Batten MPP or Georgetown SSP?

[Strail19]

Hello Everyone!

I have been working on applications for months now, and I guess its finally decision time. I didn't get in to any of my top 3, so i'm struggling a bit to figure out which choice is best. I've narrowed it down to 2 main options: Virginia's Batten MPP or Georgetown SSP.  The differences in program focus are obvious, and I'm concentrating on sorting that bit out on my own. Here, I would like to ask for advice primarily in the realm of return on investment.

Batten provided significant funding, Georgetown offered none. So, in tuition alone Georgetown would be about double UVA. Double. Then consider living expenses - I can easily get a room in Charlottesville for around $500, DC would be closer to double that as well. I can support myself in Charlottesville on a basic student job, but in DC I would most certainly be looking for something more significant while i'm in school. 

If my goal is to work in the public sector, taking on enormous debt is risky. My question is - would Georgetown afford me significantly greater opportunities than Batten? Living, working, and making connections in DC would certainly help, but I was attracted to Batten originally because of it's proximity to DC anyway. I am confident that UVA will create decent career opportunities and that I would leave grad school without enormous debt. Can I be confident that the debt at Georgetown is worth it? Can I expect my earning potential and job options to be that much higher with Georgetown, or is it as risky as it seems?

I understand none of this is certain. I think i would be taking a risk on UVA as a relatively new program. And, I understand the more important decision is figuring out which program is a better fit for my goals. I'll work on that - but any advice on my ROI concerns is greatly appreciated in the mean time.

[dean3837]

 

It's likely you already made a choice but in case you have not and others that might find themselves in a similar position in the future I will comment. First, when pondering a career in public service, you must consider how much the degree costs. Most public policy graduates don't land lucrative jobs right away like our counterparts at top MBA or Law schools. For example, the equivalent consulting position offered to a UVA or Georgetown MBA will start with a salary over $50,000 higher than their MPP counterparts. You can't undervalue cost of attendance. An MPP graduate from either Georgetown or UVA will lead to a successful career, and you will make enough money to pay your student loan and live a comfortable life.

But ask yourself, is any school worth hundreds of dollars more a month for 10+ years? After you reach certain tiers of institutions, specific differences don't matter as much and cost should become a deciding factor. Georgetown and UVA are in the same echelon. Remember, going to graduate school is as much about gaining more education/skills as it is signaling to the job market you are an acceptable candidate. For the record, if Georgetown was cheaper I would argue you should go to Georgetown. If the both schools cost exactly the same, you probably should still choose Georgetown but I don't think the gap in schools are as big as one might think.

Okay, with that out of the way I will give you my admittedly bias take. I earned my MPP from Batten and went to undergrad at UVA. I am not familiar with strengths and weaknesses of Georgetown so I can not speak to that. 

I will say when considering any professional school, particularly public policy school, you should consider the overall institution's reputation. For example, I doubt anyone would choose either UVA or Georgetown over Harvard or Princeton. With that said, UVA and Georgetown's reputation are about equal. Both have a strong alumni base in Washington with graduates who will help you land an outstanding internship and job. Both place many graduates into the PMF program, and both send a lot of graduates into public sector consulting. 

While Batten is a new school, UVA has an established track record of creating outstanding professional schools. UVA's law and architecture schools are consistently ranked in the top 10, and the business ranked in the top 15. All of UVA's professional schools are better regarded than Georgetown's (slightly but still). This matters for two reasons. Firstly, as a student at UVA, you can take classes in all these schools. I completed 18 credit hours outside of Batten. Secondly, after a few years, most folks care more about the overall reputation of the Univeristy more than the specific reputation of the school you went to. Additionally, student quality does not vary as much as you might think from graduate school to graduate school -- here is UVA's GPA/GRE/GMAT statistics as proof. The punchline? A University admits about the same quality of student across all of its schools. As mentioned above, Georgetown and UVA are roughly equivalent. 

Anecdotally, if my classmates are any indication, Batten can help get you where you want to go. They have landed at:

• World Bank
• IMF
• State Department
• Congressional staffers 
• International development: Chemonix among other places 
• Multiple PMFs with rotations at OMB, Labor, White House, Dept. of Education, State
• Consulting: Bain, Mckinsey, Deloitte, Accenture, Navigant  
• Goldman Sachs
• Think tanks: Brookings, Center for American Progress, American Enterprise Insitute, Pew  
• City / State Government including state of Virginia and NYC 
• Federal Reserve
• FBI
• CIA
• Other competitive fellowships

I would argue Batten places its graduates comparatively as well as UVA's other top professional schools. The school has a lot of resources and deploys them to ensure their graduates are successful. I would also argue, UVA has more to offer than Georgetown. It is a bigger University. If you want, you can take classes in any school you wish. UVA is consistently excellent in all of its graduate education. Yes, you are not in Washington but being a few hours removed has its advantages. Furthermore, it does not stop UVA from bringing top government officials and scholars to grounds to speak and teach. I encourage you to check out the folks Batten brings to ground but also UVA's politics department and the Miller Center for Public Affairs (an institution with $100 million endowment dedicated to public policy/history research). 

Keep in mind any public policy school will not automatically hand you a career path in quite the same way a top Law school or an MBA program will. You will need to put considerable effort into your internship and job search. But with equal effort applied at either Georgetown or UVA, I doubt the outcomes would differ all that much.

I have not talked about the education experience. I found Batten provides ample opportunity to work on real-world policy projects with high-level policy professionals. I was offered both my internship and job based on projects I completed in the classroom. For my capstone, I was able to work with a senior official at a government agency. Additionally, I was able to meet and speak with the top experts in my chosen field. UVA/Batten helped me gain the access, but ultimately I made it happen by cold calling alumni. 

I would presume, at Georgetown, less effort is required to craft the educational experience to fit your needs. The program is more established, larger and has more developed specialties. This is both good and bad. Just know, I found you can make your Batten experience and education whatever you want it to be. You can leverage the entire UVA institution, not just the Batten School, to launch an exciting and rewarding career. 

Plus, if it is cheaper, why not Batten? 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by dean3837

[MD guy]

@dean3837 über helpful information. Thanks for sharing!!

[alan2016]

I feel quite compelled to respond to this as I too went to UVA for both undergrad and an MPP. I also contemplated this very decision between Batten and Georgetown a few years ago.

 

First, yes, cost is very important and it is probably not worth hundreds to thousands of dollars more per month to earn this degree. Public Policy school teaches important foundational knowledge and skills, but salaries at this first-professional school are typically quite lower (at least to start) than Law or Business degrees at both institutions. So double the cost should be a necessary deterrent, but consider a few things: First, “Average net price for Batten School M.P.P. students in 2014-15 was $7,004 for in-state students and $12,942 for out-of state students, which equates to a discount rate of 54%.” (http://www.virginia.edu/bov/meetings/'15Mar/March%202015%20Finance%20Book.Final.pdf, page 13). If you have an offer that requires tuition at Batten significantly above this, it would be wise to renegotiate or consider attending another school. Secondly, call Georgetown or go meet with them and explain your situation. It certainly will not hurt your case for more aid and the worst that they can do is say no to more aid.

 

As I did not attend Georgetown, I cannot speak to its specific strengths and weaknesses, but there are some substantive educational differences from just observing public source data. First, from a rough comparison of course offerings, Georgetown offers approximately 40 electives this coming year exclusively in Public Policy (https://myaccess.georgetown.edu/pls/bninbp/bwckschd.p_get_crse_unsec - search public policy). By comparison, Batten offers 18 electives for the same semester (http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/mySIS/CS2/page.php?Semester=1168&Type=Group&Group=PPOL). Second, class size is important in developing relationships with both professors and classmates. Using the same sources, you can anticipate being in classes of 40-50 students for both Policy Foundations (Leadership) and Research Methods courses at UVA. At Georgetown, Statistical Methods classes are capped at 25 and Public Policy Process courses at 20 students (both of which correspond to enrollment numbers in past semesters per their database). If you value learning from and interacting with faculty directly, this is important. Also along these lines, how are your quantitative skills? I found that many of my classmates struggled in this area and a lecture of 45+ students was not the best learning environment for them.

 

Also, yes, in theory you it is possible to take classes at “all” of UVA’s professional schools as a Public Policy student, but in practice this can be quite difficult. MBA and Law classes were almost impossible to get into for students not dual-enrolled with these schools. Often their registration processes made it so that Policy students had to forego courses in the Batten school to try (and fail) to get into interesting/relevant Law and MBA courses. Other schools are far more flexible, but if you hope to supplement your education from these top flight schools be very aware that it is unlikely to happen. These schools (specifically Law and Darden) are quite territorial and while the data show that student quality is similar across all the various schools they do not see Batten students as being of similar quality.

 

Finally, many Batten graduates do end up in renowned organizations like the ones listed, but, at least in my experience, this is almost exclusively a result of individual hard work to obtain these positions. UVA’s Public Policy school has very few pipelines to place graduates at these institutions. Expect to cold call and drop resumes via USAjobs a lot. I also think that location is a far bigger deal than dean3837 lets on here. If your goal is to work in a federal agency you should strongly consider a policy school in/near DC (to include GMU, American, Maryland, etc.). The reason for this is that many federal agencies offer academic-year internship programs (pathways and non-pathways) that provide direct access to both experience and non-competitive hiring. Though a few of my classmates were able to take advantage of such offers at UVA, this was definitely the exception and it came at the expense of academic opportunities due to commuting to and working in the DC area. If you review the course schedule at Georgetown again, you will notice that many courses are taught in the evenings which allows for further flexibility in work opportunities as well. As obtaining employment in the desired field should be (at least it was for me) the number one goal in graduate studies, this advantage offered by DC-area schools cannot be overlooked.

 

Overall, my advice to anyone planning to pursue an MPP is as follows:

·      What is your career goal and how will your chosen school get you there? (Have a specific job title/path in mind. This can change, but given the time and money involved it’s important to have a firm idea of what the end state is up front.)

·      Arrange/negotiate your financial aid prior to enrollment. Do not wait for or rely on advertisements of future scholarships or assistantships from the school. Also, if schools advertise research assistant positions, ask how many and with what professors and demand to know the process in hiring (i.e. how do professors select students for these positions and how often are such positions advertised?).

·      Ask the following of admissions officers and demand specific and quantifiable answers:

o   How many students will be in my core classes?

o   Do professors grade and give substantive feedback on assignments (as opposed to graders/TAs—especially course capstone assignments)? This is important as you will have to provide writing samples for many employers.

o   Do professors offer professional contacts to help students get jobs? How? (Yes, you will have to do some work to develop relationships with professors, but you are also investing a significant amount of time and money here. It should not be a tough process to have the people whom you both pay and work hard for academically invest in your success.)

[thex11factor]

On 4/15/2016 at 10:43 PM, dean3837 said:

 

It's likely you already made a choice but in case you have not and others that might find themselves in a similar position in the future I will comment. First, when pondering a career in public service, you must consider how much the degree costs. Most public policy graduates don't land lucrative jobs right away like our counterparts at top MBA or Law schools. For example, the equivalent consulting position offered to a UVA or Georgetown MBA will start with a salary over $50,000 higher than their MPP counterparts. You can't undervalue cost of attendance. An MPP graduate from either Georgetown or UVA will lead to a successful career, and you will make enough money to pay your student loan and live a comfortable life.

 

 

 

bump

I'm wondering what this difference is: $100k vs. $50k? $150k vs100k?