Quality of Public Policy PhD Programs

[mpp_applicant]

I just found out I was admitted to a public policy PhD program (at a large, respected state university). It's the only PhD program I applied for because it's the only one I could find that seemed interested in applicants without a masters or research experience (I'm in my third year teaching high school since undergrad). The other programs I applied to are mostly MPPs: KSG MPP, WWS MPA, SAIS MA, Duke MPP, GPPI MPP, UMaryland MPP, American Econ MA.

I still have a couple months until I get my other decisions, but I want to start evaluating this PhD option. It seems pretty good for the following reasons:

- It will probably be funded and carry a stipend.

- My would-be adviser is awesome. Basically I'd be studying social policy (focusing on education) in developing countries.

- The curriculum looks good, there are small classes, and there are no masters students in this department.

- Profiles of current and past students seem pretty impressive. Several have masters degrees from WWS and other similar programs.

- The degree would give me a leg up in gov't / NGO / IO / think tank jobs, plus the option of academia.

I have my doubts because:

- Public Policy PhDs seem somewhat limiting in that you will always be equaled or trumped by Poli Sci or Econ PhDs, especially in academia.

- I cannot get a feel for the reputation of this program. It's not in the US News rankings (maybe because there's no master's program?).

- I have some doubts about placements after the program. Some have gone to World Bank, good academic jobs and various interesting research jobs, but others have nothing listed since their graduation. On this I can try to find out more from the school though.

What do you think? Should this PhD trump all masters options? How can I find out more about the reputation of the program? Thanks!

[flyers29]

I think it depends on what you want to do after the degree. If you want to enter the policy world and potentially dabble in academia, then I think you should be good to go. If you want to be a full-time professor, however, it's pretty difficult to crack with a public policy PhD. Not only are there not a lot of public policy schools out there (relatively speaking), but you're correct in that a lot of professors in those schools come from a poli sci or econ background.

[katalytik]

i have to agree, it depends on what you want with your career. If academia, then you may want to reconsider. But then again, do you want to teach in the top schools? Or closer to home etc? Probably need to ask yourself these things before you decide....

[mpp_applicant]

i have to agree, it depends on what you want with your career. If academia, then you may want to reconsider. But then again, do you want to teach in the top schools? Or closer to home etc? Probably need to ask yourself these things before you decide....

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't want to be a career academic. I want to pursue policy jobs in government, NGO/IOs or think tanks. But I find very appealing the option of teaching as an adjunct or taking an academic job here and there as a change of pace. I have no ambition of teaching at top schools, but I would want respectable compensation of course.

I think my biggest question is: How do employers in government and other policy institutions view Public Policy PhDs? Would you have an advantage over KSG or WWS master's holders, even if the PhD is from a lesser known program at a top public school?

Edited January 25, 2010 by mpp_applicant

[cmnt29]

Hmm, interesting. Building on what others have mentioned, I'd start with a cost-benefit analysis:

Is the 4-7 years in the school likely to lead you to a better financial position than a two year program with loans from another school

Is there an alumni network? (Which, is obviously smaller, but one of the main benefits of plunking down money for these schools)

Also, this is the tougher job to quantify, find out if phd's are preferred in your intended job area. It seems sometimes that phd's have a better ability to rise to the top of their institutions, but no always, and it depends on many factors.

Also, on the downside of phd's is that employers sometimes do not want to hire them because they believe that this person so loves issues x, that they don't want to hire them for issue a, believing that they'll leave at the first sign of being able to find position covering issue x, somewhere else. however, i don't think this necessarily applies to your situation. More like if you got a phd in chemistry and wanted to work at the world bank...and even then they might like that.

Last, what's the completion rate of the program. Many students seems to leave after 5 years with nothing to show for it, which stinks.

Either way, it seems you are off to a good start.

[mpp_applicant]

Also, this is the tougher job to quantify, find out if phd's are preferred in your intended job area. It seems sometimes that phd's have a better ability to rise to the top of their institutions, but no always, and it depends on many factors.

This is something I've had mixed results with. I found think tanks fairly easy to research just by reading people's profiles on the web and calling them up. I've concluded that a PhD is a must if you want to climb the ladder in a think tank.

But what about government, NGO's and the UN? Any suggestions on how to find out which degrees are preferred by employers? Any tips on getting a hold of the right people and how to ask these questions?

[fruit~]

Congratulations first MPP_Applicant~

I am not sure your career goals at first. If you plan to seek for an academic position in the future, I guess the ECO MA degree might help you more than an MPP degree.

Regarding UN, internal contact, your school brand, and your network matter more........

[cmnt29]

[jndaven]

Why not see where else you get in, how much money you get, and then evaluate your options? I don't think it will make or break your application for a government job. Also, do not even think about the American Econ MA. Classes are easy and you take them with a bunch of undergrads.

[threetuns]

It is interesting to see how prejudgment dominates most of the forum. Just to add a bit of real evidence for some unsupported assertions.

1)The question is about the quality of PhD Public Policy programs, the answer is it depends. Some programs are really good in quant and qualit methods, other are good in theoretical issues and others are really good in consultancy and faculty formation. Think what your interests are.

2)To those who are consistently saying that Pol Sci and Econ PhDs are more easily recruited than PP, I have to say that this is not true at all. I know quite a few PP Phd who have consistently found jobs very easily and with good salary and benefits, while there are so many PhD in Economics and Political Science in the job market that for some of them is really hard to find a position. The job market for Phd in Public Policy and Public Administration has more than 200 schools in the whole country while the number of graduates is significantly lower than Econ and PolSci.

3) While it is true that a PhD in PP would find hard to be hired by an Econ School (although now some have since the interest in policies in Econ schools requires people educated in those issues), the opposite is the same. Namely, while Public Affairs schools could appreciate the contribution of some economic faculty and recruit some of them (a restricted number of them to enhance their methods courses), generally they prefer to hire PP and Public Administration PhDs. Graduates from economics generally lack a strong formation in public affairs and public administration research, theories and tools, while, on the other hand, Polsci graduates, also lack quantitative strength (unless they come from the few pol sci schools that have a strong quant program)and generally are "too theoretical".

3)Dear jndjaven, I don´t know what special evidence you have to make such an uninformed statement. Regarding the MA Econ in American, my brother in law went to Stanford as undergraduate and then to American for a Masters in Economics and was completely satisfied, since most of its classes actually had PhD level. Now he is doing PhD at Duke and I asked him after reading what you wrote and said his AU master was definitely helpful in preparing him for doctorate and remarked the quality of professors and the lively AU´s academic and political atmosphere.

[jndaven]

3)Dear jndjaven, I don´t know what special evidence you have to make such an uninformed statement. Regarding the MA Econ in American, my brother in law went to Stanford as undergraduate and then to American for a Masters in Economics and was completely satisfied, since most of its classes actually had PhD level. Now he is doing PhD at Duke and I asked him after reading what you wrote and said his AU master was definitely helpful in preparing him for doctorate and remarked the quality of professors and the lively AU´s academic and political atmosphere.

My "special evidence" is I actually took a Masters economics class there. I also signed up for the required macro course and dropped after the first week because of how ridiculously unchallenging it was. You are guaranteed to have upper-level undergraduate economics majors in your Masters classes, as I did. The curriculum for some of these core courses use UNDERGRAD textbooks and not PhD level texts. The course I took was not even taught by a full time professor, and it was core class for the program. Sure, completing a Masters could help you get into a midlevel PhD program, but don't expect much. You'd have to go above and beyond the curriculum and take higher-level math, etc. For the record, I think Duke is a good school and congrats to your brother-in-law, but I don't recommend the American U Econ MA over ANY of the options the original poster is considering.

[stilesg57]

From what I'm reading between the lines, I think you'd be better off with an MPP from a quality institution (with a quality career center) like those you mentioned earlier.

Yes, you will likely ultimately need a PhD to reach the highest levels of government and think tanks. But here's the rub: an MPP from a top program will get you on the fast track to said position, and at a certain point your employer will basically send you to get your PhD if you show promise and proven ability. At that point, you'll be going to whatever PhD program you want, and "getting in" anywhere won't be an issue.

If you go with a no-name PhD though, you may not be able to get onto the kind of career track with the organization/agency you want. Not saying that WILL be the case, just that it very well may depending on that university's career center and alumni connections.

Good luck with your decision and hearing back from your other applications!

[mpp_applicant]

From what I'm reading between the lines, I think you'd be better off with an MPP from a quality institution (with a quality career center) like those you mentioned earlier.

Yes, you will likely ultimately need a PhD to reach the highest levels of government and think tanks. But here's the rub: an MPP from a top program will get you on the fast track to said position, and at a certain point your employer will basically send you to get your PhD if you show promise and proven ability. At that point, you'll be going to whatever PhD program you want, and "getting in" anywhere won't be an issue.

If you go with a no-name PhD though, you may not be able to get onto the kind of career track with the organization/agency you want. Not saying that WILL be the case, just that it very well may depending on that university's career center and alumni connections.

Good luck with your decision and hearing back from your other applications!

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested in what you say about employers paying for Public Policy PhDs. I have not heard of that before. Does the federal government do this? Think tanks? At Sanford, are there many MPP students who go on to Public Policy PhDs, and if so, which schools do they seem to be going to? Sorry for all the questions!

[ipsqq]

Well, you will have to make your own decision, but I completely disagree with the previous poster. If you have the opportunity to get a PhD without going into debt, you should take it. Some of the best master's program's can set you back $60,000. It would be good preparation for grad school to do a calculation of how long you would have to work to break even, even if you assumed the same salary upon graduation. While you are working on your PhD, you can do internships at all your favorite organizations, which can help you make the contacts you feel may be deficient due to the quality of the program. If you know you need a PhD to get where you want to go, why wait? Your opportunity costs only go up over time.

[jndaven]

I haven't heard of the federal government paying for Phds. They pay for some executive education programs and Masters degrees, but these are usually on a competitive basis and not guaranteed. Some federal employees will be flexible and let you work/study at the same time if someone else is paying as well. Some will "hold" your job while you go to school (leave without pay status) allowing you to maintain health insurance coverage and return to your same position afterwards. Just, you know, no pay.

[flyers29]

I haven't heard of the federal government paying for Phds. They pay for some executive education programs and Masters degrees, but these are usually on a competitive basis and not guaranteed. Some federal employees will be flexible and let you work/study at the same time if someone else is paying as well. Some will "hold" your job while you go to school (leave without pay status) allowing you to maintain health insurance coverage and return to your same position afterwards. Just, you know, no pay.

I've heard of them paying you while you go full time, though you owe them a few years in return. It's agency-dependent.

[stilesg57]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm interested in what you say about employers paying for Public Policy PhDs. I have not heard of that before. Does the federal government do this? Think tanks? At Sanford, are there many MPP students who go on to Public Policy PhDs, and if so, which schools do they seem to be going to? Sorry for all the questions!

No need to apologize!

It's not that employers/the Gov are paying for PhDs - those are covered by the school. As stated by some other posters, its more that the employer sponsors your returning to school with a guarantee of employment when you graduate and/or some salary while you're in school, things like that. The exact packages are all over the board, but there's almost always something.

As for Sanford, looking over our alumni list I'm seeing that we've got about 70 alums in academia either working or in further (PhD) study. That's out of about 800 grads. So it isn't common (though the current Dean and one of my profs last semester were both Sanford MPPs before getting PhDs). The schools they go to are all over the map of course: every major public policy program is represented. From HKS to Ford to Wagner to Goldman to smaller programs like George Mason, there are Sanfordites all over academia. It's just not terribly common compared to, say, how many are at the OMB.

Edited February 22, 2010 by stilesg57