American Student Applying for UK PhD--Employability

[MendicantScholar]

I am an American grad student finishing up an M.Litt in Mediaeval History at the University of St. Andrews, and am planning on applying to go on into a PhD at the same institution. However, I have been warned by several professors back home in the US that if I get my PhD in the UK then I will basically not get employed at a US insitution, since apparently UK PhDs don't seem to carry a lot of weight in terms of 'employability' in the US. No one has properly explained to me why this is exactly, and I was just wondering if anyone else is in the same situation, or if they have any helpful information on the subject. I understand that the processes and systems of the two PhDs are different, but don't understand why one PhD should count less than another. I am in a bit of a quandary over it at the moment, as I absolutely love St. Andrews and the university, and the Mediaeval History Department here is among the top medieval programmes, and I would much rather get my PhD here in three years rather than spend 6-7 years somewhere in the US. Anyone have any insights? Thanks.

[Venetia]

I've heard the same thing about UK PhDs vs. American PhDs. I actually did my undergraduate degree at St. Andrews (is it not the most amazing place? And the Medieval History department is fabulous), and an MPhil in Ireland. When I was considering PhDs, I was also told that American universities would prefer American PhDs. I never heard anything official, it was all 'somebody told me...' kind of stuff, but I did have a few thoughts on why that might be.

The way the degrees are structured is completely different- American universities have taught courses for the first couple of years at least, and there is an emphasis on learning how to teach (at least, at the universities I've been looking at) before they even think about thesis topics. In contrast, UK PhD students enter their degrees with at least some idea of what they will do their thesis on, there are very few classes, and while students do teach there is little explanation on how to do it. And in St. Andrews at least graduate students didn't seem to be planning classes or anything, just teaching tutorials and marking essays.

So if you were going to hire someone right out of their PhD, who would you choose? I'd say the one with better teaching experience. Research is all very well (yes it is very important, I don't want to start an argument about whether teaching or research is more valuable), but you would want someone who you would trust to teach undergraduates and maintain the teaching standards of the university.

Also, I'm sure that Americans (like Brits!) think that their system is the best one. That's just normal national bias!

Anyway, please note that there are no references to official information in this post; this is all just my musings, feel free to debunk them!

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Damn (pardon my Middle English)

I was thinking of applying to a couple of UK programs (if I could get funding) as well as the US programs next year.

If Universities in the States aren't hiring UK PhDs, I won't - after all, with more and more stringent UK work and immigration laws, there isn't a chance in hell I'll get a job THERE post graduation. Humph. (Although I suppose I understand US Universities. With such a bad job market anyway, you want someone with the best teaching experience straight out of grad school...)

[Medievalmaniac]

My professor got her MLitt and PhD at Trinity Dublin in medieval literature (heLLOOOO! TRINITY DUBLIN! For MEDIEVAL LITERATURE!)

She is an assistant professor at a mid level public university in America. She had a helluva time getting the post because of her UK degree.

At issue was the fact that the UK degree takes less time to complete than does the American (approx. 3-4 years instead of 5-7). So American universities, in their infinite wisdom, assume the UK contingency is less well-prepared to teach b/c they have taken fewer courses and don't usually teach during the degree program.

For those American students interested in teaching in the UK, if you get your PhD there, YES, you are employable. Her professor wondered why on EARTH she would go to teach anywhere other than the UK with a UK degree, and thought she should stay on and take a lectureship.

If you desperately want UK experience, but plan on trying to become a professor in America, I highly recommend either doing the MLitt abroad and then doing the PhD in the states, or alternately doing a post doc fellowship abroad or summer program abroad from a US based doctoral program. You'll end up more marketable in the States with a U.S. degree.

Which is Just Dumb. Because everyone knows the Middle Ages didn't happen here! lol You'd think US schools would snap up folks who have studied at the universities actually founded in the time period they are specializing in...

Academia is weird...!

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

My professor got her MLitt and PhD at Trinity Dublin in medieval literature (heLLOOOO! TRINITY DUBLIN! For MEDIEVAL LITERATURE!)

She is an assistant professor at a mid level public university in America. She had a helluva time getting the post because of her UK degree.

At issue was the fact that the UK degree takes less time to complete than does the American (approx. 3-4 years instead of 5-7). So American universities, in their infinite wisdom, assume the UK contingency is less well-prepared to teach b/c they have taken fewer courses and don't usually teach during the degree program.

For those American students interested in teaching in the UK, if you get your PhD there, YES, you are employable. Her professor wondered why on EARTH she would go to teach anywhere other than the UK with a UK degree, and thought she should stay on and take a lectureship.

If you desperately want UK experience, but plan on trying to become a professor in America, I highly recommend either doing the MLitt abroad and then doing the PhD in the states, or alternately doing a post doc fellowship abroad or summer program abroad from a US based doctoral program. You'll end up more marketable in the States with a U.S. degree.

Which is Just Dumb. Because everyone knows the Middle Ages didn't happen here! lol You'd think US schools would snap up folks who have studied at the universities actually founded in the time period they are specializing in...

Academia is weird...!

Oh well, I'll apply to Oxford etc. for post-doc (yummy oxford. I'm such a snob. *sigh*)

[a fragrant plant]

You can always apply to Post-doc in the US after you finish your degree here in the UK. If you think St Andrews is a perfect school for you there is no reason why you should give it up because of the academic myth. In the end of the day it's the quality of your research that gets you the job.

[fluttering]

My professor got her MLitt and PhD at Trinity Dublin in medieval literature (heLLOOOO! TRINITY DUBLIN! For MEDIEVAL LITERATURE!)

She is an assistant professor at a mid level public university in America. She had a helluva time getting the post because of her UK degree.

Trinity is not in the UK, it's in Ireland.

I suspect one reason why UK PhDs (and PhDs from other countries with a similar degree structure) are viewed less favourably is that they are shorter, and therefore the candidates have less research experience, fewer publications, etc.

[Iapyx]

Sorry for the delayed response... I am an American at an American University, but would love to Study classics in the UK and then work there. Is the market for humanities as bad in the UK as the US? Would being an American put me at a significant disadvantage for UK professor jobs. If it makes any difference, I am looking at Scottish unis (Edinburgh and St Andrews). In short, can I realistically expect to find employment after graduation in the UK, either as a professor(ideally) or perhaps some other university job (administration etc).

Thanks!

Edit: Also, I am looking at the requirements a bit more and am curious if they are as relaxed as they seem. It seems for example that no GRE is required. Furthermore, it seems that fluency in Latin/Greek is not required(some masters offer intro courses) and no French/German is required. I know some Latin, but my interest is largely historical in translation, so this seems to good to be true. (I only looked at the St Andrews site)

Edited April 18, 2011 by Iapyx

[rgarnham]

The time factor is also an important one. Say you do a PhD in the UK and then do three years of post-doc work, are you really going to be in a worse position that if you spent 6 years doing an American PhD?

[Batavi]

The time factor is also an important one. Say you do a PhD in the UK and then do three years of post-doc work, are you really going to be in a worse position that if you spent 6 years doing an American PhD?

I agree with this. I just got accepted to Oxford MPhil Ancient History and intend to stay there right through till the end of my doctoral degree.

After that, I'm well aware that I will have to take some sort of an instructor position before applying to a tenured track position - which is perfectly fine with me.

But whether you do 3 years PhD programme and then work 3 years full time or do 6 years with a balance between the two - you will be judged on the same things for positions you apply to.

Your degree (where you earned it) will get your application looked at, then a balance between top research and publications, your ability to teach, and perhaps your ability to acquire funding and network knowledge.

So, at the end of the day, its all about how you sell yourself to possible employers.

[drg]

As an American who has a British PhD and 10 years of teaching experience I can tell you that not having academic transcripts has cost me a lot of good jobs. British PhD are earned through research only. However, to teach in the USA, especially at the graduate level, say, in psychology , the college will likely not hire you if they can't see what specific psychology courses you have taken at the graduate level. Also, many of the state accrediation agencies require transcripts to be in an employee's file upon inspection.

[adc]

Hi, I just left UK, the market is in as bad a shape as US, that is in any field right now. I was working with a university and have studied both in the US and UK. Britain is going through very hard times and it will take time for the economy to recover, so even if you get a job there is hardly anyone who maybe willing to sponsor you, hence you will not be allowed to stay there legally. Please check online UK border agency for further info, also in UK, many universities are cutting costs, down sizing, so unless you have something more than a PHD the probability of getting a teaching job is very small, they may consider you for an associate lecturer job, but they are not permanant and the university does not sponsor those jobs. Please invest yr time, money and energy wisely... my suggestion....you could study in the US and go for an exchange programs to UK/Scotland, Ireland) believe me the education is better in the US (in many universities in the UK professors are doing additional jobs and master students or their friends end up taking some of their classes, who are often not qualified to teach and do not know the subject well enough)

Best wishes... hope you did not mind my forthright answer..

Sorry for the delayed response... I am an American at an American University, but would love to Study classics in the UK and then work there. Is the market for humanities as bad in the UK as the US? Would being an American put me at a significant disadvantage for UK professor jobs. If it makes any difference, I am looking at Scottish unis (Edinburgh and St Andrews). In short, can I realistically expect to find employment after graduation in the UK, either as a professor(ideally) or perhaps some other university job (administration etc).

Thanks!

Edit: Also, I am looking at the requirements a bit more and am curious if they are as relaxed as they seem. It seems for example that no GRE is required. Furthermore, it seems that fluency in Latin/Greek is not required(some masters offer intro courses) and no French/German is required. I know some Latin, but my interest is largely historical in translation, so this seems to good to be true. (I only looked at the St Andrews site)