Edited SOP

[CHOCTICK]

How does this sound; be gentle. This is an edited version of my earlier post. The first paragraph does not flow like I want--I am working on it; I know some will say it shouldn't be there but I think it is funny and succinctly gives the admissions folks a biography.

I started a new thread because I feared if I attached it to the old thread viewers would zone out before getting to it. Be happy and stop whining

Besides the time I spent in the Army, my happiest years have been those I have spent as a college student. I may have occasionally frowned on the impending exam and accompanying hours of requisite study, but the camaraderie and sense of community on the college campus made up for it. Teaching high school mathematics was fulfilling but the deviants and lengthy at home preparation took the enjoyment out of it. Being a mailman had its moments but being chased by dogs was irksome. It is with this knowledge that I have decided to go to graduate school.

A master’s in civil engineering with a concentration in structural engineering has everything I am looking for. With this degree, I am considering working for the Army Corp of Engineers helping retrofit and replace our nations deteriorating infrastructure, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission helping design the next generation of nuclear reactors, the C.I.A. as a science, technology, and weapons analyst, or as a junior college professor. Why do I want to study structural engineering? The answer is simple: opportunities.

The applicability of structural engineering is equaled by its beauty. The screen saver on my office computer is a picture of the Millau Viaduct. As I admire the beauty of the tallest bridge in the world, I cannot help but ponder the science that enables it to withstand the forces it must cope with. Keeping to my mathematical roots, I look forward to exploring the interplay of the Golden Ratio and structural engineering.

Two areas of interest to me within structural engineering are smart structures and toughening mechanisms. As the population increases, land management will become more of an issue. As a result, the homes of the future will be under the world’s oceans; but to be able to handle the forces from underwater currents and changing pressure, such structures will need to be able to adapt. I would like to contribute to designing structures that can reduce their own drag and increase their own strength. Having attended XXXX university for my undergraduate degree, I feel confident I can get the foundation I need to tackle these issues from my alma mater.

Another area I find intriguing is computational methods and mathematical modeling. My mathematics courses included work in computer programming, number theory, abstract algebra, analysis, and linear algebra. I am interested in how linear algebra along with differential equations and computer programming can be employed to optimize the design process while simultaneously maximizing structural integrity.

I am well prepared to begin structural engineering studies. My degree in mathematics affords me the ability to think analytically and logically; before commencing graduate studies I will have completed a course in chemistry and physics. Once admitted to the graduate program in structural engineering, I will avail myself of the opportunity and not disappoint. I look forward to entering the civil engineering department in the fall of 2010.

P.S. Is it dangerous for me to post my SOP here-- plagiarism and all. I know, I know; who would want to copy this garbage.

MBS7107

Edited October 30, 2009 by CHOCTICK

[glasses]

O.K., I know you don't want to hear this, but I do think you have to axe the first paragraph and write a new one that's tailored for a statement of purpose. Showing personality is awesome and definitely important: I imagine that on some level, folks do want to have an idea of what kind of person they'll be working with if they take you. But, the document is ultimately meant to be a statement of academic intent, so personally, I'm making sure that every detail in mine is academically relevant. As far as my personality goes, I'm trying to show it through my writing style and tone.

Also, the thing about humor is that not everyone laughs at the same things. It's great that you think your first paragraph is funny, but you have a sizable sample of folks here who don't feel the same way. If it were me, I wouldn't want to run the risk of the paragraph falling flat -- especially since many folks have said that not only does the paragraph not sound funny, but in fact, it sounds quite negative. Do you really want to bank your entire first impression on the odds that the people reading your application have the exact same sense of humor that you do, especially when the spectrum of possible alternative impressions could be debilitating?

Every word matters. In this draft, you spend an entire paragraph on a sizable gamble. It's like going to Vegas with the last $20 in your bank account: not a good call.

[CHOCTICK]

What about the rest of the SOP glasses; how does the rest read? Plagiarism?

[naptown]

What about the rest of the SOP glasses; how does the rest read? Plagiarism?

It's more to your benefit to solicit tough criticism instead of asking us to be gentle.

I saw the earlier post you made and the subsequent comments, and this all seems very similar to what you had before ("deviants" "screen saver" "nations" etc etc). The various posters had a lot of really good comments for you... I would dwell on those and think about the fundamental issues they addressed.

It's hard to totally chuck a section and start from scratch, but if you get helpful feedback, or you come back and read it later and don't like something, you've got to rethink it. SOPs are soooo crucial...

[Viva]

I am rather cynical so I would be wary of posting my SOP on the internet. I am working on fellowship applications and SOPs and I know how strong the desire is to get feedback from different people. But the people you ask to read your SOP should be people you know well rather than strangers. I realize the value of these forums and truly appreciate all the advice and help I have received but I would not post my SOP here.

I recommend approaching your professors or advisor and asking them to read it. Also, do you know anyone who is in or has attended graduate school? Ask them to read your SOP. I am not sure how structural engineering graduate programs work (I am interested in biology) but is it customary to contact prospective advisors? Sometimes, if they are enthusiastic about your application and are not busy, they could be willing to look over an SOP and give you feedback. (Just today, I had a prospective supervisor volunteer to read my SOP and give me advice.) Also, you may want to consider contacting graduate students at the program to which you are applying. Initially ask them about the program and their advisor and eventually ask them if they would mind reviewing your SOP. I have done similar things regarding my fellowship applications and most graduate students were very willing to read my essays. And if they say "no", thank them for their time and look for someone else to read your SOP. You have many options that are much less susceptible to plagiarism.

[monkeyface]

this statement reads to me like a nice personal essay for UNDERgrad admissions (minus the math degree mention). what i get from this statement is that you're going to grad school to find yourself, b/c you haven't found it yet, with no clear end in mind, and a lot of superficial reasons for picking structural engineering (my screensaver is a picture of a flower, but this doesn't make me a good candidate for botany programs, no matter how much i wonder how it's so pretty).

i think you've gotten a lot of stellar advice so far, in this thread and the first one, that i urge you to consider more seriously. to ME, the first paragraph is not funny; in fact i feel you come off as lazy and naive and would toss the essay aside immediately. try to come up with academically-based reasons that you are a good match for a structural eng. program. how did you come across all these different specific topics that interest you? were they inspired by classes you took? books you read?

the parts about these interests, btw, are the strongest points, but i do think there are too many. if you want to keep them all in, try to show how they connect with one another more so your essay shows a clear purpose.

which brings me to my last point: remember the prompt is asking you for an OBJECTIVE, first and foremost. there are too many potential jobs listed and too many potential research interests listed for any focused objective to be determined, and that's the exact kind of giant red flag adcom's will take notice of and cast aside.

Edited October 30, 2009 by monkeyface

[glasses]

I saw the earlier post you made and the subsequent comments, and this all seems very similar to what you had before ("deviants" "screen saver" "nations" etc etc). The various posters had a lot of really good comments for you... I would dwell on those and think about the fundamental issues they addressed.

I agree with the above.

Re: plagiarism: you know as much as any of us. Yes, people steal things. However, the statement of purpose is such a personalized document that I can't see how it would actually help anyone to steal anyone else's, unless you happen to have the exact same resume and research interests as those of the person you stole from. At the same time, I'd never put my statement of purpose online -- but that's more for privacy-related reasons, not fear of plagiarism.

[Tam]

I would seriously, seriously remove the part where you say you didn't like teaching because of the lengthy at-home preparation. Grad school will have way more of that than teaching, so it kind of makes me question whether you will really want to do it.

The part about future homes being built on the ocean floor makes you sound like a crazy person on the bus. Space to build more houses really isn't the limiting factor on human population, as far as I'm aware.

[zilch]

ditch the third paragraph. Aside from the reasons already mentioned, it just felt awkward to read.

The SOP needs to have one cohesive theme, it needs to discuss your abilities and how you can fit into their program. In its current state, I can only describe your SOP as spastic.

You are applying for a technical discipline, one that requires licensure (after your degree). Your SOP needs to cover your technical skills, why you're qualified and convey a certain amount of professionalism.

Think of it this way, if you were giving this as a speech, could you do it in a suit and facing PhDs in your field?

There is room for personality but that should not be the focus.

[KieBelle]

I'm going to try to be nice, but...

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are asking for our advice again, since you chose to ignore everything we said the first time. As I'm sure you've noticed, the users on this forum are generally incredibly intelligent and many of them have gone through this at least once before. If you have 20 smart and experienced people telling you to do or not do something that may save your application from rejection, why not heed their advice? The fact that we all pretty much agree with each other says a lot. So if you want to continue to ignore our advice, that's absolutely your right, but don't keep asking for more.

As for the plagiarism issue-- isn't it a bit late to be worrying about that? You've already posted 2 drafts of your SOP. If someone wants to steal it, it's far too late for you to do anything about.

P.S.- I'd like to thank Tam and modernity for giving me the best laugh I've had in days. Maybe it's a crazy troll on a bus in an underwater city? Okay, that may have been a bit mean. Sorry.

Edited October 30, 2009 by KieBelle

[modernity]

I am starting to wonder if you're a troll, or what exactly your deal is. We have all repeatedly given you advice on the very information you have reposted - the parts we all begged you to alter, you have refused to. Now you're asking us to stop "whining"? I don't recall a single person whining, I do however recall a great deal of constructive criticism that you're choosing to ignore. In the event you aren't a troll, and are actually seeking assistance -I agree with almost everything on here and will add that your entire first paragraph can be placed in your CV if you want to make sure they knew you were in the military, a teacher, and a mailman.. but it does nothing to help them understand why you want to pursue structural engineering and why you are a good candidate for their program - and in the end this is all they want to know about.

I'm also going to restate my advice about the underwater homes section - they don't need you to explain the process to them, they already have their PhD's and should know this. You would be better off citing another professor, or past research on the subject that you have found intriguing and has compelled you to pursue that as your ultimate goals.

The bit about "opportunities" I would also axe - because its nothing original... everyone is going to grad school because it offers them more opportunities. You need to stand out, and show how you are original.

Your last two paragraphs are the strength of your SOP - I would keep them, rework them, and build from them.

Can I just suggest that you TRY our ideas? Just write another SOP with our ideas in mind, and see how you feel about it?

As far as plagiarism - I wouldn't be that concerned. I would be more concerned about privacy issues- i.e. a professor from a future school or a colleague stumbling on this forum (or livejournal or elsewhere for that matter), than I would about someone else stealing it. As someone else said, it is quite hard to steal an SOP because they require an immense amount of specifics.

[callmelilyb]

I have to agree with the advice that's been given here and on the other posting and urge you to seriously consider internalizing the suggestions that others have offered you. That first paragraph has got to be axed, especially the part about "lengthy preparation" taking the enjoyment out of something -- that made me wonder "does this person have any idea what they are getting themselves into??" -- NOT the reaction you want. The screensaver bit is kind of off-putting as well.

I think that a lot of people that are drawn to and active on this forum are intelligent and highly motivated applicants, they are also (generously) willing to take the time to give useful feedback, that I strongly encourage you to take!

[callmelilyb]

Oh, and as someone else already mentioned, the last two paragraphs of what you've submitted here are by far the best part of the essay!

[fuzzylogician]

I am starting to wonder if you're a troll, or what exactly your deal is. We have all repeatedly given you advice on the very information you have reposted - the parts we all begged you to alter, you have refused to. Now you're asking us to stop "whining"? I don't recall a single person whining, I do however recall a great deal of constructive criticism that you're choosing to ignore.

This pretty much sums up how I feel on this subject. Why ask for advice if you're just going to ignore it?

[coyabean]

This pretty much sums up how I feel on this subject. Why ask for advice if you're just going to ignore it?

ditto. it's annoying to take time out of your own process to try and give back to a board that helps you to only have it all ignored.

in the event that we are wrong i will just say that you still come off as annoying and your first paragraph sounds like you are just going to graduate school because you couldn't land a glamorous job.

[mudlark]

Hrm... well, I see the posts saying that you're not likely to take criticism, but I'm looking for an excuse to procrastinate, so I'll reply anyway. I haven't read your last thread, so I have a fresh set of eyes.

Besides the time I spent in the Army, my happiest years have been those I have spent as a college student. I may have occasionally frowned on the impending exam and accompanying hours of requisite study, but the camaraderie and sense of community on the college campus made up for it. Teaching high school mathematics was fulfilling but the deviants and lengthy at home preparation took the enjoyment out of it. Being a mailman had its moments but being chased by dogs was irksome. It is with this knowledge that I have decided to go to graduate school.

Think about what this paragraph is saying to your potential program:

"I may have occasionally frowned on the impending exam and accompanying hours of requisite study" = I don't enjoy work and don't have a strong work ethic.

"Teaching high school mathematics was fulfilling but the deviants and lengthy at home preparation took the enjoyment out of it" = I also dislike teaching and only want to do work that I enjoy.

Is this really how you want to present yourself to people who are looking for passionate, energetic researchers and teachers? By saying that you don't like either research or teaching?

The comment about a mailman also needs to go. Disliking one job does not prepare you for another. Imagine going in for surgery and asking the doctor about his qualifications only to hear, "Well, I really hated working at Foot Locker, so I decided to become a doctor." It's irrelevant and shows bad judgment, even if it's meant to be funny.

You absolutely need to cut this entire paragraph.

A master’s in civil engineering with a concentration in structural engineering has everything I am looking for. With this degree, I am considering working for the Army Corp of Engineers helping retrofit and replace our nations deteriorating infrastructure, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission helping design the next generation of nuclear reactors, the C.I.A. as a science, technology, and weapons analyst, or as a junior college professor. Why do I want to study structural engineering? The answer is simple: opportunities.

Right now, all you're doing is telling professors what they already know: that their field has many applications. Why waste important space reminding them about the basics of their own field?

Here's how to save this section.

1. Pick ONE of these career paths.

2. Detail specific elements of your graduate training that will help you get there (courses, work, support systems, labs).

3. Find out which professor is best suited to support this path and mention him/her by name.

The applicability of structural engineering is equaled by its beauty. The screen saver on my office computer is a picture of the Millau Viaduct. As I admire the beauty of the tallest bridge in the world, I cannot help but ponder the science that enables it to withstand the forces it must cope with. Keeping to my mathematical roots, I look forward to exploring the interplay of the Golden Ratio and structural engineering.

This is utterly irrelevant. Cut it.

Two areas of interest to me within structural engineering are smart structures and toughening mechanisms. As the population increases, land management will become more of an issue. As a result, the homes of the future will be under the world’s oceans; but to be able to handle the forces from underwater currents and changing pressure, such structures will need to be able to adapt. I would like to contribute to designing structures that can reduce their own drag and increase their own strength. Having attended XXXX university for my undergraduate degree, I feel confident I can get the foundation I need to tackle these issues from my alma mater.

Ok, this part has some promise. Again, though, you're reminding people with advanced degrees about basic truths. I'm sure your professors are aware of population growth. Assume that they know the basics, and get into specifics! Instead of talking about how the program will give you a general foundation to solve a large scale problem, go into details about exactly what you're going to do. "I am applying to this program because its focus on X, Y, and Z skills will allow me to (produce a final paper/construct prototypes/do lab work/build structures/extend existing research) that deals with (a very specific problem)."

Another area I find intriguing is computational methods and mathematical modeling. My mathematics courses included work in computer programming, number theory, abstract algebra, analysis, and linear algebra. I am interested in how linear algebra along with differential equations and computer programming can be employed to optimize the design process while simultaneously maximizing structural integrity.

Whoa, there! You're all over the map. You're interested in five different jobs, the beauty of the golden ratio, solving the land shortage problem, and now algebra? You don't come across as a person with a specific goal in mind for graduate school. You need to connect the various parts of your application into one coherent narrative.

I am well prepared to begin structural engineering studies. My degree in mathematics affords me the ability to think analytically and logically; before commencing graduate studies I will have completed a course in chemistry and physics. Once admitted to the graduate program in structural engineering, I will avail myself of the opportunity and not disappoint. I look forward to entering the civil engineering department in the fall of 2010.

Ok, but a bit ho hum.

You may be an excellent student and a wonderful human being. But that's not coming across in your SOP. Readers of this essay will come away from it feeling like

1. You are interested in grad school more for the fun extracurriculars than for the work (paragraph 1).

2. You don't have a clear career path in mind (paragraph 2).

3. You don't have a clearly articulated research interest (paragraphs 3-5).

4. You don't have a compelling reason why the specific elements of this program are a good fit for you.

Nobody will admit you to graduate school so that you can enjoy the community and casually browse various topics. You need to show drive, goals, and fit. If you don't yet have a goal in mind for graduate studies, you might want to wait until you have one.

[CHOCTICK]

The school I plan on attending is not a research based institution; they only offer up to a master's. I really don't have a research focus; I want to learn structural engineering to a degree beyond the bachelors. I want to come out being a jack of all things structural; they have a hands on focus.

If my SOP is vague, it's because I have not been acclimated to the field of structural engineering. Once I take some upper division engineering courses, I will be better able to articulate my goals within structural engineering. I think the school realizes this; that's why I will get a conditional admit.

Once again, thanks for all of your responses.

P.S.: Be honest; with the exception of the first paragraph, the rest of my SOP is ok. I said ok--not great, good, stellar,.... Give a brotha a break.

[coyabean]

The school I plan on attending is not a research based institution; they only offer up to a master's. I really don't have a research focus; I want to learn structural engineering to a degree beyond the bachelors. I want to come out being a jack of all things structural; they have a hands on focus.

If my SOP is vague, it's because I have not been acclimated to the field of structural engineering. Once I take some upper division engineering courses, I will be better able to articulate my goals within structural engineering. I think the school realizes this; that's why I will get a conditional admit.

Once again, thanks for all of your responses.

P.S.: Be honest; with the exception of the first paragraph, the rest of my SOP is ok. I said ok--not great, good, stellar,.... Give a brotha a break.

At the risk of feeding the troll...

So, if you already know you will get admitted why this exercise in SOP feedback?

And give a "brotha" a break? Really? LOL

Break on "brotha" and while you're at it send your SOP exactly the way it is. It's PERFECT. Doesn't need a thing. You are a shoo-in. You cannot be denied!!!! I imagine there is a adcomm waiting for your SOP genius as we speak. You must satisfy them POST HASTE!!!!!

[fuzzylogician]

At the risk of feeding the troll...

So, if you already know you will get admitted why this exercise in SOP feedback?

And give a "brotha" a break? Really? LOL

Break on "brotha" and while you're at it send your SOP exactly the way it is. It's PERFECT. Doesn't need a thing. You are a shoo-in. You cannot be denied!!!! I imagine there is a adcomm waiting for your SOP genius as we speak. You must satisfy them POST HASTE!!!!!

I've been resisting the urge to write something like this for 3 hours!

Thanks coyabean

[CHOCTICK]

I'm just a man whose intentions are good; dear Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

1) Ok, what the heck is a Troll?

2) I am not saying I will get admitted. I am saying that if I am admitted, I will be admitted

conditionally.

3) Break on "brotha"? What!

4) Is it ok; all I am looking for is an ok. Don't be sarcastic or frustrated. I promise I am considering

all advice.

Stay focused guys; we have a lot of work to do. I'm not paying you to be funny.

P.S.: I sincerely appreciate you all offering your opinion. I love all of you.

Edited November 2, 2009 by CHOCTICK

[thepoorstockinger]

There's no way that this is a real poster or a real SOP (or at least one that is the result of any editing or acceptance of assistance by the author). I call troll.

There is only one way for threads like this to be dealt with:

[ColorlessGreen]

I believe what everyone is trying to tell you is that "ok" is not really good enough. Graduate programs are difficult to get into, and there will be a lot of competition, even for a lesser-known program. Many people will be applying, and many of those people will have the background that you lack. That is why it is in your best interest to make your SOP as good as it possibly can be. You may be setting your sights low on a conditional admission, but that doesn't mean you should put any less than your best effort into your SOP. If you really want to be accepted, you should be trying your hardest now to improve your application however possible.

That said, I agree that your SOP comes off as unfocused. Even though your interests and goals may change later, this statement should offer concrete examples of each. The admission officers need some reason to believe that you have the will and drive to complete this degree and do some kind of serious work, and that is simply not shown by a list of jobs that you have abandoned and a collection of jobs you might want to do. You might consider writing an entirely new SOP, rewriting this one, and then writing one more based on the strongest parts of both. The first draft is never perfect, and sometimes it takes as many as ten or twenty to get your ideas and wording just right. Don't be afraid to rewrite, especially if many, many people are telling you to.

[modernity]

I'm just a man whose intentions are good; dear Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

1) Ok, what the heck is a Troll?

2) I am not saying I will get admitted. I am saying that if I am admitted, I will be admitted

conditionally.

3) Break on "brotha"? What!

4) Is it ok; all I am looking for is an ok. Don't be sarcastic or frustrated. I promise I am considering

all advice.

Stay focused guys; we have a lot of work to do. I'm not paying you to be funny.

P.S.: I sincerely appreciate you all offering your opinion. I love all of you.

We're being paid??? In that case.... but I think my check must have been lost in the mail.

A troll is someone who posts inflammatory/controversial remarks (often repeatedly) on forums and other places on the internet in order to garner attention.

We (well maybe I don't speak for all of us..but...) don't mind helping you as long as we feel appreciated and our comments are respected. I just feel like you need to loosen up and not be so defensive of your SOP. We were criticizing a rough draft of your work, not you, and I feel like you're taking it much too personally. It came to criticizing you, and assuming you were a troll when you got up on your soap box.

[fuzzylogician]

We're being paid??? In that case.... but I think my check must have been lost in the mail.

CHOCTICK, I am sure you will be here shortly to tell us to take it easy and that you were only joking. Maybe this is a good time to point out again that NOT EVERYBODY LAUGHS AT THE SAME THINGS. So, as we have been saying time and time again, it might be better if you kept the humor out of your SOP. At the same time, it would also be nice if you at least pretended to appreciate our efforts to help you. We don't work for you and don't get paid (if we are, I'll have you know that my check is also late!), but we're willing to invest the time to try and help if we think we're doing some good. But for you advice just seems to go in one ear and out the other. That's why we think you might be a troll--I'm still not convinced you're not.

[KieBelle]

The school I plan on attending is not a research based institution; they only offer up to a master's. I really don't have a research focus; I want to learn structural engineering to a degree beyond the bachelors. I want to come out being a jack of all things structural; they have a hands on focus.

If my SOP is vague, it's because I have not been acclimated to the field of structural engineering. Once I take some upper division engineering courses, I will be better able to articulate my goals within structural engineering. I think the school realizes this; that's why I will get a conditional admit.

Any school that will let in people with your level of effort, ignorance about your field, and total lack of focus cannot possibly be worth the time and money you will spend getting the degree. I have a very hard time believing that a degree from this school is worth much in the job market.

I'm just a man whose intentions are good; dear Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

Yet another example of how your sense of humor falls completely flat. Then again, maybe this wasn't intended to be funny. Hard to tell.

4) Is it ok; all I am looking for is an ok. Don't be sarcastic or frustrated. I promise I am considering

all advice.

This is my opinion absent all sarcasm and frustration: NO. It is not okay.

Stay focused guys; we have a lot of work to do. I'm not paying you to be funny.

P.S.: I sincerely appreciate you all offering your opinion. I love all of you.

Ugh. If you aren't a troll, you are one strange dude.