Visiting during PhD?

[philapp]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering how much it matters (with respect to your future success in academia, for example, in getting a postdoc position, tenure etc.) if you go for a visit to top philosophy schools during your PhD. I am a PhD student in Europe. Any thoughts? Thank you. 

[rising_star]

Honestly, I can't see how it would. It would be far more important to meet people at conferences where they can hear you talk about your research and where you can engage them about theirs. That's where I see people making connections that lead to postdocs, invitations to apply for jobs, etc. As an applicant, I can't see what you could do or say that would help someone remember you for an opportunity 4-5 years down the road unless it's something negative that you do or say.

[fuzzylogician]

Are you hoping to get a job in Europe or in the US? At least in my field, I can imagine it being helpful to have connections in the US if that's where you want to get a job. Being a visiting student isn't the only way to build those connections, but if you can successfully start an advising relationship with someone influential and are able to sustain it once you leave so that you have a letter of recommendation from them and access to their network, that could help. That's something that I imagine is harder to do by just meeting people at conferences. But in general, being visible at conferences and such is probably more important. 

[maxhgns]

It can be useful inasmuch as it can help you to get a letter of recommendation from someone who is not from your home department, and who is a big enough deal in your AOS. It can also be a useful scholarly experience for you. For those reasons, though, you'd want to do that in the last few years of your program, when you have work already under way.

[philapp]

Thank you all for your reply. Let me mention that PhD in Europe is 3 years, and I am in my last year. Besides, one of my advisors is a pretty well-known philosopher in one of the top 3 schools in the States. We invited him for a talk last semester, and now I think maybe I can go there for a visit too. I think this is great opportunity since it is not available for everyone: there must be something about your work that you have been accepted for the visit. Now, if I am right (am I?), the visit would have a positive impact in my CV. What do you think?

A side note about conference attendance: I don’t see how meeting people at conferences help in getting a position for ‘philosophy’ students (This, of course, greatly helps ‘science’ students). The most important factor for philosophy students, as long as I know, is good publications. Thanks.  

 

 

[Glasperlenspieler]

18 minutes ago, philapp said:

A side note about conference attendance: I don’t see how meeting people at conferences help in getting a position for ‘philosophy’ students (This, of course, greatly helps ‘science’ students). The most important factor for philosophy students, as long as I know, is good publications. Thanks.  

 

Attendance by itself probably doesn't mean too much but if you go to a session and ask a killer question that forces the presenter to rethink the argument, then he or she will likely remember you. Or even just asking lots of insightful (and respectful) questions (especially at a smaller conference) tends to leave a good impression, and if you can follow that up with email/facebook contacts, then it's a good way to broaden your network. That's of course not enough to land you a position, but it certainly won't hurt and could potentially pay off down the road.

[philapp]

3 minutes ago, DerPhilosoph said:

 

Attendance by itself probably doesn't mean too much but if you go to a session and ask a killer question that forces the presenter to rethink the argument, then he or she will likely remember you. Or even just asking lots of insightful (and respectful) questions (especially at a smaller conference) tends to leave a good impression, and if you can follow that up with email/facebook contacts, then it's a good way to broaden your network. That's of course not enough to land you a position, but it certainly won't hurt and could potentially pay off down the road.

Asking question and following that up by email?! That is exactly why I think there is no much point for philosophy students going to conferences, of course as long as we are concerned with job positions. 

[Glasperlenspieler]

I was thinking more: ask a question in the session, follow that up with a conversation afterwards, and then (if all goes well) continue the conversation focusing on what you've been working on and other related topics, followed by continued interaction after the conference.

Clearly this isn't a silver bullet for getting a job (although I have heard that this sometimes can result in being asked to contribute to a volume of collected essays, or more commonly the offer to take a look at your current work).

But given the state of the contemporary academic job market, I think it's probably hard to overestimate the importance of who you know in the philosophical community. Obviously long-standing,close working relationships are ideal, but I think there's probably something to be said about breadth as well. Because of conference participation, I know philosophers of a variety of ranks working across the country. These are perhaps not the closest of relationships, although it always surprises me how close you can get over just a few days at a conference. I have no idea if these relationships will ever come in handy in terms of a job, although I suspect they can only work in my favor. 

Now does this mean it's worth it to fly across the Atlantic to attend a conference? I don't know. You'd have to weigh the costs and benefits for each conference (it's probably more likely to be worth it if presenting), but I don't think you should underestimate the benefits.

Sorry for the detour away from the main question! I don't have too much to add there, but hope someone can give you some useful advice.

 

[philapp]

21 minutes ago, DerPhilosoph said:

I was thinking more: ask a question in the session, follow that up with a conversation afterwards, and then (if all goes well) continue the conversation focusing on what you've been working on and other related topics, followed by continued interaction after the conference.

Clearly this isn't a silver bullet for getting a job (although I have heard that this sometimes can result in being asked to contribute to a volume of collected essays, or more commonly the offer to take a look at your current work).

But given the state of the contemporary academic job market, I think it's probably hard to overestimate the importance of who you know in the philosophical community. Obviously long-standing,close working relationships are ideal, but I think there's probably something to be said about breadth as well. Because of conference participation, I know philosophers of a variety of ranks working across the country. These are perhaps not the closest of relationships, although it always surprises me how close you can get over just a few days at a conference. I have no idea if these relationships will ever come in handy in terms of a job, although I suspect they can only work in my favor. 

Now does this mean it's worth it to fly across the Atlantic to attend a conference? I don't know. You'd have to weigh the costs and benefits for each conference (it's probably more likely to be worth it if presenting), but I don't think you should underestimate the benefits.

Sorry for the detour away from the main question! I don't have too much to add there, but hope someone can give you some useful advice.

 

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Thanks for the comments. In this sesne, I should try conferences as well. As you said, it is not a silver bullet, but I should not underestimate its factor. Thanks. 

[maxhgns]

Going to conferences and being an active participant there has some benefits  (at least in theory!):

1.) You become familiar with your chunk of the field (especially at specialist conferences) and they, in turn, become familiar with you. That increases the likelihood that people will read your work, ask you to contribute a paper/give a talk/write a book review, etc.

2.) It helps you develop friendships and professional relationships (e.g. finding people with whom to share work, people to write you external letters of rec. or to evaluate your tenure file, etc.).

3.) It gives you feedback on your own work, helping you to polish it for publication.

4.) It helps you practice your public speaking and presentation skills (this has a pretty direct impact on your classroom, job talk, and interview performance).

5.) It helps you keep on top of new ideas.

6.) It signals that you're research-active, irrespective of the current number of your publications.

 

None of these is a direct help to a job, but they can definitely indirectly benefit your job search. The importance of publications in job searches is usually overstated: yes, they do matter. As in, you should have some. But other things matter too, and they matter a lot. Nobody these days gets a job just because they've published lots, and people with more or better publications don't really do better than those who don't have as many or as many good pubs.

[fuzzylogician]

13 hours ago, philapp said:

A side note about conference attendance: I don’t see how meeting people at conferences help in getting a position for ‘philosophy’ students (This, of course, greatly helps ‘science’ students). The most important factor for philosophy students, as long as I know, is good publications. Thanks.  

Having good publications is important, but it's not enough. You want to known as someone active, who gives eloquent and interesting talks. People need to know you, and preferably also like you. They'll give you a postdoc because they want to have you around, because either you or your advisor have the right connections to find a place for you. You want people to associate the name on the papers they read with a face and a personality. Unlike TT jobs (or at least to a lesser extent), postdocs are often more informal, so there isn't a formal search process that universities have to go through. If someone wants to have you there, there are ways of finding the money to make it happen. If no one knows you exist, they won't want you around. Likewise, even if someone has heard of your publications, how should they know that you are graduating and looking for a postdoc? If you have a presence and you make it known that you are looking, then things might happen. The point of attending conferences is to make yourself known to people who you might want to hire you. You do this at the talks, but also at the coffee breaks and the lunches/dinners and party.

[rising_star]

What fuzzy said! Seriously, I've got opportunities to do things solely by being at a conference and having a conversation with someone. Conferences in my field are rarely about attending the talk and are much more about who you meet at the specialty/working group meetings, the parties, and by walking up to someone you already know to say hello. And when I say all sorts of things, I include getting leads on jobs, including jobs that had yet to be advertised and for which I was urged to apply by the search committee chair (who, for the record, didn't really know anything about my publications and had heard about 5 minutes of my conference paper). I've also walked up to people after their talk and developed research collaborations which otherwise would've been difficult to establish. Think of it this way: are you more likely respond to an unsolicited email asking to work with you or an email from someone you've met at a conference/symposium/event?

philapp, I think you're overestimating the distinction between philosophy and other fields when it comes to the value of conferences, particularly in the North American context.

[philapp]

Thank you all for your helpful comments. I never denied any of these, just said it doesn’t work in philosophy in a way it does in science, as long as getting a position is concerned.

In addition, it seems one can get all the above benefits by going for a visit: by going to their weekly seminars, presenting and getting feedback etc. I know there is a postdoc position available next year in one of my favorite schools. After reading your comments on the importance of connections, I am thinking maybe I go there for a visit, present my work and open a relationship, till the application time. Sounds very good. Any comments on this?

Besides, I think we should not underestimate the importance of at least one ‘good’ publication. After all, it is the most important thing (and maybe the only thing) that shows you can do philosophy. Otherwise, everybody is doing philosophy! Thank you all. 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by philapp

[rising_star]

philapp, the only way your proposed visit idea makes sense is if they invite you. You don't want to send an email asking them if you can give a talk or just show up and hope people attend a talk you have. That's not how things work in the US and doing that will not make you look good. If you want to open a relationship, either introduce yourself to the relevant folks at a conference or send them an out of the blue email and hope they respond.

BTW, Inside Higher Ed just had a post about the value of asking questions for networking at conferences. See here. 

[philapp]

13 minutes ago, rising_star said:

philapp, the only way your proposed visit idea makes sense is if they invite you. You don't want to send an email asking them if you can give a talk or just show up and hope people attend a talk you have. That's not how things work in the US and doing that will not make you look good. If you want to open a relationship, either introduce yourself to the relevant folks at a conference or send them an out of the blue email and hope they respond.

BTW, Inside Higher Ed just had a post about the value of asking questions for networking at conferences. See here. 

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I am not sending an email, asking if they want me to give a talk! I said, similar to conference participation, you can also make connections by going for a visit and maybe present in the school’s weekly graduate students’ seminars etc.   

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by philapp

[rising_star]

I know what you said. I guess I'm trying to figure out how it is that you think you're going to snag an invite to talk in the weekly graduate students' seminars without actually being a graduate student there. As someone coming from outside, it seems more likely that you'd be asked to give a brown bag or colloquium talk, rather than be slotted in with the department's own PhD students. I doubt you'll get an invite to present in a weekly seminar series for grad students by talking to people at a conference.

[ExponentialDecay]

I'm confused. Is OP talking about becoming an exchange student at another department, or getting a tourist visa to hit up Times Square and roll into MIT along the way, all casual, like what's up people want to see my research? 

[maxhgns]

Presumably the former. Visiting student arrangements aren't at all uncommon.

[ExponentialDecay]

So when OP says presenting his research at grad student seminars, he means taking graduate seminar classes and talking in them? Why would he do that as a final-year graduate student?

[fuzzylogician]

9 hours ago, philapp said:

Thank you all for your helpful comments. I never denied any of these, just said it doesn’t work in philosophy in a way it does in science, as long as getting a position is concerned.

Interestingly enough, no one who responded here is from the sciences. We also never said publications weren't important. We are questioning what it looks like for a final-year PhD student to suddenly leave his/her department to spend a semester taking courses and presenting at another university. Your dissertation project is presumably well under way to being completed, and should be what you devote your time to now. You are anyway probably too late for arranging an official visit for the upcoming semester, which will start in less than a month at some places and about two months at others, because you'll need funding and a visa (not to mention agreement from the university to host you, and probably a host), and I'm sure visiting students for the semester have already been chosen. Are you thinking about visiting next year, after you will have completed your PhD? Then you are not a student anymore, and most places I know won't be able to host you, because you'll need a home university (that is, a job or postdoc) to be visiting from. 

[philapp]

On December 9, 2015 at 8:39 PM, philapp said:

Hi everyone,

 

I was just wondering how much it matters (with respect to your future success in academia, for example, in getting a postdoc position, tenure etc.) if you go for a visit to top philosophy schools during your PhD. I am a PhD student in Europe. Any thoughts? Thank you. 

 

 

Here is some good advice:

http://thesiswhisperer.com/2012/03/05/traveling-during-your-phd/