing it to me. They've got 300 apps to read (well, probably like 40 after the secretary throws out the ones not from PGR departments  ). No one's going to read 50 pages from one applicant, even if it's very good. If I were on the ad comm, I'd be annoyed, think you didn't bother to read the application instructions, and toss it. 

I agree, 12000 words seems to be a stretch. Unless you are also indicating a section of the paper that you hope them to read...since most adcoms won't actually read the whole thing?

[AnotherKantFan]

Hi all,

I'm just going to add that I had the same problem with wanting to submit a writing sample which was a bit longer than the required length, and I've emailed some departments about this (Berkeley, Cambridge, and Toronto) - a Berkeley prof said he is unable to let me submit an abnormally long sample, whilst Cambridge & Toronto people suggested that I submit what I have and highlight the more important passages amounting to the right length - which I didn't do in the end, as I found this method rather odd and unhelpful. In the end and following my prof's advice, I deleted all the introductory chapters and summarised them in 2-3 pages

[philapgirl]

Does anyone have any thoughts on CUNY's "approx. 4000-5000 words"? My writing sample is around 6800 words and is 20 pages, which seems a bit long but I'm not sure if it's fine because they say "approx." 

I would hate to cut down 1800 words since I've already reduced it quite a bit from its original form. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by philapgirl

[philosophe]

On 12/26/2015 at 8:51 PM, philapgirl said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on CUNY's "approx. 4000-5000 words"? My writing sample is around 6800 words and is 20 pages, which seems a bit long but I'm not sure if it's fine because they say "approx." 

I would hate to cut down 1800 words since I've already reduced it quite a bit from its original form. 

I flat out ignored those directions. I don't really think it matters as long as it's 20 pgs or under.

[philapgirl]

56 minutes ago, philosophe said:

I flat out ignored those directions. I don't really think it matters as long as it's 20 pgs or under.

Same. I wrote a note saying which 15 pages were the most important. 

[dgswaim]

I went with a 12-pager. In trying to make an impression, my intuition was that a compact argument might be to my advantage. Easier to hold the whole argument in one's head that way. Or, that's my rationalization anyway, and I'm sticking to it! 

[thatsjustsemantics]

2 hours ago, dgswaim said:

I went with a 12-pager. In trying to make an impression, my intuition was that a compact argument might be to my advantage. Easier to hold the whole argument in one's head that way. Or, that's my rationalization anyway, and I'm sticking to it! 

4.2k words-ish checking in here. I'm hoping it's not too short, tbh.