Help me decide, please?

[anon]

So, I've got it narrowed down to 2 schools (for chem grad school)

Option 1:

The better school- the department has a lot of funding, its ranked higher, etc.

In a better city-the public transportation is good so I won't need a car

At least 2 profs I would like to work with

Less friendly department- some of the profs seem really arrogant and they are often not around (one of the profs was actually 20 min late to my appointment on the visit weekend)

The students seem a little less happy

Closer to home

Option 2-

More friendly and laid back environment

They have more problems with funding

Less prestigious

City isn't quite as cool

2 or 3 profs I would like to work with

I really don't know what to think. I know that Option 1 is the better school in a lot of aspects, but I don't know if they have the kind of environment I would want to work in for 6 years.....

Anyone have any advice?

[marajade]

seems like a hard choice. environment is important, but so is funding. were the arrogant/tardy profs the ones you wanted to work with? i'd probably base the decision based on the person you'd most likely want as your advisor and what his/her students are like. these are the people you'd be spending the most time with. best of luck!

[Minnesotan]

It might be helpful to name names here. As much as we all hate to admit it, an unhappy 5 years at Yale beat the hell out of a loving, touchy feel-fest at Johns Hopkins.

BTW, 20 minutes late from an even moderately well-known prof is a breath of fresh air compared to some places (Berkeley's self-important hippies could forget you for months on end).

Also, the urban uni versus college town uni is a major issue. You really need to figure out which you prefer, though it sounds like you'd prefer the UChicago environment over the Maryland-College Park area.

[joninnyc2]

seems like a hard choice. environment is important, but so is funding. were the arrogant/tardy profs the ones you wanted to work with? i'd probably base the decision based on the person you'd most likely want as your advisor and what his/her students are like. these are the people you'd be spending the most time with. best of luck!

I agree that if the profs you want to work with at school1 were what you were looking for then not to let the entire faculty of the deparment sway you too much (assuming they're taking students and are interested in letting you rotate). Every large group of people has a few that are going to rub some one the wrong way.

One of the more nebulous possibilities that I'm just speculating on here... but if it's a prestigious school that's well funded means that the research is active and very good, resulting in more funding, and better rankings for the department. Profs don't do the dirty work on research, but it still consumes a lof of their time, combined with teaching responsibilities, paper writing/editing, and most painful is grant writing for them. Add that to the standard deparment business, and recruitment/interviews and the unfortunate situation is that many of the profs really are swamped.

Part of the decision for ya sounds geographic too, public transit is really handy (and helps save money). I'm in nyc, and the money I save from not paying $100 a month on gas, $100 a month on insurance, car upkeep, parking permit, etc really helps offset the cost of living difference between big city and small city where I needed a car. If you can live where you don't need to commute to work is an even bigger time/money saver for you.

Also there's a huge difference between students seem "a little less happy" and something like unhappy, lacking all joy, miserable, lacking a will to live, I think you see where I'm going with that. A little less happy is not bad compared to not able to find a lab that can afford to keep a student, or a department unable to support students. See if the better funded department has any other benefits such as a travel allowance that is not offered by school2.

Either way, you're in a better situation than others having two offers and having to make a choice. Congratulations, and g'luck!

[rocket]

Anon,

I would focus on the facts. Funding is a fact, public transportation is a fact, closeness to your home city is a fact. But things like "it seems like people are not very happy there" are very subjective and not well-founded. I wound't use such things as criterias for deciding, because things like "happiness" and "good environment" depends on many factors that you can not control at all.

I would go for the first school you mention, and congratulations for been accepted!

[anon]

Thanks for all the advice. To answer your questions, one of the arrogent professors and the "late professor" at Choice 1 (its Northwestern to answer "minnesotan") were professors I was interested in. But I talked to one of the girls in the "late professor" group and she said that he was available when you really need him (this was while we were drinking so I think it was the truth) and she seemed to genuinely like the group. There is at least one other professor who I've heard nothing but good things about at Northwestern who I could see myself working with.

As for happiness levels, it just seemed like the people were much more laid back at Choice 2 (Johns Hopkins to answer "minnesotan") and I would feel less like a small fish in a big pond there. But I suppose feeling comfortable isn't what grad school is all about.

I just feel a little lost at the moment. I think that I would feel less stressed if I ended up at JHU but at the same time, I think I might regret turning down a school that is ranked in the top 5 in my field. Blah.

PS I am also from Minnesota.

[joninnyc2]

I'm not exactly up on chemistry rankings but Johns Hopkins is ranked lower than Northwestern?

Do you like living in Baltimore is another big question?

Would you be at the Homewood campus (<- I think that's the name) or Medical Campus?

[Minnesotan]

It seems everyone is from Minnesota around here!

I agree with Jon - but I'm in the humanities (history) - JHU is a pretty big deal for us. Surprising it isn't for chem.

As for cities, you'll never hear someone in Chicago wish they were in Baltimore. That's for sure!

[anon]

Its not like JHU is bad in chemistry, (according to the US News ranking they are around 25) its just that Northwestern is better and they have more money. Both are good programs, I just have to choose one. As for which campus I would be on, the chem department is on the Homewood campus, so its on the better of the two (much safer and nicer looking).

Another thing, I was really hoping to end up on the east coast for grad schoo. Northwestern is the only school I applied to in the midwest. I was just hoping to get a change of environment for grad school. But if I end up going to NWern, I suppose I can always do an exotic post doc or something.

[joninnyc2]

out of curiousity, what area of chemistry are you looking at (pchem, organic, inorganic, etc)?

[anon]

I want to do bioinorganic chem.

[rising_star]

I'd pick the school where you'll be happier. 6 years of grad school is a long time not to be happy.

[anon]

That's the problem brittdreams, I don't know where I would be happier!

[trendytotebag]

Well, can you elaborate on the "problems with funding"? If you are going to have to worry about scraping for funding every year or working outside of school, that can add a lot of stress.

I am having a similar fish vs. pond size problem choosing between schools right now. I'd love to hear what some other people have to say about whether it makes sense to choose a lower-ranked/less "good" department because you feel like at the "better" department, you might be a little bit out of your league. Would you rather be a great student at a decent school or a decent student at a great school?

[glabkl]

To be candid, I don't think that there's a big difference in the prestige of JHU versus Northwestern. Northwestern is more well-known for inorganic chemistry; JHU is more well-known for biochemistry. Bioinorganic chemistry, of course, bridges these two fields. Although the name of the school you choose will stick with you throughout your career, the connections and 'prestige' of the advisor you choose will be more important for securing a postdoc position and a job after graduation.

Nor do I give a lot of weight to the argument that 'graduate students seem happier' at one school versus another. There are happy and unhappy people at every school. You have to think specifically about what makes YOU happiest. As long as you know what you want and you know what you’re getting yourself into, things usually work out for the best.

I'll use myself as an example. I visited Caltech at the beginning of March. Grad sudents there all seemed happy to me, and several admitted that they chose to attend Caltech rather than east coast schools because Caltech students 'seemed happier'. I visited Stanford and Berkeley the next weekend. Grad students at Berkeley did not seem any happier than Caltech students (they, in fact, seemed less satisfied with living arrangements and TAing), but my grad student host told me that he chose Berkeley over Caltech because students 'seemed happier' there.

I went to MIT last weekend fearing that I’d meet a bunch of disgruntled graduate students because, deep down, I knew I wanted to go to MIT for the following reasons: (1) Despite California's great weather, I'd rather live in Boston than Pasadena; (2) the research at MIT better complements my interests; and (3) Boston will be a great place for my boyfriend to get a job after he has finished his postdoc. Now, after visiting MIT, I've come to the conclusion that it's the place for me. Yes, I will admit that MIT has a more ‘intense’ atmosphere than that of the west coast schools. But I couldn’t tell you if the difference is in the people or the lack of flowers on MIT’s campus. I found it more important to analyze the dynamics of the particular research groups that I'm interested in than the school’s overall ‘atmosphere’, which is a rather abstract trait. I know that I like large (~20 person) groups that work hard, but without micro-management by the advisor. I want an advisor who will give me ideas and inspiration when my project's not going well, not one who's counting the number of hours I'm in lab or looking over my shoulder every day. There are professors at MIT who demand a lot from their students, and many students thrive in this group dynamic. But there are also very hands-off professors who expect their students to be creative and choose which directions to take their research projects. Most schools have a variety of advisors so that students with different needs can all be happy.

I'm happy with my decision to go to MIT because (1) the institution is full of research that excites me; (2) the research groups I'm most interested in working with have work ethics that suit my needs; and (3) I don't care as much for California sunshine as I do for Boston culture and subways. Obviously, you have different choices and different criteria, but I hope that the reasoning which led me to my decision will help you with your own decision. One last piece of advice from Justin DuBois (Stanford): Describe the schools you’ve visited to someone you trust and let that person tell you which you’d rather attend. Often, other people can read you better than you can read yourself. I would add that you shouldn’t say the names of the schools – listeners usually have personal biases.

Good luck!

p.s. I’m a Minnesotan, too!

[anon]

Trendytotebag, at JHU, people usually end up TAing for longer than at Northwestern because some professors can't afford to take over their funding. Everyone gets funded somehow, its just that some have to TA more for it.

I chose to be a great student at a decent school for undergrad. I don't know if I'm ready to give up the "great" status yet.

[joninnyc2]

Knowing little about bioinorganic chemistry specifically (I did p-chem research in undergrad, a summer of bioinformatics, and am in a biomedical science phd program) I'd say Hopkins. They're one of the most recognizable names in anything biology or medically related things, and assuming there's an excellent potential mentor or two there for you, there are definite benefits to being at a universally recognized school. just my $0.02 though.

[anon]

Thanks for all of the advice. Just to let you know, I decided on Northwestern. I think that the deciding factor was that the person I am most interested in is there. So, thats that.