Better Reputation vs. Faculty of Closer Interests (Neuroscience)

[NsciApp]

I am trying to weed schools out as I go. I've been to 3 interviews for neuroscience PhD programs, and am trying to decide between two schools before going to my last 4 interviews.

Northwestern: has 2 awesome faculty who are more in my exact research area of interest, is in a bigger/fun city (Chicago), but is colder, more expensive, longer commute, and not on the "top 10" ranking for neuroscience.

WashU: has awesome faculty who aren't in my exact area of interest, is in a smaller city (St. Louis) with great cost of living, is warmer, less expensive/people-save-money-and-get-awesome-apartments, has practically no commute, and it's ranked "9" for neuroscience, next to Yale.

which school would you go for, and why?

Also consider: I almost arbitrarily picked an area of interest for my applications just to decide where to apply! I am flexible on that front, but still very excited about my declared area of interest.

Edited February 1, 2010 by NsciApp

[1f3_2kf2]

If you want to be a professor then prestige of your phd school matters a ton. If you want to work outside of academia then it doesn't matter as much.

[LifeIsGood]

I've read the reverse. If you're staying in academia, the hiring committee will want to know who you've worked with and what you worked on. If you're working outside, they'll want to see a prestigious school. I have no personal experience either way. I would personally go by fit, but if you're flexible on topic, then you can have your cake and eat it too, right?

Edited February 1, 2010 by LifeIsGood

[jacib]

I don't know what is best, but Rising Star (I think) recently posted this article about Chemistry departments, which you might find useful.

Also, it matters not just if your department is known, but if your specific adviser is known. Also, who told you there was a long commute in Evanston? I believe many graduate students live close to campus, and those who don't, it's a pretty easy commute up there during the day (at night when the purple line stops running, its more difficult).

And shouldn't you wait until you get in places, rather than just get interviews, before you start eliminating options?

Edited February 1, 2010 by jacib

[shaydlip]

I've read the reverse. If you're staying in academia, the hiring committee will want to know who you've worked with and what you worked on. If you're working outside, they'll want to see a prestigious school. I have no personal experience either way. I would personally go by fit, but if you're flexible on topic, then you can have your cake and eat it too, right?

This is correct. Outside academia, the place of degree matters more because it is what people have heard of. Within academia, you know authors/people, and so the "bigness" of your advisor matters more.

[NsciApp]

Thanks, everyone, for your advice and opinions

jacib, thanks for the great article. All the advice out there is so vauge--this is a nice, refreshing chunk of data!

haha, I didn't say there was a long commute in Evanston--just LONGER than St.Louis. Plus, for the first 2 years of the prog your classes and rotations could be at either campus...which does mean at least 20 min rides if you're in between the 2 campuses, or 40 min if you live at either end.

Also, I'm waiting until I've actually gone on the visit to weed out the schools. So far I'm accepted to the first 2 schools I visited and just waiting on WashU, which may be a couple weeks. Who knows, maybe this whole discussion will become a moot point, but I'd rather hash out my thoughts before they get muddled up in the next interview!

[dzk]

A few points for you to consider...

- Even if you have strong interests in a particular field, you should definitely consider the possibility that your interests will change. If you decide not to follow your current plans, then will you be screwed at Northwestern?

- The people you're working with are more important than the name of the school... if these guys at Northwestern are big names, then the ranking of the school isn't going to matter much.

- I don't think two labs is really enough... you could find yourself miserable in both, even if the topic really excites you. I'd suggest you find a place with at least 4-5 labs you'd consider a rotation in.

- You might not even need to make this decision... if they're so close in your mind that it comes down to factors like this, you might find another school that blows them away. Stanford (top 5) is ranked higher than WashU (top 10), but WashU is ranked higher than Yale (top 20).

- I was also at the Michigan interview, if you applied direct. PM me if you want to talk in more detail about anything.

[liszt85]

I would pick WashU. Not just for the high rank..for reasons of weather, cost of living, etc. Why would I ignore the better fit at NU? Because I do not yet know what I'll be REALLY passionate about..these are just guesses that I have now.

I'm sure your taste will change as you progress through grad school.

I myself chose a lower ranked school over NU (linguistics) and I did that, not based on fit (I perceived NU to be better of a fit) but based on the better vibes I received from the department (and adviser) I ended up attending. Also because I didn't want to live in a cold place like Chicago for 5-6 yrs. I am now working in a field that I never imagined I'd be working in and I'm thoroughly enjoying it! We have set our sight on a PNAS/Science journal publication towards the end of the year with what we've managed to do so far..so you see that there's no way I'd regret my decision! So while rationalizing, also let your intuition guide you.

[NsciApp]

I would pick WashU. Not just for the high rank..for reasons of weather, cost of living, etc. Why would I ignore the better fit at NU? Because I do not yet know what I'll be REALLY passionate about..these are just guesses that I have now.

I'm sure your taste will change as you progress through grad school.

I myself chose a lower ranked school over NU (linguistics) and I did that, not based on fit (I perceived NU to be better of a fit) but based on the better vibes I received from the department (and adviser) I ended up attending. Also because I didn't want to live in a cold place like Chicago for 5-6 yrs. I am now working in a field that I never imagined I'd be working in and I'm thoroughly enjoying it! We have set our sight on a PNAS/Science journal publication towards the end of the year with what we've managed to do so far..so you see that there's no way I'd regret my decision! So while rationalizing, also let your intuition guide you.

Yes, I think you are really onto something here. I feel shallow talking about cost-of-living, but I know from first hand experience the difference in my quality of life when I'm scraping by vs. feeling abundant. St. Louis (especially the area around WashU) feels abundant, relaxed, dare I say...happy? And the cold wind of Chicago is unlikely to make anyone happy.

I very much expect my interests to change in graduate school! I am thinking more and more that I'll be better off in a "nicer" environment--and there are already exciting faculty I'd like to rotate with, regardless of the "imperfect" research interest fit.

Congrats on your high profile publication--it sounds like your decision has panned out well!

[divinemg]

On 2/2/2010 at 9:53 PM, NsciApp said:

Yes, I think you are really onto something here. I feel shallow talking about cost-of-living, but I know from first hand experience the difference in my quality of life when I'm scraping by vs. feeling abundant. St. Louis (especially the area around WashU) feels abundant, relaxed, dare I say...happy? And the cold wind of Chicago is unlikely to make anyone happy.

I very much expect my interests to change in graduate school! I am thinking more and more that I'll be better off in a "nicer" environment--and there are already exciting faculty I'd like to rotate with, regardless of the "imperfect" research interest fit.

Congrats on your high profile publication--it sounds like your decision has panned out well!

Hi, NsciApp--

Congrats on your success!

I am in English and my input might, therefore, not be too helpful BUT I have a friend that is finishing up her undergrad at St. Louis University. She *loves* St. Louis and has a great (and affordable) apartment with garage parking (this definitely matters).

St. Louis is a big city but the close proximity of WashU and SLU lend it a small-town feel. A few areas of the city, in particular, offer great cafes, book stores, and bistros that would be ideal places to camp out while doing research or writing a paper. The city is definitely "relaxed" and "happy"...I have had the chance to visit a few times and loved it myself.

If you are looking for a place that has the pace and activity of a big city but doesn't leave you feeling lost or insignificant, St. Louis is a good fit.

As for the choice between name or faculty, I agree with the previous posters. Your thesis/dissertation advisor and committee will be much more important on your job application than the "branding" that comes with a school name. Yes, a big name is good, but if these faculty are top researchers in your field, the people evaluating your job app will be familiar with their work and more confident that yours is, and will be, of the same caliber.

Hope this helps--good luck!

[Genomic Repairman]

I agree with liszt, pick the school that seems to jive best with you rather than worrying if they are number 7 or 8 on the list. Where you go to school makes a difference but you make your own reputation through your work.

[djg05010]

I'm in a similar situation, except I'm between Northwestern neuroscience and Columbia neuroscience.

Both have a number of faculty that I would be thrilled to work with (although Northwestern has the edge on that one due to the work of one person in particular). For me the choice is again higher ranking vs. (moderately) lower ranking, NYC vs. Chicago (I've lived in the northeast my whole life, I frequent NYC, and honestly on my couple of trips to Chicago I think I would prefer to live in Chicago over NYC), slightly more interesting faculty vs. slightly less. Northwestern has a better curriculum than Columbia (people at Columbia admit their coursework is weak), but again the question is simple: which place is going to give me the best chance to get the post-doc I want / the professorship I want

The professors I'm interested in are doing about the same caliber of work (similar number of journal publications in things like Nature, Science, J. Neuroscience, etc.). Rather tempted to just flip a coin lol.

good luck on your decision though (and sorry for not having any good input, just figured I'd commiserate with you lol)

p.s. which weekend were you at Northwestern? We probably overlapped

[cogneuroforfun]

Honestly, I would go with WashU. If you were more set on your interests, I would say pick Northwestern for sure. But if you are more flexible, then all the reasons you listed in favor of WashU would push me to accept the author there.

[rogue]

Rather tempted to just flip a coin lol.

Actually, I do that a lot. But I don't necessarily go by what the coin says--I base my decision on my reaction to the coin toss. Silly, perhaps, but often useful as a quick and dirty way to tap into my gut feeling about something. I'm debating doing that with schools, too.

[chimerical]

Actually, I do that a lot. But I don't necessarily go by what the coin says--I base my decision on my reaction to the coin toss. Silly, perhaps, but often useful as a quick and dirty way to tap into my gut feeling about something. I'm debating doing that with schools, too.

Oh wow, that's a really awesome suggestion! I've found that it can be hard to separate out my instincts from all the rationalizing that goes on in my head. Just might give this a try.

[rising_star]

I would go with where you think you will be the happiest, which sounds like WashU. Your lists didn't include anything about how you got along with the other students or potential PIs, two things I would definitely factor in. Happiness while in graduate school is everything since it can be hard to find.

To whoever said that the brand-name of the school matters more outside the academy, you're probably right. Within the academy, who you worked with and the strength of the subfield/subdiscipline/lab at that school seem to matter more than just the name of the university. At least, that's been my experience...

P.S. jacib, there's no way I posted an article about chemistry departments. Not sure who did either. I imagine it's the 1500 posts that makes people think of me.

[dzk]

I'm in a similar situation, except I'm between Northwestern neuroscience and Columbia neuroscience.

Go to Northwestern. It's obviously a way better choice for you. How well it fits you more than makes up for the difference in rankings, and it's your advisor that matters most anyway.