Which Tier 2 Programs Place Well

[jsant09]

As we all know, for those of us who have chosen/are hoping for a career in academia, jobs are few and spots in the top PhD programs are limited. Getting into those tier one programs are key to increasing your chances at a job afterwards, yet many of us will have to choose to either accept admission at a tier two or borderline tier one school or wait another year to try and get into that top prestigious program. So this makes me wonder, which of those borderline tier one and tier two schools have a track record of students getting good jobs?

Of course when talking about tier one vs tier two that itself is pretty arbitrary, so I'm not intending for a discussion about that, but more so about when you get an offer from a school that is not a Duke or a Harvard, how much confidence can you have in that program helping you to a good job in academia. 

From what I've noticed, Drew seems to have a good rep. 

[menge]

I think this depends in large part what type of academic position is being aimed at; TT in RS at State School U or at a Seminary/Divinity School or other "religious" institution? For example, Drew places well in the latter category according to the data from ATS, but I suspect not quite as well in the former category. Not trying to stir up debate, but I do believe the distinction between religious studies and theological/divinity studies is important, and often ignored (or maybe I've just spent too much time reading for my upcoming theory & method comprehensive examination). 

FWIW, a faculty member at Temple I spoke with regarding interest in their program said that they have had difficulty placing recent grads in any TT jobs. A brief look at Iowa's website indicates they have also struggled. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by menge
clarification

[FlyPiper]

13 minutes ago, menge said:

I think this depends in large part what type of academic position is being aimed at; TT in RS at State School U or at a Seminary/Divinity School or other "religious" institution? For example, Drew places well in the latter category according to the data from ATS, but I suspect not quite as well in the former category. Not trying to stir up debate, but I do believe the distinction between religious studies and theological/divinity studies is important, and often ignored (or maybe I've just spent too much time reading for my upcoming theory & method comprehensive examination). 

FWIW, a faculty member at Temple I spoke with regarding interest in their program said that they have had difficulty placing recent grads in any TT jobs. A brief look at Iowa's website indicates they have also struggled. 

When talking with Iowa, they did indicate this as well. However, they did indicate that part of the issue is the ability for candidates to relocate. If you are willing to relocate and take a non TT position for a year or two, you can connect with a TT position. 

Overall, TT positions are shrinking as the academic world is in adjustment. Recent graduates at the Seminary that I attended, have taken three to five years on average to get a TT position. The individuals that did not take that long, specialized in a field in which they are the minority. 

So overall, it seems that a lot of institutions are placing less and less in a short time span. 

[menge]

This only pertains to ATS accredited institutions, but it gives you a breakdown of where the most seminary faculty are coming from: 

http://www.ats.edu/uploads/resources/publications-presentations/documents/tenure-and-other-faculty-facts-part-2.pdf

[menge]

8 minutes ago, FlyPiper said:

When talking with Iowa, they did indicate this as well. However, they did indicate that part of the issue is the ability for candidates to relocate. If you are willing to relocate and take a non TT position for a year or two, you can connect with a TT position. 

Overall, TT positions are shrinking as the academic world is in adjustment. Recent graduates at the Seminary that I attended, have taken three to five years on average to get a TT position. The individuals that did not take that long, specialized in a field in which they are the minority. 

So overall, it seems that a lot of institutions are placing less and less in a short time span. 

Fair point; I wasn't contextualizing the data as you have. 

[Marcion]

The main thing I have been warned about second tier programs is funding. Some of these schools have great schools, amazing resources, and excellent branding but at the end of the day, some of them just don't have the same means of funding as the big names do. 

[xypathos]

It would probably help, on some level anyway, when appropriate to name the school when we're considering them a second tier school.

Broadly speaking, Drew sure would probably be a T2 yet within Methodist circles, it's spoken of highly from my anecdotal experience. Duke is T1, yet some of the conservative circles I know of, their graduates are passed over. The latter doesn't mean much broadly but I think we need some greater context. Iowa is a T2 school, yet their graduates easily land TT jobs provided they're geographically flexible but this is probably true for any school really.

[sacklunch]

Given the current realities of the job market and the bleak future for higher education at the moment, I think the main points are 1) you have proper funding while doing the PhD and 2) you are prepared for the (likely, if you are not able to relocate) possibility that you will never be an academic in the traditional sense. For most of us those days are long gone. Even those of us at a T1, if we land a teaching gig, we are having to move across the country, some the world, to find stable employment (viz. TT jobs). Good luck, friend. 

[jsant09]

I wasn't really intending to distinguish between types of institutions but mostly just any tenure track position. That definitely does make a difference though. I guess I am just thinking about programs such as Claremont Graduate U, SMU, FSU, Rice, Loyola, Fordham, etc. I understand all of these to be very good programs, but have little information on how their graduates fare when applying for positions at like institutions.

 

[Marcion]

3 hours ago, jsant09 said:

I wasn't really intending to distinguish between types of institutions but mostly just any tenure track position. That definitely does make a difference though. I guess I am just thinking about programs such as Claremont Graduate U, SMU, FSU, Rice, Loyola, Fordham, etc. I understand all of these to be very good programs, but have little information on how their graduates fare when applying for positions at like institutions.

Depends the sub-field as well.

[xypathos]

5 hours ago, jsant09 said:

I wasn't really intending to distinguish between types of institutions but mostly just any tenure track position. That definitely does make a difference though. I guess I am just thinking about programs such as Claremont Graduate U, SMU, FSU, Rice, Loyola, Fordham, etc. I understand all of these to be very good programs, but have little information on how their graduates fare when applying for positions at like institutions.

 

Also, not at all schools publicly post placement records on their website because of confidentiality concerns but I know Claremont, SMU, and Fordham made detailed lists and contact info available to me when I asked for it.

[geezlaweez]

On 2/11/2017 at 0:14 PM, menge said:

This only pertains to ATS accredited institutions, but it gives you a breakdown of where the most seminary faculty are coming from: 

http://www.ats.edu/uploads/resources/publications-presentations/documents/tenure-and-other-faculty-facts-part-2.pdf

This was very helpful, thank you!

[geezlaweez]

On 2/11/2017 at 11:35 AM, jsant09 said:

As we all know, for those of us who have chosen/are hoping for a career in academia, jobs are few and spots in the top PhD programs are limited. Getting into those tier one programs are key to increasing your chances at a job afterwards, yet many of us will have to choose to either accept admission at a tier two or borderline tier one school or wait another year to try and get into that top prestigious program. So this makes me wonder, which of those borderline tier one and tier two schools have a track record of students getting good jobs?

Of course when talking about tier one vs tier two that itself is pretty arbitrary, so I'm not intending for a discussion about that, but more so about when you get an offer from a school that is not a Duke or a Harvard, how much confidence can you have in that program helping you to a good job in academia. 

From what I've noticed, Drew seems to have a good rep. 

A week ago I stupidly reread that article abt how the top 8 schools in history make up [scary statistic] of the number of the tenure tracked history professors in the country. I'm not going to one of those top 8- so what exactly is T2 when we're talking about placement anyway? The only reason why I'm doing a phd is because there literally wasn't anything else I was willing or able to do and having avoided ever getting a day job, my stipend next year will be 2x more than I've ever made (I'm in my 30s). In other words: as far as I'm concerned, I got a job with a 5 year contract doing one of the only things I was qualified to do, making the highest salary I could possibly make. But I (do desperately) want to stay in the academy/Having said that:

-try to think along the lines of creating multiple CVs to increase application options. (Mine are ethnic studies, American studies/history, Islam in America, black religion, and American religious history.)

-increase your odds for placing outside of your track by publishing in secondary fields (my plan there is theology- aiming to teach intro to religion courses or at least show that I could teach a basic theology class).

-digital humanities are not going away. Start gaining skills that might make it possible that you're hired by/have a secondary appointment in a DH lab, university library, etc. (those gigs they tend to take the work horses from public schools anyway because those are the schools that deign to teach real skills.)

-find out abt whether your school is part of Versitile PhD (or whatever it's called) which gives further opportunities to develop skills for deanships etc (esp relevant for div school if you're ordained and willing to work in student affairs- those folks get to teach sorta and publish without much support). 

-look at community college jobs. You can be the next bell hooks!

-we could all be dead in 5 years so no worries.