Phd History or Phd Religion in Historical Theology

[AGingeryGinger]

Hello!

 

I had a question about the differences between a Phd in history and a Phd in religion I was hoping could be answered. Mainly, what are the differences and which is the "best" program?

At this present time I will be enrolled in the MDiv program in a small Anglican seminary here in the US. For PhD work I want to examine 15/16th century England with an emphasis on the development of religion, specifically pre-reformation. 

Now my dilemma is that because my masters is an MDiv could I feasibly go from that to a PhD in religion? Taking Vanderbilt as a case study, many of their students just have an MDiv in the religion Phd. However, in History, the MA is earned along the way. So an MDiv would be a foundational degree that could hypothetically set me up for studies in either program.

my main dilemma is what are the differences between a PhD in history and a Phd in religion in this field? In religion the program is specifically labeled as historical studies, and as most Phd programs in religion are mine would focus exclusively on Christianity.

my end goal outcomes are to work in a seminary, specifically teaching historical theology. In essence teaching historic foundational Anglican theology to Anglicans. Now with this in mind and the nature of my work being overtly a religious topic, it seems it would make more sense to have the PhD be in Religion, as it's more suited to the field. 

However, beyond my intentions and knowledge of the program's I am honestly clueless about the differences that exist, if any, between a PhD in religion and a Phd in history.

thank you for your help!

[theophany]

You could feasibly go from an MDiv to a PhD in a history as long as you are very careful to turn your degree as heavily toward history as you can, and get a good backing in historiography. At a small Anglican seminary, esp. if you are ordination seeking, that might be a little complicated.

I will say, though, if your end goal is to work in a seminary teaching historical theology for the purposes of ministerial formation, pursuing a PhD in a secular history department doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's not even that the nature of your work is on an overtly religious topic, it's that it has an overtly religious motivation. If it's historical theology you want to teach, you're going to need to be able to hold up the theology part of the equation, too, because you won't be presenting Coverdale or Hooker as of simple historical interest, but as thinkers whose thought is offered up for consideration of belief, and lives, for emulation. That is quite a different task than a historian. Historical theology is firstly theology that is historical, not firstly history that is theological.

[AGingeryGinger]

Theophany,

thank you very much for your answer. That honestly cleared up a lot of the concern I had. And your answer makes a lot of sense. I'm currently doing a senior honors thesis at a secular university over the debate between John frith and Thomas more over the Eucharist and purgatory. My advisor is a reformation historian, and the nature of a lot of his work is sense perception and religion. His work is tied so closely to religion I wasn't sure where exactly the line was between history and historical theology. 

Taking your answer into consideration, would you say it would be feasible to go from an MDiv straight to a Phd in historical theology? I've seen a couple people recommend doing a MA in history to bolster the application strength. Yet at the same time I've seen people do the BA, MDiv, PhD route Historical theology as well.

I know religion is slightly different from history (program wise) where many do terminal MA's then do either a Phd at a school or a combine MA/PhD at a school. Because I've never seen a religion program that offers a combined MA/PhD or MTS/PhD, I wasn't sure whether picking up an MA after the MDiv would help at all.

my bachelors is in History and Religion, with departmental honors in both programs and overall university honors.ive had the opportunity to work under very good late medieval England scholars as well as several early modernists, one of which holds a visiting professorship at Harvard. So I hope my undergraduate background will complement the MDiv enough to be able to get into a good PhD program without having to take on a MA on top of it.

thank you again for all your help, and sorry for the stream of conscious ramble/answer/response. Regarding the two fields it's hard to get any real evidence differentiating the two.

[menge]

Something additional to note: there is often a distinction between what is considered religious studies and theological studies. Within a religious studies department, you can often study your subject area historically. But if your interest is theology, even historical theology, as a kind of constructive enterprise, then you may be more interested in attending a seminary or divinity school which will offer more by way of theological training. By no means is this hard and fast... just something I've observed from being in a religious studies department at a pubic university. Overall, studying religion tends to be very interdisciplinary so there can be lots of overlap with other disciplines like history, sociology, etc. 

[AGingeryGinger]

3 hours ago, menge said:

Something additional to note: there is often a distinction between what is considered religious studies and theological studies. Within a religious studies department, you can often study your subject area historically. But if your interest is theology, even historical theology, as a kind of constructive enterprise, then you may be more interested in attending a seminary or divinity school which will offer more by way of theological training. By no means is this hard and fast... just something I've observed from being in a religious studies department at a pubic university. Overall, studying religion tends to be very interdisciplinary so there can be lots of overlap with other disciplines like history, sociology, etc. 

I've realized the same thing. The difference is often subtle and yet a major one. From what I've looked at from divinity schools at say Duke, Emory, etc. they offer "Christian Theological Studies" which is essentially a catch all for any subject within that field, especially Historical Theology. For even if "historical theology" isn't *specifically* offered, I've seen may people say to get a degree in systematic theology and focus on historical studies, for it is literally the exact same thing. For example, while Duke doesn't specifically offer historical theology, there is a professor at U of Chicago who teaches Reformation studies who's degree is from Duke with the emphasis on Christian Theological Studies.

And I agree, I do feel that a seminary or Divinity School would be much better than a religious studies department. At the moment, i plan on continuing my current thesis over the debate between John Frith and Thomas More over the concept of heresy within the Eucharist and Purgatory in Pre-Reformation England, while expanding the debate further to include theologians such as Tyndale and the Lollard 'Heresy'. Essentially doing a catch-all of pre-reformation England, and using Matthew Milner's methodology of Sense Perception to analyze Pre reformation England, which as of today still has yet to be studied at all.

Some schools I have looked at (over the spectrum of First and Second Tier, again I'm concerned how much the small Anglican seminary will help or hurt me) are: Vanderbilt (Peter Lake is wonderful), Emory (fantastic early modern), U of Chicago (because of their historical studies program), Marquette, Baylor, Garrett Theological, and Fordham.

[fides quarens intellectum]

You certainly can go from M.Div to PhD work.  If you're going to do work in historical theology, ancient language work would be particularly important so, if you don't have any languages yet, it might be worth working on that at this point to help your application strength when you apply.  

[tdwightdavis]

18 hours ago, AGingeryGinger said:

Theophany,

thank you very much for your answer. That honestly cleared up a lot of the concern I had. And your answer makes a lot of sense. I'm currently doing a senior honors thesis at a secular university over the debate between John frith and Thomas more over the Eucharist and purgatory. My advisor is a reformation historian, and the nature of a lot of his work is sense perception and religion. His work is tied so closely to religion I wasn't sure where exactly the line was between history and historical theology. 

Taking your answer into consideration, would you say it would be feasible to go from an MDiv straight to a Phd in historical theology? I've seen a couple people recommend doing a MA in history to bolster the application strength. Yet at the same time I've seen people do the BA, MDiv, PhD route Historical theology as well.

I know religion is slightly different from history (program wise) where many do terminal MA's then do either a Phd at a school or a combine MA/PhD at a school. Because I've never seen a religion program that offers a combined MA/PhD or MTS/PhD, I wasn't sure whether picking up an MA after the MDiv would help at all.

my bachelors is in History and Religion, with departmental honors in both programs and overall university honors.ive had the opportunity to work under very good late medieval England scholars as well as several early modernists, one of which holds a visiting professorship at Harvard. So I hope my undergraduate background will complement the MDiv enough to be able to get into a good PhD program without having to take on a MA on top of it.

thank you again for all your help, and sorry for the stream of conscious ramble/answer/response. Regarding the two fields it's hard to get any real evidence differentiating the two.

I think it just depends on the M.Div program you're in. My M.Div allowed me a lot of room to shape it into a theology program (15 hours of required systematic and historical theological courses and 15 hours of electives, all of which were either theology courses/master's thesis) and I've been told that it's a fairly competitive degree by my POIs in different programs. It may be worth it for you to ask admissions if graduates from your seminary get accepted into PhD programs and, if so, if they have a list of schools where they have been accepted. 

[AGingeryGinger]

33 minutes ago, tdwightdavis said:

I think it just depends on the M.Div program you're in. My M.Div allowed me a lot of room to shape it into a theology program (15 hours of required systematic and historical theological courses and 15 hours of electives, all of which were either theology courses/master's thesis) and I've been told that it's a fairly competitive degree by my POIs in different programs. It may be worth it for you to ask admissions if graduates from your seminary get accepted into PhD programs and, if so, if they have a list of schools where they have been accepted. 

Thank you, that helped immensely. If you don't mind answering, where did you do your MDiv at?

As I put earlier, my main goal is to work within the church. And because of the way seminaries (I'm Anglican) work, they generally prefer to hire previous graduates. So while that does tend to limit my application process for Masters Programs, it does at least grantee a better shot at a job upon graduation. The RE seminary was rather interested in my current thesis topic that I want to continue (they currently lack anyone with that specialization in that field). The two main places that I have narrowed down for an MDiv are Reformed Episcopal Seminary and Trinity School for Ministry. RE seminary is my own denomination, while TSM is the "umbrella" denominational seminary. RE Seminary has placed students in University of Pennsylvania, Temple, and Lutheran Seminary. TSM's faculty are from University of Chicago, Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews, Durham, and King's College to name a few. And they continually get people into those schools, especially Cambridge for NT studies.

So going from Trinity School for Ministry to a larger school for PhD work could be a viable option. My only concern was of the RE seminary. Denomination wise they would be a wonderful fit, and due to my end goal eventually being to work there it would help to go there for studies. However, TSM's program places students in "higher tier" schools.

[menge]

6 hours ago, AGingeryGinger said:

I've realized the same thing. The difference is often subtle and yet a major one. From what I've looked at from divinity schools at say Duke, Emory, etc. they offer "Christian Theological Studies" which is essentially a catch all for any subject within that field, especially Historical Theology. For even if "historical theology" isn't *specifically* offered, I've seen may people say to get a degree in systematic theology and focus on historical studies, for it is literally the exact same thing. For example, while Duke doesn't specifically offer historical theology, there is a professor at U of Chicago who teaches Reformation studies who's degree is from Duke with the emphasis on Christian Theological Studies.

And I agree, I do feel that a seminary or Divinity School would be much better than a religious studies department. At the moment, i plan on continuing my current thesis over the debate between John Frith and Thomas More over the concept of heresy within the Eucharist and Purgatory in Pre-Reformation England, while expanding the debate further to include theologians such as Tyndale and the Lollard 'Heresy'. Essentially doing a catch-all of pre-reformation England, and using Matthew Milner's methodology of Sense Perception to analyze Pre reformation England, which as of today still has yet to be studied at all.

Some schools I have looked at (over the spectrum of First and Second Tier, again I'm concerned how much the small Anglican seminary will help or hurt me) are: Vanderbilt (Peter Lake is wonderful), Emory (fantastic early modern), U of Chicago (because of their historical studies program), Marquette, Baylor, Garrett Theological, and Fordham.

If you are thinking the seminary/divinity school route is where you're likely to end up for a PhD you might consider Calvin Seminary under Richard Muller (they do fully fund their PhD's), though the Calvin name won't carry the same cache as some of those other schools on your list, and it is probably theologically much narrower than many others on your list.  Ultimately it probably depends on what kind of place you will feel comfortable at and where you eventually want to teach. Calvin wouldn't be my cup of tea, but it might be yours or someone else's. 

*Edit: Forgot to add before, but the reason I mentioned Calvin is that I know of PhD student there doing work on English puritans - specifically Davenant, but also Baxter, etc.

Edited January 15, 2016 by menge

[tdwightdavis]

5 hours ago, AGingeryGinger said:

Thank you, that helped immensely. If you don't mind answering, where did you do your MDiv at?

As I put earlier, my main goal is to work within the church. And because of the way seminaries (I'm Anglican) work, they generally prefer to hire previous graduates. So while that does tend to limit my application process for Masters Programs, it does at least grantee a better shot at a job upon graduation. The RE seminary was rather interested in my current thesis topic that I want to continue (they currently lack anyone with that specialization in that field). The two main places that I have narrowed down for an MDiv are Reformed Episcopal Seminary and Trinity School for Ministry. RE seminary is my own denomination, while TSM is the "umbrella" denominational seminary. RE Seminary has placed students in University of Pennsylvania, Temple, and Lutheran Seminary. TSM's faculty are from University of Chicago, Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews, Durham, and King's College to name a few. And they continually get people into those schools, especially Cambridge for NT studies.

So going from Trinity School for Ministry to a larger school for PhD work could be a viable option. My only concern was of the RE seminary. Denomination wise they would be a wonderful fit, and due to my end goal eventually being to work there it would help to go there for studies. However, TSM's program places students in "higher tier" schools.

I did my M.Div at Beeson Divinity School. It's a fairly small school, but some good scholars there. I'm also an Anglican. Beeson has a pretty big Anglican presence and a certificate in Anglican studies available. They also have a good track record with sending students to PhD programs (I know we've sent students off to Vanderbilt, Baylor, Duke, and Boston College as well as some UK programs). May be worth looking into for you. 

Edited January 15, 2016 by tdwightdavis

[theophany]

A couple of things, randomly:

On January 14, 2016 at 10:10 PM, AGingeryGinger said:

I know religion is slightly different from history (program wise) where many do terminal MA's then do either a Phd at a school or a combine MA/PhD at a school. Because I've never seen a religion program that offers a combined MA/PhD or MTS/PhD, I wasn't sure whether picking up an MA after the MDiv would help at all.

When you're seeing the MAs and PhDs from the same schools, it's often a case of gaining an MA "en route" to the PhD; schools will often award PhD students an MA after passing comprehensive exams or having the prospectus accepted (the reasons for this date to the historical status of teachers at the university needing to hold an MA). There are occasions that people will do an additional MA/MTS/MAR, especially if they need to learn additional languages. But often when you see someone's degrees listed as "BA, MDiv, MA, PhD," that MA is "en route."

On January 14, 2016 at 5:53 PM, AGingeryGinger said:

So going from Trinity School for Ministry to a larger school for PhD work could be a viable option. My only concern was of the RE seminary. Denomination wise they would be a wonderful fit, and due to my end goal eventually being to work there it would help to go there for studies. However, TSM's program places students in "higher tier" schools.

The sad reality of the job market is that there are people with degrees from the top-tier who don't have jobs, and people are scrounging for whatever they can get. You should absolutely make decisions on fit, but also, since you have an job endgame in mind, you should be very conscious of what is going to line you up to get a job. You know more about your denomination than I do, but generally, being an alumnus of a particular institution is very low on the list of considerations for hires; they are going to care a lot more about your scholarship and teaching.

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/15/2016 at 11:41 PM, tdwightdavis said:

On 1/15/2016 at 11:41 PM, tdwightdavis said:

I did my M.Div at Beeson Divinity School. It's a fairly small school, but some good scholars there. I'm also an Anglican. Beeson has a pretty big Anglican presence and a certificate in Anglican studies available. They also have a good track record with sending students to PhD programs (I know we've sent students off to Vanderbilt, Baylor, Duke, and Boston College as well as some UK programs). May be worth looking into for you. 

I did my M.Div at Beeson Divinity School. It's a fairly small school, but some good scholars there. I'm also an Anglican. Beeson has a pretty big Anglican presence and a certificate in Anglican studies available. They also have a good track record with sending students to PhD programs (I know we've sent students off to Vanderbilt, Baylor, Duke, and Boston College as well as some UK programs). May be worth looking into for you. 

I have looked into Beeson. I know there is a student currently studying historical theology there who had his MDiv from Beeson. My only concern was funding. All of the schools I am applying to offer the option for full funding. Although I know Beeson's funding is close to full (about $10k/yr with total tuition being about $13k/yr) that was a slight dissuasion. Assuming the deadline isn't passed, I'm going to definitely check them out again and start the application here shortly. Thank you for the input!

[AGingeryGinger]

5 hours ago, theophany said:

A couple of things, randomly:

When you're seeing the MAs and PhDs from the same schools, it's often a case of gaining an MA "en route" to the PhD; schools will often award PhD students an MA after passing comprehensive exams or having the prospectus accepted (the reasons for this date to the historical status of teachers at the university needing to hold an MA). There are occasions that people will do an additional MA/MTS/MAR, especially if they need to learn additional languages. But often when you see someone's degrees listed as "BA, MDiv, MA, PhD," that MA is "en route."

The sad reality of the job market is that there are people with degrees from the top-tier who don't have jobs, and people are scrounging for whatever they can get. You should absolutely make decisions on fit, but also, since you have an job endgame in mind, you should be very conscious of what is going to line you up to get a job. You know more about your denomination than I do, but generally, being an alumnus of a particular institution is very low on the list of considerations for hires; they are going to care a lot more about your scholarship and teaching.

I know the MA/PhD was generally geared more towards History (to name one) than in Religion. Generally speaking, I can only really think of 2 schools that offer a ThM or MA along the way. Talking with one of the professors I am close with, Historical Theology is this really weird field because its essentially rather interdisciplinary. For that reason, I've seen as many professors doing Historical Theology with the BA, MDiv, Phd route as I have seen the BA, Ma (terminal), MDiv, and then PhD. So it makes for a confusing matter.

Regarding Historical theology, it can be done going from MDiv to PhD, and many do. However, the field is so interdisciplinary I've seen it go both ways. Which is terribly confusing.

[theophany]

29 minutes ago, AGingeryGinger said:

I know the MA/PhD was generally geared more towards History (to name one) than in Religion. Generally speaking, I can only really think of 2 schools that offer a ThM or MA along the way.

Eh, not really. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia (both of which also award the MPhil en route), and Stanford—just off the top of my head—do MAs en route in religion. But again, religion itself is highly interdisciplinary, and so you have to use masters degree(s) as preparation for the PhD as seems to fit the course of research.

[AGingeryGinger]

5 hours ago, theophany said:

Eh, not really. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia (both of which also award the MPhil en route), and Stanford—just off the top of my head—do MAs en route in religion. But again, religion itself is highly interdisciplinary, and so you have to use masters degree(s) as preparation for the PhD as seems to fit the course of research.

That's something to look into. Thank you for that. I was aware there were some, like I mentioned, but wasn't aware there much were more than that. Doing the MPhil en route would certainly be the preferably option (location and funding wise) than trying to pick up an MA in a related field such as History.

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/14/2016 at 4:06 PM, fides quarens intellectum said:

You certainly can go from M.Div to PhD work.  If you're going to do work in historical theology, ancient language work would be particularly important so, if you don't have any languages yet, it might be worth working on that at this point to help your application strength when you apply.  

My hope would be to pursue a PhD in Historical Theology with the emphasis on the Reformation period. So thankfully because its "British Studies" Latin would be the only extra language I would need to pick up (besides the modern French and German). Thankfully, the Greek and Hebrew learned during the MDiv will go a long way due to many of the writers (ie. Erasmus to name a popular one) were fond of using Greek in their writings.

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/16/2016 at 5:38 PM, theophany said:

Eh, not really. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia (both of which also award the MPhil en route), and Stanford—just off the top of my head—do MAs en route in religion. But again, religion itself is highly interdisciplinary, and so you have to use masters degree(s) as preparation for the PhD as seems to fit the course of research.

As someone doing doctoral studies, although I don't know your exact field specifically, for Historical Theology right now I'm considering doing an MA in History, an MDiv, and then Doctoral Studies. I feel that the MA in History would give me a great advantage in the field, especially when applying to Doctoral Programs at say University of Chicago or Emory than with just an MDiv. Would you recommend doing an MA in History and then an MDiv or just to do an MDiv?

[theophany]

On January 17, 2016 at 11:32 PM, AGingeryGinger said:

That's something to look into. Thank you for that. I was aware there were some, like I mentioned, but wasn't aware there much were more than that. Doing the MPhil en route would certainly be the preferably option (location and funding wise) than trying to pick up an MA in a related field such as History.

It's not preferable really, it's just a step that some schools do. It's not a separate degree. Same with the MA en route.

 

16 hours ago, AGingeryGinger said:

As someone doing doctoral studies, although I don't know your exact field specifically, for Historical Theology right now I'm considering doing an MA in History, an MDiv, and then Doctoral Studies. I feel that the MA in History would give me a great advantage in the field, especially when applying to Doctoral Programs at say University of Chicago or Emory than with just an MDiv. Would you recommend doing an MA in History and then an MDiv or just to do an MDiv?

Well, for one, masters degrees are rarely fully funded, so getting two is going to be a cost question. That's a lot of debt potentially. As for the MA in history, it really depends. Historical theology, as I said, is primarily theology, just in the past. It's not generally concerned with historiography, with as much archival work. If you were going to be doing, say, "history of Christianity" then I might say go with the MA if you're not able to twist the MDiv substantially toward history. But if it's really the theology you're interested in, I wouldn't take the extra time.

[Rabbit Run]

On January 14, 2016 at 1:54 PM, AGingeryGinger said:

Some schools I have looked at (over the spectrum of First and Second Tier, again I'm concerned how much the small Anglican seminary will help or hurt me) are: Vanderbilt (Peter Lake is wonderful), Emory (fantastic early modern), U of Chicago (because of their historical studies program), Marquette, Baylor, Garrett Theological, and Fordham.

Are you seeking ordination in the Reformed Episcopal Church? If not then I would suggest looking at an MTS, MA, or even an Mdiv for some at Vanderbilt Divinity, Emory's Candler school of theology (which has an Episcopal/Anglican studies concentration), or one of the other schools you've mentioned here. With PhD admissions as competitive as they are, going to a first tier school like Emory or Vanderbilt is a very smart move. Of course, other factors such as ordination may need to be accounted for.

If you want an Mdiv and are not constrained by your bishop's prerogative to either RE Seminary or Trinity, then I would suggest looking into Sewanee University's School of Theology, Yale Divinity School (particularly Berkeley Divinity School at Yale), or Virginia Theological Seminary. Being Episcopalian seminaries, they all have people doing Anglican studies, albeit maybe not exactly in your specially.

(Spoiler alert, I'm Episcopalian).

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/18/2016 at 3:19 PM, theophany said:

It's not preferable really, it's just a step that some schools do. It's not a separate degree. Same with the MA en route.

 

Well, for one, masters degrees are rarely fully funded, so getting two is going to be a cost question. That's a lot of debt potentially. As for the MA in history, it really depends. Historical theology, as I said, is primarily theology, just in the past. It's not generally concerned with historiography, with as much archival work. If you were going to be doing, say, "history of Christianity" then I might say go with the MA if you're not able to twist the MDiv substantially toward history. But if it's really the theology you're interested in, I wouldn't take the extra time.

Thank you. That was my main concern was how much the historiography and archival work was involved. Even looking at professors and people with Doctorates in that field, it had always greatly confused me how they just had an MDiv or MTS. I hadn't seen anyone in that field with an MA in History so it was why I was confused on the matter. That answer greatly helps, so it would be best to stick with the MDiv then. Thank you!

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/18/2016 at 6:38 PM, Rabbit Run said:

Are you seeking ordination in the Reformed Episcopal Church? If not then I would suggest looking at an MTS, MA, or even an Mdiv for some at Vanderbilt Divinity, Emory's Candler school of theology (which has an Episcopal/Anglican studies concentration), or one of the other schools you've mentioned here. With PhD admissions as competitive as they are, going to a first tier school like Emory or Vanderbilt is a very smart move. Of course, other factors such as ordination may need to be accounted for.

If you want an Mdiv and are not constrained by your bishop's prerogative to either RE Seminary or Trinity, then I would suggest looking into Sewanee University's School of Theology, Yale Divinity School (particularly Berkeley Divinity School at Yale), or Virginia Theological Seminary. Being Episcopalian seminaries, they all have people doing Anglican studies, albeit maybe not exactly in your specially.

(Spoiler alert, I'm Episcopalian).

My goal is twofold: one being ordination within the REC/ACNA and then secondly academics, with the eventual hope of working in an ACNA or REC seminary. My dilemma is that I am constrained to the Bishop's choice of schools, mainly RE seminary, Trinity School for Ministry, and Beeson. My foremost concern is ordination and then doing academics from there. With the recent ongoings with Canterbury and TEC, I had wanted to apply to Yale. However for the sake of having a job within my denomination I needed to play it safe when regarding seminaries the ACNA deems kosher.

However, I did apply to Emory because they are not technically a seminary and moreso a divinity school, As say compared to Berkley at Yale. It's a technicality, but a technicality that the ACNA can work with. With the MDiv program there I had to have the Bishop's recommendation for the Episcopal Studies program in writing, and I do. So right now my main options are Trinity School for Ministry and Emory for the MDiv. Thankfully, and this is where I am leaning, Trinity School for Ministry has a rather unusually outstanding faculty, especially when it comes to Anglicanism (being an Anglican seminary this makes sense). So pursuing historical theology in Anglicanism (16th century England is what I want to study) I feel that could give me a decent advantage with both seminary and future doctoral studies.

Then hopefully moving from TSM or Emory to say Emory or Vanderbilt for doctoral studies in Historical Theology could be good as well. Although I would personally give my left arm to study in England. Studying Anglicanism in the country of Anglicanism would be a dream, and many of the TSM faculty are Americans who studied there, however incurring egregious amounts of debt for a priest/seminary vocation doesn't seem like the best thing to do right now.

[AGingeryGinger]

On 1/18/2016 at 3:19 PM, theophany said:

It's not preferable really, it's just a step that some schools do. It's not a separate degree. Same with the MA en route.

 

Well, for one, masters degrees are rarely fully funded, so getting two is going to be a cost question. That's a lot of debt potentially. As for the MA in history, it really depends. Historical theology, as I said, is primarily theology, just in the past. It's not generally concerned with historiography, with as much archival work. If you were going to be doing, say, "history of Christianity" then I might say go with the MA if you're not able to twist the MDiv substantially toward history. But if it's really the theology you're interested in, I wouldn't take the extra time.

It's been about a month, and thankfully I do have news to report in... which made the situation slightly more complicated than it would have. As a pure backup plan I applied to the University of Cincinnati's Master's in History program. They have a very strong reformation studies program (one of my esteemed professors I have studied under did her Master's there in the exact area of study). Well in good news, I was offered a full tuition scholarship and graduate assistantship. It would be quite hard to top that offer, with places like Beeson at most only offering a scholarship that would cover about 90% tuition. The UC would provide full tuition and teaching experience/ a job in the field for two years.

While I still have full intentions of pursuing an MDiv and PhD in Historical Theology, unless Emory (the only other top tier school I applied to) offers a full tuition remission and stipend, it would be honestly rather hard to beat what UC is offering. My dilemma now is whether or not to take the offer of an MA in History (again, full tuition scholarship as well as guranteed assistantship for two years) and then use the MA as a springboard to get better funding for an MDiv at places such as Yale or University of Chicago. Furthermore the time at UC could allow me to further flesh out my area of study. Being rather young (I graduate in May and will just have turned 21 for about 2 weeks) there really isn't much of a constraint on time.

It seems that the offer at UC is too good to pass up and would certainly serve as a booster to the application to any top tier program with an MDiv in historical theology two years down the road. Tough decisions.

[marXian]

There are definitely a good number of people going into PhD programs in religious studies or theology with two master's degrees. I was in a situation similar to yours at the beginning of my grad school career. I had friends who were going to seminary and encouraging me to join them. Instead, I applied to MA programs in English literature (BA was in English) moving to Colorado from California to do it. While I was working on my thesis for that degree I realized that my interests were really in theology/philosophy of religion, so I ended up at seminary after my English MA. Having a "traditional" grad school experience prior to seminary was very beneficial. Seminaries and divinity schools sometimes don't feel all that different from undergraduate institutions because the class sizes are basically the same and because those kinds of programs admit students with any undergraduate background, so some courses can feel a bit "remedial" for a grad school course. My seminary felt that way especially coming from my English MA program. All of that to say that an MA in history will likely be a great experience for you and will definitely make you more competitive for PhD programs, since seminary degrees are generalist degrees. The history MA will allow you to narrow in and focus on your specific area of interest which will help you refine those interest much more than a seminary degree will.

Plus you're only 21!! I started grad school at 24 (my English MA) but I don't at all regret doing two master's degrees before beginning my PhD. 

[tdwightdavis]

8 hours ago, marXian said:

There are definitely a good number of people going into PhD programs in religious studies or theology with two master's degrees. I was in a situation similar to yours at the beginning of my grad school career. I had friends who were going to seminary and encouraging me to join them. Instead, I applied to MA programs in English literature (BA was in English) moving to Colorado from California to do it. While I was working on my thesis for that degree I realized that my interests were really in theology/philosophy of religion, so I ended up at seminary after my English MA. Having a "traditional" grad school experience prior to seminary was very beneficial. Seminaries and divinity schools sometimes don't feel all that different from undergraduate institutions because the class sizes are basically the same and because those kinds of programs admit students with any undergraduate background, so some courses can feel a bit "remedial" for a grad school course. My seminary felt that way especially coming from my English MA program. All of that to say that an MA in history will likely be a great experience for you and will definitely make you more competitive for PhD programs, since seminary degrees are generalist degrees. The history MA will allow you to narrow in and focus on your specific area of interest which will help you refine those interest much more than a seminary degree will.

Plus you're only 21!! I started grad school at 24 (my English MA) but I don't at all regret doing two master's degrees before beginning my PhD. 

If I get all rejections this year I'm considering applying to a couple of MA programs next year. I'm not 21 or 24, but 27 isn't a whole lot older so I'm not super concerned about how long it'll take to get to the PhD.

[AGingeryGinger]

9 hours ago, marXian said:

There are definitely a good number of people going into PhD programs in religious studies or theology with two master's degrees. I was in a situation similar to yours at the beginning of my grad school career. I had friends who were going to seminary and encouraging me to join them. Instead, I applied to MA programs in English literature (BA was in English) moving to Colorado from California to do it. While I was working on my thesis for that degree I realized that my interests were really in theology/philosophy of religion, so I ended up at seminary after my English MA. Having a "traditional" grad school experience prior to seminary was very beneficial. Seminaries and divinity schools sometimes don't feel all that different from undergraduate institutions because the class sizes are basically the same and because those kinds of programs admit students with any undergraduate background, so some courses can feel a bit "remedial" for a grad school course. My seminary felt that way especially coming from my English MA program. All of that to say that an MA in history will likely be a great experience for you and will definitely make you more competitive for PhD programs, since seminary degrees are generalist degrees. The history MA will allow you to narrow in and focus on your specific area of interest which will help you refine those interest much more than a seminary degree will.

Plus you're only 21!! I started grad school at 24 (my English MA) but I don't at all regret doing two master's degrees before beginning my PhD. 

Thank you for sharing all that! My biggest concern is that being at a secular university I don't truly have anyone that's remotely in the same boat of wanting to study theology as well as history. 

Just out of curiosity, what is your PhD in? I've known that people with two masters (i.e. In your case) blending theology and literature makes for not only a great candidate, but very unique topics due to the blend of masters degrees. 

I'm hoping that a similar case could be made for my eventual studies. My end goal is to study the history of Christianity with an emphasis on early Anglican theology. There is a professor at UC that I'm dying to work with who studies the development of reformation thought and heresy from the late medieval to early modern periods. So hopefully the blend of an MA in history having the historical background and an MDiv would give a great edge when applying to history of Christianity programs at say U of Chicago, Marquette, Boston college, Yale, Harvard etc.

the issue of practicality is another major topic. I'd be hard pressed to find another school offering a full tuition scholarship and assistantship. Using that as a springboard for a good MDiv in theology such as beeson, Princeton theological, Yale, Vanderbilt, etc. would make the history MA invaluable. 

Thank you again for your help, it's certainly setting my mind at ease about the chaos of graduate admissions.