Language Competency and Competitiveness

[cnreves]

Undergrad: Croft Institute for International Studies at the University of MississippiMajor: International Studies, concentration on East Asia/China

GPA: 3.65

GRE: V 660 Q 740 AN 6.0

Hi guys, first post. I'm applying to IR grad schools directly out of undergrad, so I realize I'm already at a disadvantage. Anyway, I had a few questions about my competitiveness. I've studied Mandarin Chinese for all 4 years of my undergraduate career including a semester abroad in Hangzhou, China through Middlebury College. Classes in China were taught only in Chinese. Anyway, since my work experience is seriously lacking (only had a summer internship at an international environmental NGO), I was hoping that my Chinese language experience would give me an edge of sorts. It seems like everyone speaks Spanish/French/etc these days, so I was wondering whether or not my Mandarin language capabilities would help me to get in. I feel like I made a strong case in my Personal Statements for my interest and competency at East Asian politics, and for some applications, I included descriptions of my undergraduate thesis on the politics of religion in China.

I've applied to Johns Hopkins SAIS, American University SIS, Columbia SIPA, Tufts Fletcher School, and Georgetown Masters of Foreign Service. Any commentary would be extremely appreciated by me. Thanks again.

[2010Applicant]

Frankly speaking, I think your chance isn't that great, but it's just because you lack working experience. You have a good background, and for your own benefit, I think you should really consider working even if one of those schools admits you. There are many reasons going for this: 1) your learning experience will absolutely be upgraded with a few years of WE, 2) you'll more likely get into one of the top schools, 3) you can hopefully save some money first. The first point is particularly true given that you're already an undergrad major in international studies. Your learning curve has probably flattened out and you need WE to get you to another level of thinking. Look at it this way: your U, GPA and GRE are all good but not enough to wow the admissions committee; in this case your WE is a liability. What we need to do is to make it into an asset, the real thing that gives them a reason to admit you. What you may consider is to try get into an intl organization with a good name that does work in Asia/China for a few years, so that you have a lot of UNIQUE experiences to talk about in your SOP and resume. Your Mandarin proficiency would probably impress more the employers than the adcoms.

Good luck!

[wendylee86]

Anyway, since my work experience is seriously lacking (only had a summer internship at an international environmental NGO), I was hoping that my Chinese language experience would give me an edge of sorts. It seems like everyone speaks Spanish/French/etc these days, so I was wondering whether or not my Mandarin language capabilities would help me to get in.

Have you thought about the fact you are also competing against people like me who grew up in Taiwan/China, thus fluent in Chinese and a local dialect, but also have mastered a romance language like French or Spanish? Not to mention international applicants from China/Taiwan, who obviously have a great level of Chinese and English. This is not to say you don't have a chance at all since you do have a very good background, but I'd agree that WE is important to set you apart. I'm afraid solely relying on the Chinese language ability isn't enough.

[Aunuwyn]

To the OP: you have a great profile just don't screw up the SOP and you are golden. You will make it in to AT LEAST three of those schools you have applied to.

To the people saying he wont get in: have you lost your minds? These type of degrees are not like MBAs work experience in the field (or lack thereof) is not going to exclude him.

[artist_lily]

I'm a little bit concerned about how harshly critical the posters above me (with the exception of the one directly above me) have been of the OP. I realize that this is crunch time, and everyone's looking out for him- or herself, but to suggest that the OP's way out of his league seems to me a bit callous. I'm particularly dismayed by the poster who questioned whether the OP realized he was up against people who grew up in China and then mastered yet another foreign language -- certainly, that's a terrific advantage, but I hardly think that's the norm, and even if it were, the way that this poster presents it (as if he's THE person to beat in admissions) is, in my opinion, a bit classless. Just take a deep breath, everyone -- we'll all get in somewhere, and I really see no need to disparage others because we're feeling nervous about our own chances.

[jkl444]

I'm a little bit concerned about how harshly critical the posters above me (with the exception of the one directly above me) have been of the OP. I realize that this is crunch time, and everyone's looking out for him- or herself, but to suggest that the OP's way out of his league seems to me a bit callous. I'm particularly dismayed by the poster who questioned whether the OP realized he was up against people who grew up in China and then mastered yet another foreign language -- certainly, that's a terrific advantage, but I hardly think that's the norm, and even if it were, the way that this poster presents it (as if he's THE person to beat in admissions) is, in my opinion, a bit classless. Just take a deep breath, everyone -- we'll all get in somewhere, and I really see no need to disparage others because we're feeling nervous about our own chances.

Thank you, artist_lily. I couldn't have expressed it better. When I read those first two replies, I felt ashamed to be an applicant.

Edited January 15, 2010 by mfr009

[wendylee86]

Thank you, artist_lily. I couldn't have expressed it better. When I read those first two replies, I felt ashamed to be an applicant.

You wanted commentary regarding the language competitiveness, so I gave you a commentary. But seriously, relax. You'll get in somewhere with your stats as long as you make a good case on the SOP.

[jkl444]

You wanted commentary regarding the language competitiveness, so I gave you a commentary. But seriously, relax. You'll get in somewhere with your stats as long as you make a good case on the SOP.

You're talking to the wrong person. I'm not the one who asked the question.

[cmnt29]

The question here is more than a matter of if you can get in (which I'd put at an 75% probability of getting into one of those), it is a matter of if should you attend.

Knowing a language as an American is a bonus when applying to schools, even if you aren't native, especially if you want to work for the three letter agencies, which do not hire foreigners. It is also good for U.S. firms if it is coupled with a core business competency.

That said, since you are still in college, even if you get in, should you attend? As some others have mentioned, a few years in the workforce would give you

-direction towards a career, and you may not give a rats a$$ about east asian politics in two years. you have been in academia for your entire life. Scoping out the real world may change your perspective on things.

-idea of what skills it takes to make it in your desired career

-maturity

--during graduate school it gives you the ability to better learn and contribute

--you'll get along with others better bc you'll be the same age (if you are 22 and they are 27, its tougher to relate)

--and after school you are much more employable if you already have work experience, thus leading to hire starting salary to pay off the crushing amount of debt that you are then wondering why you took on.

And last, like they said elsewhere, your academic record is strong enough that if you wait 3 years, you'll be able to choose from among these schools

and maybe squeeze some money out of them.

[2010Applicant]

I think my commentary is honest and constructive. 90% of my message is to discuss why working for a few years would be a better strategy, and I have laid out the reasons. The other 10% is my own assessment of his/her chance. I didn't rule him/her out, but I believe the chance isn't very high. I can be wrong, but that's an honest opinion, and I think he/she can improve her profile greatly by taking another path. Cnreves, I'll leave you to decide whether I am trying to offer help, or, simply attempting to discourage you. BTW, I have already been admitted to Fletcher. It's unlikely that I am nervous about my chances. I hope that artist_lily and mfr009 understand that the quality of this board isn't that bad.

[cmnt29]

2010app, you're ok in my book. Honesty > praise that we all expect in gen y

[cnreves]

You guys are crazy, hahaha. There's a lot more tension on this board that I would expect on a board about academia. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm glad everyone was honest about my chances...honestly, as you could see in my post, I'm not necessarily optimistic about my chances just because I know the odds are against me. I believe I read that SIPA admits something like 5-10% straight out of undergrad which is something like 50 people. I feel like I can compete against these undergrad types, but I know I don't compete against people with the work experience that you guys outline.

Also, I hope that all of academia doesn't have the pompousness that I've seen on parts of this board. It will be a sad state of affairs if this is so. Seriously people, step off of your pedestal. Regardless, thanks for all of your responses. I'm sure I'll post back when I get any info from my grad schools whether it be an acceptance or rejection.

Edited January 15, 2010 by cnreves

[jkl444]

You guys are crazy, hahaha. There's a lot more tension on this board that I would expect on a board about academia. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm glad everyone was honest about my chances...honestly, as you could see in my post, I'm not necessarily optimistic about my chances just because I know the odds are against me. I believe I read that SIPA admits something like 5-10% straight out of undergrad which is something like 50 people. I feel like I can compete against these undergrad types, but I know I don't compete against people with the work experience that you guys outline.

Also, I hope that all of academia doesn't have the pompousness that I've seen on parts of this board. It will be a sad state of affairs if this is so. Seriously people, step off of your pedestal. Regardless, thanks for all of your responses. I'm sure I'll post back when I get any info from my grad schools whether it be an acceptance or rejection.

Just a little tact. That's all it takes.

[cosmike10]

this thread is surprising. to the original poster, believe in your qualifications. i was impressed when i read your history. true, you don't have work experience, but if you are certain of your intentions for graduate study there is no reason you shouldn't apply now. but be very certain and articulate that in your sop. i think you will get into at LEAST one of those schools, if not more as long as you can portray yourself as focused on your interests.

by the way, i think learning a foreign language carries distinct advantages compared to speaking that language as a native. not to say one is better than the other, but it definitely says lots of very positive things about you.

if you are sure this is for you, best of luck. i hope you find a way to do exactly what you want.

[thombo]

School after school after school (at least in the top tier, which is where the OP has applied) emphasizes over and over the importance of work experience. I don't think it's pretentious or anything for some of the responders to point out that anyone, regardless of GRE and GPA, will be at a significant disadvantage. Is that to say that the OP should not apply (and I'm assuming he/she has already applied, so this is a moot thread)? No. But realistically, he/she is competing against applicants with similar number AND work experience, so yes, it is true, the OP will be at a disadvantage. Again, this is not to say he/she should not apply or will not be accepted at the programs to which he applied.

Now that being said, I absolutely agree that there is SIGNIFICANT value to work experience beyond just making your application more competitive. In the 3.5 years I've worked, I've gained a much much better understanding of what I want to focus on. I've worked with people in various fields and had the opportunity to figure out for sure what I do and don't like. Things I had no idea about upon graduation. These programs also value time living abroad (more than just a semester abroad), and there's a good reason for that.

In any case, I wish the OP the best of luck, but I also agree with others that I think there's a good case to be made for getting WE even if he/she gets accepted to one of the programs.

this thread is surprising. to the original poster, believe in your qualifications. i was impressed when i read your history. true, you don't have work experience, but if you are certain of your intentions for graduate study there is no reason you shouldn't apply now. but be very certain and articulate that in your sop. i think you will get into at LEAST one of those schools, if not more as long as you can portray yourself as focused on your interests.

by the way, i think learning a foreign language carries distinct advantages compared to speaking that language as a native. not to say one is better than the other, but it definitely says lots of very positive things about you.

if you are sure this is for you, best of luck. i hope you find a way to do exactly what you want.

[zourah]

I'd like to add as neutral a comment as possible to this conversation...

First, my perspective. Like the OP, I applied to grad school straight out of undergrad with good grades, good GREs, and only minimal WE. I had majored in French, minored in Spanish, and had a year of Arabic under my belt. I got rejected by HKS, Fletcher, and Georgetown MSFS. I was accepted at GW-Elliot. I worked two years and reapplied, and am now very, very happy at HKS.

So, to the OP - you'll get in somewhere if you want to go straight to grad school now. This board is filled with worries right now and it's completely understandable, but don't panic. That said, there is definitely some value to the advice to take some time, work a bit, and then apply. I wasn't at all happy to receive rejections, but I'm absolutely confident that I did the right thing in turning down GW and trying again. I can't say with any certainty that the same thing will happen to you, but if it does, I hope that you will weigh your options knowing that a year or two of life experience could unlock any doors that remain closed as of this application season.

Then again, I wish you the best of luck this spring!

[peregrin]

Hi, OP,

If it's any consolation to you, I also applied straight out of undergrad believing that I had little to no chance of an acceptance. I got into two top programs (HKS was one of them) with scholarship. I was a humanities double major who studied classical Latin. Don't doubt yourself, OP. It's not difficult to get into straight from undergraduate.

[Leica]

I'm surprised people are assuming it's easy to get an IR job out of undergrad these days... A lot of places won't even look at an applicant who isn't at least already a Master's student, and because the job market is still trying to recover, BAs will be up against MAs for jobs that would realistically consider them. To the OP: with your language skills, your semester abroad and one internship, I think you will be a good candidate for AU, I can't comment on any of your other choices as I have no knowledge of them. Working beforehand is great, but now it's become much more difficult to find something relevant. The comment above regarding the three-letter agencies after graduation was spot on, too, and I'd recommend going for a critical language scholarship as well. Good luck!

[cnreves]

I'm surprised people are assuming it's easy to get an IR job out of undergrad these days... A lot of places won't even look at an applicant who isn't at least already a Master's student, and because the job market is still trying to recover, BAs will be up against MAs for jobs that would realistically consider them. To the OP: with your language skills, your semester abroad and one internship, I think you will be a good candidate for AU, I can't comment on any of your other choices as I have no knowledge of them. Working beforehand is great, but now it's become much more difficult to find something relevant. The comment above regarding the three-letter agencies after graduation was spot on, too, and I'd recommend going for a critical language scholarship as well. Good luck!

Thanks, Leica. That is one of the main reasons that I am applying to grad schools straight out of undergrad. Students in the cohorts ahead of me are all having EXTREME difficulty in finding jobs after graduation. While I realize that my program does not necessarily have name recognition, APSIA representatives that have visited our program has commented that it is an upstanding program that can compete academically with some of the upper tier schools. Despite this, not many students have been able to find jobs. One has a job with the Department of Veterans Affairs because his dad was previously employed by them. Another student worked for the National Democratic Institute doing research on Latin America for less than $10 an hour, but then was unable to continue past one semester because she was unable to pay her bills on such a small salary. My point is that the job market for IR is not looking so great from what I can tell. The jobs that I would have been able to get out of undergrad just a few years ago are not taken by people with Masters degrees (presumably because all of the better jobs are taken).

I'm still looking for jobs (i.e. if anyone has any job leads for me, please feel free to message me), but I think that grad school is a much better option for me right now because of the job market.

[Leica]

Thanks, Leica. That is one of the main reasons that I am applying to grad schools straight out of undergrad. Students in the cohorts ahead of me are all having EXTREME difficulty in finding jobs after graduation. While I realize that my program does not necessarily have name recognition, APSIA representatives that have visited our program has commented that it is an upstanding program that can compete academically with some of the upper tier schools. Despite this, not many students have been able to find jobs. One has a job with the Department of Veterans Affairs because his dad was previously employed by them. Another student worked for the National Democratic Institute doing research on Latin America for less than $10 an hour, but then was unable to continue past one semester because she was unable to pay her bills on such a small salary. My point is that the job market for IR is not looking so great from what I can tell. The jobs that I would have been able to get out of undergrad just a few years ago are not taken by people with Masters degrees (presumably because all of the better jobs are taken).

I'm still looking for jobs (i.e. if anyone has any job leads for me, please feel free to message me), but I think that grad school is a much better option for me right now because of the job market.

Aye aye. That's the reason I went to grad school essentially straight out of undergrad (I took a year off, but I had no work experience before I applied, and while I did temp for a while before starting school, that can hardly be considered "relevant experience"); I'm graduating in May and I already have a full-time job in my field. In response to another comment above, while I did start grad school at 22, I had no trouble making friends/relating to people older than myself. There is something to be said for taking some time off, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary and I don't think taking time off solely for the sake of taking time off is the best idea in the current job market situation. It would be beneficial for people who have no access to loans and thus must rely solely on the generosity of their prospective programs (e.g., international students), or for people who have little to offer prospective employers upon graduation from a Master's program. You don't seem to fit into either category, and you do have a lot going for you, namely the critical language skills and the semester abroad. You sound like a great candidate and I'm sure you won't have trouble finding employment in DC afterwards.

[carpecc]

cnreves,

I agree with Leica, it's tough to find IR jobs these days and if already know what you want to do and get into a good program, then you should do it.

I'm a fellow sinophile and have worked in China's development field for years. Based on my investigations and meetings with admissions staff, schools are pretty pumped about Chinese skills. Also it is very true that the IR field has gotten really competitive within and outside of China (I'm assuming you want to do something China related). Sometimes even an MA isn't enough.

A couple of reasons. One, there's been a big move in China to localize development orgs over the past few years. Now if you're American and want to work in China, someone like you would be stuck in positions that have limited growth (communications, editing, translation, cross-country fundraising etc), which are already competitive and few and far between. It's much easier to jump into these, and management positions, if you've got that master's degree.

Second with the recession, there's just a lot more people on the street looking for jobs. Some of them have MAs, MBAs and have experience in some pretty significant positions. Even IR MA graduates are having trouble findings jobs. I was talking with some former SIPA students last summer and while before you get an MA and get some rad management or director level position, this time recent MA graduates are fighting for entry level positions. This was in NYC, which has gotten really competitive. The market in DC is better.

Granted if your tenacious and look hard enough you'll find some internships or volunteer opportunities somewhere, but wouldn't be great to jump right into a full time position?

Also with the MA you'll be able to do more, have a broader skill set, be able to take on better projects etc. You'll be more prepared for the type of work you want to do.

Work experience is great and important. It can expose you to some new ideas and build real practical expertise. From what I understand the average at most of these programs are about 27, a couple years out of school, a couple of years of work experience under their belt. Also with development and conservation work, the situation on the ground might be a different story than you imagined it to be. My experience doing development and conservation work has it's ups and down, but overall it's been great. But, if you already have a focused vision and know that an MA is what you need to get from point A to B, then definitely do it. You can accelerate the work experience you take on later.

Check out the job listings at http://www.chinadevelopmentbrief.com/ to gauge what kind of criteria NGOs in China are looking for.