Importance of Clinical Psychology PhD ranking for internship placement/career success? Should I try again next year for fully-funded PhD programs?

[beherenow]

I applied to 6 Clinical Psych PhD programs this year (my first year doing so, and I was pretty rushed/lost throughout most of the process!), got interviews at 2, and have been accepted to both. Both are ranked ~150 in the US News & World Report for Clinical Psych PhD programs. I'm thrilled to have been accepted this cycle as I know how impossibly competitive these programs are, but a part of me is wondering if it's worth it to attend a lower ranked school with a hefty tuition fee, versus strengthen my application this year and try again for better, fully-funded programs for Fall 2018 instead.  

I think I have competitive stats besides my GPA (was a science major in college and physics/chem killed me, ending up with a 3.3 cumulative gpa. If you count just my psych classes, which I minored in, it's more like 3.8), and GRE (got 80th percentile for both verbal/quant). I have 3 years of research experience, including 2 years as a full-time RA at a prestigious university and 1 year undergrad. I have 7 publications/poster presentations, and am first author on 1 paper and 1 poster. I also recently received my master's, which I did well in, and have at least 2 excellent LORs. Maybe I'm overestimating my stats though-- can excellent research experience and a master's overshadow a less than average undergrad GPA? 

So I have a few questions. What are the actual, real-world implications of attending a lower ranked, unfunded PhD program, if any? Is it harder to get an internship/externship(s)? What about career prospects? I'm planning on going into neuropsych, which has more growth than other clinical psych fields, but also more competition. Is it too risky to decide not to attend one of these programs this year and try again next year? Is it possible to defer programs (assuming this depends on school, but wondering if this is even possible)?! It would be ideal to attend a fully-funded program, obviously, but am I crazy for trying to pursue that uncertainty for another year, when I could already be attending another program??

I'm also going to be 26 in a couple months, so definitely not getting any younger. I know this shouldn't be a big factor in my decision making process but I want to start a family eventually, and as a woman doing so while still in grad school seems kind of insane!

Thanks in advance. Any input is appreciated! 

Edited March 13, 2017 by beherenow

[dormcat]

I'm not clinical so I won't touch the specific implications for that area of psych, but I have been told/seen here and elsewhere dozens of times a warning to NOT attend grad school at the doctorate level unless you're fully funded. You are not crazy for waiting one year (I personally took 3 years off school) when the other option is paying out the wazoo for 5-7 years of school.

And, in general, going to a better ranked school does help in job placement after you finish. There wouldn't be rankings if the program didn't have an impact on your career prospects. In many ways grad school success is what you make it, and it can be beneficial to go to a lower ranked school with a way better PI than to go to a top 5 and be miserable. However, in your case, you seem like a strong applicant and you should be able to get into a higher ranked program.

I'm not sure what would've held you back, I doubt it was all the undergrad GPA. Did you confirm all your POIs were taking students? Did you exceed the average GRE for the previous cohorts? 6 is a very low number of applications, I applied to 12 non-clinical, my clinical friends applied to 15+, and my boss thought I should apply to more than 20. Did the schools you applied to range in rank? I know clinical is competitive but you really do seem to have a strong record. You can only be a stronger applicant by taking a year or more to try to bump up your GRE scores, continuing to work in a lab (maybe at a higher level than RA like lab manager/coordinator or data manager), and possibly publishing anything you didn't finish during your masters.

Again though, it's largely advised not to pay for a PhD because while you take classes a PhD is a job and you shouldn't be paying your boss to work for them. But I get why people wouldn't want to go through the application process more than once. Ultimately, it's your choice, and you have to decide when you've reach a point where you're happy! Good luck!

Edited March 13, 2017 by dormcat

[Plasticity]

Unfunded = waaaaaay too little return on investment, so run.

 

As for rankings...Rankings don't matter unless it means you will be struggling to get pubs and clinical/assessment hours. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Plasticity

[metalpsychperson]

1 hour ago, dormcat said:

my clinical friends applied to 15+, and my boss thought I should apply to more than 20

This seems really excessive. Nearly all clinical programs require an interview, and you can generally only attend 3-5 interviews max depending on the scheduling. The usual recommendation for clinical programs is to apply for 8-15, and maybe fewer if you're going for PsyD programs.

[dormcat]

3 hours ago, metalpsychperson said:

This seems really excessive. Nearly all clinical programs require an interview, and you can generally only attend 3-5 interviews max depending on the scheduling. The usual recommendation for clinical programs is to apply for 8-15, and maybe fewer if you're going for PsyD programs.

I suppose...6 is still fewer than 8 and much fewer than 15 though. My supervisor is intense so yes, 20 is excessive for most but not unheard of if you're aiming at a bunch of top programs with some mid and lower ranked ones that are particularly alluring. Even if it's unrealistic one could attend more than 3-5 interviews, it's not guaranteed 3-5 interviews per 8-15 applications. Really I think the best rule is apply to as many as you can afford and go to as many interviews as you can. You never know who you're competing with in a given cycle so the higher your chances the better. 

[8BitJourney]

Well a bit of perspective. The counseling program I applied to regularly sends their students to highly competitive clinical internships where they learn alongside clinical students (I don't remember any students I spoke with doing any less than 2 hospital/VA internships). So while it wouldn't 'rank' with clinical programs its very rigorous. If we're talking about clinical programs Ivy league (Harvard or Yale) vs Antioch then yeah 'ranking' matters but its more a measure of quality and quantity of research productivity (but honestly Ivy league comes with a whole 'nother set of complications). If you're trying to decide between 2 R1 juggernauts like UNC Chapel Hill and UCLA for clinical psych relying on rankings are pretty meaningless.

Funded vs Unfunded is an entirely different issue. I refused to apply to unfunded and needed 2 cycles to get an acceptance but I'm so happy I did so. But I have hang ups about money and debt. However, not only are my options better but I was able to network A LOT over the past year which I can see helping with the internship and postdoc process. Working for another year in a lab and networking or going the master's route to mask your uGPA would be my advice.

[beherenow]

On 3/13/2017 at 3:35 PM, dormcat said:

I'm not sure what would've held you back, I doubt it was all the undergrad GPA. Did you confirm all your POIs were taking students? Did you exceed the average GRE for the previous cohorts? 6 is a very low number of applications, I applied to 12 non-clinical, my clinical friends applied to 15+, and my boss thought I should apply to more than 20. Did the schools you applied to range in rank? I know clinical is competitive but you really do seem to have a strong record. You can only be a stronger applicant by taking a year or more to try to bump up your GRE scores, continuing to work in a lab (maybe at a higher level than RA like lab manager/coordinator or data manager), and possibly publishing anything you didn't finish during your masters.

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!

And yeah, dormcat, I made sure the POIs I mentioned in my application were taking students, and I emailed them to express my interest in their research (although prob too late). My GRE was ~average for the schools I applied to (80th percentile), which I know must have contributed to not getting interviews. And yes I totally agree I should have applied to more schools, like I said the application process was rushed this year and I didn't have the chance to look into more schools unfortunately. But looking at how fully-funded programs admit 1-3% of applicants, I'm wondering if there's an unofficial GPA cutoff to filter applicants before even looking at the rest of their application? I really want to know what was holding me back this year and if I even have a chance next year. I'd love to reach out the schools that didn't send interview invites and find out from them directly as well- do people ever have success with this? 

Also I should have mentioned both of these programs are partially funded, ie you receive a stipend through an RAship and/or TAship but tuition isn't covered. Does this make any difference or still not worth it? 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by beherenow

[Psychoplasmics]

23 hours ago, metalpsychperson said:

This seems really excessive. Nearly all clinical programs require an interview, and you can generally only attend 3-5 interviews max depending on the scheduling. The usual recommendation for clinical programs is to apply for 8-15, and maybe fewer if you're going for PsyD programs.

This is really going to come down to personal preference and circumstance. I had 11 interviews scheduled this cycle and was prepared to attend all but two because of conflicting dates. I only stopped attending interviews when I received an offer from my top choice. This was my third cycle and I had decided it would be my last. I thought it was important to cast as wide a net as I could to ensure a spot in a program in which I felt I could prosper. For me, that meant 16 applications. I never dreamed I would get so many invites, but I was ready to capitalize on the opportunity. In previous cycles I got offers from programs that were not fully funded or were not yet APA-accredited. I decided I wanted to give myself every advantage over the long term so I declined those offers.

[dormcat]

1 hour ago, beherenow said:

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!

And yeah, dormcat, I made sure the POIs I mentioned in my application were taking students, and I emailed them to express my interest in their research (although prob too late). My GRE was ~average for the schools I applied to (80th percentile), which I know must have contributed to not getting interviews. And yes I totally agree I should have applied to more schools, like I said the application process was rushed this year and I didn't have the chance to look into more schools unfortunately. But looking at how fully-funded programs admit 1-3% of applicants, I'm wondering if there's an unofficial GPA cutoff to filter applicants before even looking at the rest of their application? I really want to know what was holding me back this year and if I even have a chance next year. I'd love to reach out the schools that didn't send interview invites and find out from them directly as well- do people ever have success with this? 

Also I should have mentioned both of these programs are partially funded, ie you receive a stipend through an RAship and/or TAship but tuition isn't covered. Does this make any difference or still not worth it? 

 

Fully funded is tougher to get into but really you shouldn't consider a program that isn't fully funded, you'll end up paying so much (especially since people usually move out of state for grad school) with no guarantee of a job. And yes, cut offs exist but 3.3 isn't so low that you'd be rejected automatically from a higher ranking school. There have been some posts about people getting in with those GPAs, google around to see if you can find some essays about getting into a PhD program with a low undergraduate GPA. I've seen advice for and stories about folks with like 2.8 GPA getting into grad school. 

[beherenow]

18 hours ago, dormcat said:

Fully funded is tougher to get into but really you shouldn't consider a program that isn't fully funded, you'll end up paying so much (especially since people usually move out of state for grad school) with no guarantee of a job. And yes, cut offs exist but 3.3 isn't so low that you'd be rejected automatically from a higher ranking school. There have been some posts about people getting in with those GPAs, google around to see if you can find some essays about getting into a PhD program with a low undergraduate GPA. I've seen advice for and stories about folks with like 2.8 GPA getting into grad school. 

This is so comforting to know! Thanks!

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by beherenow

[beherenow]

What about if I have external financial support that will allow me to graduate with no debt? Is it more about the principle of only attending fully funded programs, or is post-graduation debt the reason people stay away? I'm just curious because now there so, so many clinical programs that don't cover all (or any) tuition, and many people do fine. Most of these programs emphasize both clinical training and research pretty equally (in contrast to most fully-funded programs, which have a heavy research emphasis), and in this light it makes sense to me that there would be tuition since you're only spending up to half of your time conducting research. But perhaps I'm completely off with this?

Edited March 15, 2017 by beherenow

[wtfook]

If these are APA accredited schools, then you can look at their outcomes tables to decide whether they are worth it for you. Focus on the internship match rate and how many of their people are matching at APA accredited internships. Those numbers usually indicate what kind of training people are getting and how competitive their students area among other applicants. It's also helpful if the school tells you the kind of places their students are getting matched at. If they're mainly getting matched at college counseling centers but you want to work in a hospital, then it may not be the program for you. If the program isn't APA accredited, I'd recommend not going there. Many internship sites require that you be at an APA accredited school in order to apply and why limit yourself?

[metalpsychperson]

2 hours ago, beherenow said:

What about if I have external financial support that will allow me to graduate with no debt? Is it more about the principle of only attending fully funded programs, or is post-graduation debt the reason people stay away? I'm just curious because now there so, so many clinical programs that don't cover all (or any) tuition, and many people do fine. Most of these programs emphasize both clinical training and research pretty equally (in contrast to most fully-funded programs, which have a heavy research emphasis), and in this light it makes sense to me that there would be tuition since you're only spending up to half of your time conducting research. But perhaps I'm completely off with this?

I also have an acceptance from a program which is not fully funded, which I plan to attend if I am not accepted off a waitlist because I also have external financial support which will allow me to graduate without any debt. If I had to take on any debt I would probably decline. Some people online have judged me for this decision, but I've found that the money I would save by waiting a year and getting into a fully funded program would not be much more than the amount of money I would gain by getting into the field a year earlier. My decision was also partially based on the fact that I'd much rather attend a PsyD program than a PhD program, so my fully funded options are very limited. Since you're looking at PhD programs, it would make more sense for you to try again than it would for me.

I think it really depends on three things (1) the reputation and stats of the program (not necessarily ranking), (2) how much more it will cost you than a fully funded program, and (3) your personal financial situation. Would you be fine messaging me the name of the programs in question? It's really hard to say whether they're worth attending without knowing more about them. Also, do you think you might want to work in academia, or are you strictly interested in clinical work? Program reputation seems to be much more important in academia/research than in clinical work.

You sound like a really competitive applicant, by the way. I don't think programs care so much about undergrad GPA so long as your grad GPA is strong, and all of your other stats seem top-notch. If you do decide to try another year, I think you have a really good chance of getting into a fully funded program so long as you are strategic when choosing where to apply to, write good personal statements, and do well in interviews.

Edited March 15, 2017 by metalpsychperson

[LLsApps]

On 3/14/2017 at 6:19 PM, beherenow said:

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone!

And yeah, dormcat, I made sure the POIs I mentioned in my application were taking students, and I emailed them to express my interest in their research (although prob too late). My GRE was ~average for the schools I applied to (80th percentile), which I know must have contributed to not getting interviews. And yes I totally agree I should have applied to more schools, like I said the application process was rushed this year and I didn't have the chance to look into more schools unfortunately. But looking at how fully-funded programs admit 1-3% of applicants, I'm wondering if there's an unofficial GPA cutoff to filter applicants before even looking at the rest of their application? I really want to know what was holding me back this year and if I even have a chance next year. I'd love to reach out the schools that didn't send interview invites and find out from them directly as well- do people ever have success with this? 

Also I should have mentioned both of these programs are partially funded, ie you receive a stipend through an RAship and/or TAship but tuition isn't covered. Does this make any difference or still not worth it? 

 

It's very, very doubtful that 80th percentile scores contributed in any way to not getting interviews. GRE scores are mainly a hoop to jump through - once you're past the cut-off for a program, they're really not considered much anymore, and 80th percentile is definitely past that cut-off for most if not all programs. I'm saying this as someone who agonized over whether I should retake the GRE because one of my subscores was below the 75th percentile (but the others and my subject score were all signficantly higher) - if you do reapply, do not focus your efforts on retaking the GRE. I think a lot of people tend to overestimate its importance in admissions decisions. My PI at a lab I worked at was considered a GRE stickler in that he gave it more weight than most, and he told me that my scores were great and it wasn't worth my time to retake them. This round, I received 9 interviews, after only getting 1 each of the previous rounds, and I'm so glad I didn't waste my time on retaking that test.

As someone who has applied 3 times and now is finally done (currently deciding between offers that I'm very happy with), I would advise you to reapply next year - less because of the ranking issue, and more because of the funding. Receiving multiple acceptances the first time around after only applying to 6 schools indicates you'd probably be a competitive applicant in future cycles. Your overall GPA is a little low, but having a higher masters GPA should help to offset that. Next year, I would take the time to thoroughly research potential mentors, and apply to at least 12-15 fully funded programs that have a decent range of competitiveness (i.e. don't just apply to the top 15 programs, which it doesn't sound like you would do).

As far as the family issue goes, that's certainly understandable, but I know a good number of women who started their families in graduate school and been quite successful. There's no perfect time to have a baby, and I don't want to minimize the difficulties of working around such a major life transition, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to take on debt for a clinical PhD. 

[beherenow]

On 3/15/2017 at 3:50 PM, LLsApps said:

It's very, very doubtful that 80th percentile scores contributed in any way to not getting interviews. GRE scores are mainly a hoop to jump through - once you're past the cut-off for a program, they're really not considered much anymore, and 80th percentile is definitely past that cut-off for most if not all programs. I'm saying this as someone who agonized over whether I should retake the GRE because one of my subscores was below the 75th percentile (but the others and my subject score were all signficantly higher) - if you do reapply, do not focus your efforts on retaking the GRE. I think a lot of people tend to overestimate its importance in admissions decisions. My PI at a lab I worked at was considered a GRE stickler in that he gave it more weight than most, and he told me that my scores were great and it wasn't worth my time to retake them. This round, I received 9 interviews, after only getting 1 each of the previous rounds, and I'm so glad I didn't waste my time on retaking that test.

As someone who has applied 3 times and now is finally done (currently deciding between offers that I'm very happy with), I would advise you to reapply next year - less because of the ranking issue, and more because of the funding. Receiving multiple acceptances the first time around after only applying to 6 schools indicates you'd probably be a competitive applicant in future cycles. Your overall GPA is a little low, but having a higher masters GPA should help to offset that. Next year, I would take the time to thoroughly research potential mentors, and apply to at least 12-15 fully funded programs that have a decent range of competitiveness (i.e. don't just apply to the top 15 programs, which it doesn't sound like you would do).

As far as the family issue goes, that's certainly understandable, but I know a good number of women who started their families in graduate school and been quite successful. There's no perfect time to have a baby, and I don't want to minimize the difficulties of working around such a major life transition, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to take on debt for a clinical PhD. 

Congrats on your offers, that's awesome!! And major props to you for going through this process three times, I'm dreading the thought of having to do this a second time. Interesting to hear about the GRE, I assumed since my uGPA was pretty low that my master's AND GRE needed to both be stellar. What did you do to increase your competitiveness, if you're comfortable sharing? I feel like I need to go above and beyond getting another research position (even if it's at a higher/managerial level), contacting potential research mentors, and applying to more schools. 

I'm considering taking psych classes through a university extension or something, since I only minored in psych (major was neuroscience, and master's was neuroimaging), but not sure if this will make a difference. 

And that's great to hear that it's been done successfully! Agreed, there's definitely no perfect time, I just don't want to it negatively impact my grad timeline, etc. Also, just to clarify, I won't be taking on debt if I go to either school. It's more about the fact that it's a lot of money when I could be getting a potentially better education/training elsewhere for free, and if schools ranked in the 100's impact one's competitiveness for internships/fellowships/jobs significantly.