UC forecast

[unclelurker]

For those considering the California UC system for grad school, are currently enrolled or alums - how is it going? Why will you accept OR decline the offer (and what kind of funding is being tossed around?)

Are the UCs dying due to the economy or making difficult but appropriate cuts? And how does that impact a prospective student choosing to attend - from funding, yrs to completion, resources, flight of faculty, job prospects...

Anyone want to encourage heart palpitations

[Leafytea]

I'm at a MA program within the UC system right now. From what I gather, it kind of depends on which department at which school you're talking about. Some are better insulated than others, due to different funding sources. As a whole, I feel like grad students who enter with packages are a bit insulated from the budget crisis. Only a small portion of grad students got involved in the protests against budget cuts in the fall--and that also seemed to depend on department.

[prolixity]

For those considering the California UC system for grad school, are currently enrolled or alums - how is it going? Why will you accept OR decline the offer (and what kind of funding is being tossed around?)

Are the UCs dying due to the economy or making difficult but appropriate cuts? And how does that impact a prospective student choosing to attend - from funding, yrs to completion, resources, flight of faculty, job prospects...

Anyone want to encourage heart palpitations

I was accepted to two UC's. They both offered mid-20's as stipend. Wisconsin offered lower twenties.

2 Private schools are offering about $30K for the same degree.. but of course, are in more expensive cities.

[sciencegal]

I am currently enrolled in a math/science PhD program at UC Berkeley. Our department is unchanged as far as offering the same packages, GSR, and GSI positions to our students. It's the other "little" things that have gotten cut. Less events/food for prospective student events, we can't pay for prospective students to visit anymore, etc. Overall, the impacts to students have not been as drastic as anticipated or played up. That's not to diminish the issues, but we are still doing faculty searches and going forward with retention cases so we don't lose top talent. Our departmental faculty aren't considering leaving at this time.

To respond to prolixity, UC offers are almost never as competitive as those coming from Privates. Even before the budget crisis our department simply couldn't offer as much as a private. They have bigger pockets and always will. The students that select our program, even with a smaller package, are drawn to the other wonderful things we have to offer (top ranked program, cutting-edge faculty, etc)!

If you can visit, that's a great thing to do. When I visited Berkeley in January the year I applied (before admissions decisions), I knew it was a perfect fit for me and I didn't even wait for all of my other offers once I got a yes from Berkeley.

I think years to completion is probably unchanged for grad students. It might change for undergrads with some of their course sections being eliminated. For my department I know I can say that my job prospects are unchanged as well. The reputation of our program is still incredibly strong, and the faculty still as famous as ever. People keep trying to recruit me!! All the time!!

Good luck in your decision making!

Edited February 10, 2010 by sciencegal

[instantcoffee]

For those considering the California UC system for grad school, are currently enrolled or alums - how is it going? Why will you accept OR decline the offer (and what kind of funding is being tossed around?)

Are the UCs dying due to the economy or making difficult but appropriate cuts? And how does that impact a prospective student choosing to attend - from funding, yrs to completion, resources, flight of faculty, job prospects...

Anyone want to encourage heart palpitations

The UC financial situation is pretty dire, it certainly varies depending on the department (generally the sciences are better off than the humanities), but I would definitely urge you to speak very candidly with your department about finances before accepting any offer. You deserve to know what is really going on. Even if funds have been committed to you, you are still at risk if the money runs out. I'm a current Berkeley grad student, and several students in my department have NOT BEEN PAID their stipends for this semester (should have been paid over a month ago) because our department is simply out of money and scrambling to figure out a way to pay students.

[unclelurker]

The UC financial situation is pretty dire, it certainly varies depending on the department (generally the sciences are better off than the humanities), but I would definitely urge you to speak very candidly with your department about finances before accepting any offer. You deserve to know what is really going on. Even if funds have been committed to you, you are still at risk if the money runs out. I'm a current Berkeley grad student, and several students in my department have NOT BEEN PAID their stipends for this semester (should have been paid over a month ago) because our department is simply out of money and scrambling to figure out a way to pay students.

Any prospective graduate student should be asking many questions of everyone they can get a hold of - more so in dire financial straits. Sure there are less cookies to go around for hungry grads, but is that because the adjunct that baked (pure hope in a cake) is furloughed and lost two sections? And for those undergraduate sections being eliminated, time to completion just went up for them, and thus for you too. Like teaching doesn't take time, time away from research and writing. Graduate courses are rarely top priority or over-enrolled, and get cut without mercy.

Short of scratching for every crumb and small grant, and learning the limited hours for underfunded departmental facilities, I think I am trying to navigate around the powerful sense of 'we can achieve' in the face of crumbling resources. I don't wish to undermine the herculean efforts to budget the CA educational system, but sometimes the daily affirmations seem defensive to a visitor. How do I get past that in an interview without being rude or gossipy about budget problems? I am very concerned about accepting admittance to UC when there are public issues in multiple departments, and many more that I don't know of and probably won't until fifth year. Where is reality on what is going on with the UCs? Is everyone thinking that this is such a great place, and it is really not that bad, and it can only get better? We all want that dream. And I wanted a house with an ARM, but we all know where that ended. And in that case, I hope that you rent.

I would also encourage folks to talk to staff, not just the grad students and adjuncts they encounter. There have been some issues with unions recently for UC Berkeley, and departments combining soft money can make merit raises never happen. For ten years.

The good things are pretty self evident for each subfield, especially for the work I do. But the bad cuts across all departments, all of California. Am I able to choose this mixed blessing with a legacy based upon such little knowledge? I am particularly concerned about Berkeley at the moment, and considering the financial future of the school and my research. Feel free to pm with your stories if not appropriate to this thread.

Personally, I like the libraries and archives, and professors/researchers. Not having been a student at Berkeley there are other things good for research but those were why I applied.

*edit fixed atrocious misspellings

Edited February 11, 2010 by unclelurker

[unclelurker]

The UC financial situation is pretty dire, it certainly varies depending on the department (generally the sciences are better off than the humanities), but I would definitely urge you to speak very candidly with your department about finances before accepting any offer. You deserve to know what is really going on. Even if funds have been committed to you, you are still at risk if the money runs out. I'm a current Berkeley grad student, and several students in my department have NOT BEEN PAID their stipends for this semester (should have been paid over a month ago) because our department is simply out of money and scrambling to figure out a way to pay students.

if you feel comfortable naming the department/office/lab within your UC that would be awesome for anyone wishing they had that data.

How is the situation affecting application for internation grants and internal UC monies for stipends and research? Are the funds available smaller or is the pool of applicants much larger and intense for all categories?

[unclelurker]

I am currently enrolled in a math/science PhD program at UC Berkeley. Our department is unchanged as far as offering the same packages, GSR, and GSI positions to our students. It's the other "little" things that have gotten cut. Less events/food for prospective student events, we can't pay for prospective students to visit anymore, etc. Overall, the impacts to students have not been as drastic as anticipated or played up. That's not to diminish the issues, but we are still doing faculty searches and going forward with retention cases so we don't lose top talent. Our departmental faculty aren't considering leaving at this time.

To respond to prolixity, UC offers are almost never as competitive as those coming from Privates. Even before the budget crisis our department simply couldn't offer as much as a private. They have bigger pockets and always will. The students that select our program, even with a smaller package, are drawn to the other wonderful things we have to offer (top ranked program, cutting-edge faculty, etc)!

If you can visit, that's a great thing to do. When I visited Berkeley in January the year I applied (before admissions decisions), I knew it was a perfect fit for me and I didn't even wait for all of my other offers once I got a yes from Berkeley.

I think years to completion is probably unchanged for grad students. It might change for undergrads with some of their course sections being eliminated. For my department I know I can say that my job prospects are unchanged as well. The reputation of our program is still incredibly strong, and the faculty still as famous as ever. People keep trying to recruit me!! All the time!!

Good luck in your decision making!

that speaks highly of your program for the headhunters coming in for recruitment. Is this the norm for departments in Berkeley, or only a few select and focused programs? I once saw a program with a gigantic multiseat gold cart filled with cookies and fresh squeezed juices traveling from office to office on a campus during a faculty break. It was amazing. I may have drooled. Maybe that is the feeling you experienced your January in Berkeley, or maybe it was a different experience in People's Park.

[sciencegal]

that speaks highly of your program for the headhunters coming in for recruitment. Is this the norm for departments in Berkeley, or only a few select and focused programs? I once saw a program with a gigantic multiseat gold cart filled with cookies and fresh squeezed juices traveling from office to office on a campus during a faculty break. It was amazing. I may have drooled. Maybe that is the feeling you experienced your January in Berkeley, or maybe it was a different experience in People's Park.

It's hard for me to speak to other departments besides my own, but what I said in my post was the truth as I know it. Believe me I'd be complaining if they hadn't paid me like it seems has happened in other departments. I agree everyone considering Berkeley and other UC's should ask lots of people (with actually information/experiences) what they think about the budget issues. I told one prospective student for our department my thoughts, but encouraged them to ask the faculty and others when they visited to get their input. Our faculty won't lie because the last thing we want is an unhappy resentful grad student in a small department.

RE: the food comment. It's just that that part of our budget got cut. We used to buy food for events and get it reimbursed and now the pot of money those reimbursements came from has been routed to more important things.

For what it's worth, the classes for our grad students have not been cut and won't be for the foreseeable future. We're actually adding 3 new courses to our core curriculum next year (2010-2011) and will be doing faculty searches very soon. We've lost no faculty, adjunct or otherwise.

It seems very departmentally dependent so ask ask ask if you are a prospective. I feel fortunate that our department has been weathering the storm well, still funding all our students, and growing, but that is clearly not the case for all. It probably helps that a lot of our funding comes from our faculty's NIH grants.

Edited February 11, 2010 by sciencegal

[sciencegal]

Short of scratching for every crumb and small grant, and learning the limited hours for underfunded departmental facilities, I think I am trying to navigate around the powerful sense of 'we can achieve' in the face of crumbling resources. I don't wish to undermine the herculean efforts to budget the CA educational system, but sometimes the daily affirmations seem defensive to a visitor. How do I get past that in an interview without being rude or gossipy about budget problems? I am very concerned about accepting admittance to UC when there are public issues in multiple departments, and many more that I don't know of and probably won't until fifth year. Where is reality on what is going on with the UCs? Is everyone thinking that this is such a great place, and it is really not that bad, and it can only get better? We all want that dream. And I wanted a house with an ARM, but we all know where that ended. And in that case, I hope that you rent.

Even the faculty that are doing ok to well are pissed. They got temporary (perhaps permanent?) pay cuts! You *should* get honest answers. They also usually have the most current information because the administration has to get faculty buy-in before they make changes. Shared governance.

Ask staff too...we have few staff members in our small department but staff are the ones that will also be incredibly honest because they are the first to get laid off, etc.

[cleisthenes]

My partner was admitted to an extremely competitive program at Berkeley (humanities), and they haven't given funding info yet but they are reimbursing flights up to $400, which is $50 more than UChicago offered her! So perhaps that says something about the relative financial positions of different departments.

[unclelurker]

...

RE: the food comment. It's just that that part of our budget got cut. We used to buy food for events and get it reimbursed and now the pot of money those reimbursements came from has been routed to more important things.

...

It probably helps that a lot of our funding comes from our faculty's NIH grants.

Supplemental funding for graduate students comes from scrounging available food from seminars and interviews, either from interviews or faculty invites. Harvard doesn't provide tea and cookies anymore, due to substantial loss in endowments (not a priority flip, the money is no longer there). While it may seem like more important things are funded now, all the unimportant little cuts - reams of paper, library subscriptions, fee increases can be fine if considered independently and in the short term. Added together and in the long term - throughout the course of a doctoral degree and postdoc attempt for tt, that does impact research quality. There isn't money to accept the same number of students, or feed those currently attending. And by feed, you know what I mean.

Berkeley did cut full time custodial staff for the entire university. Some cuts are university wide, some are departmental. Thanks for the information regarding your specifics, it is helpful.

NIH (NSF, many others) are great, but also time limited and soft money. Some PIs have been boosted by ARRA, but another consideration is the future freeze on federal spending proposed in 2011. That doesn't just hit at the UCs, but everyone in science.

While budgets can't cut external grants, they can cut the school/state support (however little it is). That puts more pressure to write and produce more grants, with leaner budgets and resources. Everyone has to justify their existence. Departments get cut or merged, or stop accepting graduate students altogether.

For the interview travel reimbursement - congrats on the acceptance first! And it may be regionally shifted for rates, as other universities seem to take into consideration distances for amounts. Although nothing in Illinois is good news (budget wise) right now.

Is this the worst year ever to go to graduate school or the best?

[pea-jay]

Is this the worst year ever to go to graduate school or the best?

i have heard two great opposing answers to this. On one hand it IS an awful to be trying to navigate the university system and even more nerve wracking when you are leaving a job when employment is so hard to find. ON THE OTHER HAND, the two years I will be off the job market could leave me well positioned to catch job opportunities when the economy turns around.

[coyabean]

So interesting to hear these first hand accounts. It helps frame my approach to selecting the right program.

I must say that while it may seem silly I absolutely ask schools about things like printing and data access. Like unclelurker said it seems small until you are down to your last $50 and you need to print a 60 page article and the school is now charging a nickel a page.

So I say that to say, there are no small financial questions this year. No assumptions allowed and everything in writing. Ask, ask again and then get somebody to put it on paper or in an email.

[strokeofmidnight]

Is this the worst year ever to go to graduate school or the best?

The worst in terms of getting in (shrinking spots, growing applicant pool), but perhaps a good year in terms of the job market. I'm in the humanities, and my field has a notoriously poor job market. However, with the shrinking cohort sizes in most programs (both last year and this year), there might be relatively fewer candidates on the market in 5-7 years. I'm also hoping that the current hiring freeze (or slowdown) that most programs are experiencing will lift over the next few years, and programs might just hire a bit more aggressively to compensate. Still, all of this is contingent on getting a decent offer from a program that will prepare you well for the job market...

[pea-jay]

The worst in terms of getting in (shrinking spots, growing applicant pool), but perhaps a good year in terms of the job market. I'm in the humanities, and my field has a notoriously poor job market. However, with the shrinking cohort sizes in most programs (both last year and this year), there might be relatively fewer candidates on the market in 5-7 years. I'm also hoping that the current hiring freeze (or slowdown) that most programs are experiencing will lift over the next few years, and programs might just hire a bit more aggressively to compensate. Still, all of this is contingent on getting a decent offer from a program that will prepare you well for the job market...

Demography is destiny. In 5-7 years the Boomers will (or should be) retiring en masse. In addition to having a smaller cohort size coming out of school during a time of (hopefully) increased vacancies should improve job prospects. That's what I'm counting on, albeit not for looking for academic work

[coyabean]

Demography is destiny. In 5-7 years the Boomers will (or should be) retiring en masse. In addition to having a smaller cohort size coming out of school during a time of (hopefully) increased vacancies should improve job prospects. That's what I'm counting on, albeit not for looking for academic work

The only problem with that is boomers have, supposedly, been on the verge of retirement for 10 years! But between increasing demands of weakened investment portfolios, declining home values, adult children that need support for longer and those damn Dennis Hopper investment ads telling them that they can live and skydive forever, the boomer retirement wave seems to be always coming but never arriving.

Edited February 13, 2010 by coyabean

[unclelurker]

it seems small until you are down to your last $50 and you need to print a 60 page article and the school is now charging a nickel a page.

So I say that to say, there are no small financial questions this year. No assumptions allowed and everything in writing. Ask, ask again and then get somebody to put it on paper or in an email.

Chime. And seconded. True. Yes.

It feels like micro details, but at least there are many people to ask the same question. Maybe, just maybe - get more information to fill out the picture. Funding covers so much that I didn't think about, it isn't just stipend or tuition waiver or fellowship (dreams!), but monies for research and facilities and access.

I understand the forecasts for the boomers, but in California I doubt there are incentives for tenured faculty to retire in the near future. More years teaching = more retirement pay. (This is assuming the goal is a tenure track job. Adjust as necessary.) Retention is more efficient than new hires, in any discipline. Additionally, the danger of NOT replacing faculty with a new hire, or covering with another department or adjunct is real.

Didn't the economy hit some of the retirement accounts pretty badly?

Some of the places I was considering were (note past tense) going to take students, but the current students chose to extend their stay by one more year rather than finish this year and emerge in the current job market. Two years from now, five - maybe the economy will rebound. But just because there is a smaller cohort this year, and likely next - does not mean a smaller cohort against which to compete for jobs. Competition will be against all the cohorts ahead and behind, dealing with the same economy. Cohorts ahead will have several years advantage to compete against. All the more reason to know exactly the funding situation, in writing if possible as coyabean notes, to have the resources to work while inside the institution.

I'm not going to repost the articles in this thread, but the Chronicle of Higher Education has had a series of great articles on why no one should be going to graduate school right now. Or ever.

[cleisthenes]

The only problem with that is boomers have, supposedly, been on the verge of retirement for 10 years! But between increasing demands of weakened investment portfolios, declining home values, adult children that need support for longer and those damn Dennis Hopper investment ads telling them that they can live and skydive forever, the boomer retirement wave seems to be always coming but never arriving.

Unfortunately, this is a bit of a myth. As baby boomers retire, their tenured professorships are, more often than not, now replaced by adjust positions or eliminated all together. Before the recession, most departments were shrinking in terms of tenured faculty. Now, most schools either have a hiring freeze or are looking at cutting positions. Meanwhile there are many, many more PhDs on the market every year (and this is only somewhat mitigated by the smaller cohort sizes in the last couple of years-- there is so much "build-up" of PhDs that every new degree-holder is competing with a vast field of unemployed scholars who have graduated in previous years and been flitting from visiting position to adjunct position to unemployment.

This is the state of the field. Given the current system, there is no indication it's getting any better. And there's no massive baby boomer retirement on the horizon. You should adjust to that idea before you embark on graduate study with a misconception about what's awaiting you at the end.

Edit: I should say that this is true for the humanities as well as social sciences and to some degree hard sciences, but since there is MUCH more funding for the latter two, especially hard sciences, plus the fact that there is much more of a prospect for desirable employment for hard science PhDs outside the academy, humanities is really by far the worst.

Edited February 15, 2010 by cleisthenes

[unclelurker]

Edit: I should say that this is true for the humanities as well as social sciences and to some degree hard sciences, but since there is MUCH more funding for the latter two, especially hard sciences, plus the fact that there is much more of a prospect for desirable employment for hard science PhDs outside the academy, humanities is really by far the worst.

True. I look at humanities as a model for academics as a whole. Popularity swells some departments during funding cycles (lag time), whereas other fields with so-called difficult topics or long term studies or infrequent products shrink. Those issues for funding and support cut across disciplines, math, art, whathaveyou. A long term study is a long term study, or working on a field site in the midst of a civil war. Add shifts in theory, combination of departments, and whatever else you want to throw in there - it just doesn't look good from any field's perspective. Maybe the sciences are better funded right now, but that does not represent the funding by the school+state, it is overwhelmingly augmented by grants from federal and private entities. The viability of those departments depend more so on the continual application and success of grants. Fail that, and the departments disappear. Whereas humanities are surviving - albeit at a significantly reduced rate and at poverty level. It seems that humanities/social sciences may have a slightly more realistic viewpoint and operating cost (due to drastic cuts) that the sciences have yet to take.

[figurefive]

My partner was admitted to an extremely competitive program at Berkeley (humanities), and they haven't given funding info yet but they are reimbursing flights up to $400, which is $50 more than UChicago offered her! So perhaps that says something about the relative financial positions of different departments.

I am starting to think about potential options for a grad program choice between Berkeley and (as of now) a private in the Midwest. Berkeley's funding package is for 5 years in the high teen's, while the Midwestern university has indicated that it will fund 5 years in the low 20's (about 20% more than what Berkeley is offering). I'm well aware of the differential between sciences and humanities (my friends who are currently in Boston-based PhD programs in the biosciences are funded in the low 30's), but to what extent is a funding package in the high teen's especially depressed due to the budget crisis? Is that normal, or should / could I expect that amount to increase in future years depending on improved budgetary circumstances? I have to say that I was slightly surprised at the figure given the notoriously high cost of living of the SF Bay area.

Or maybe I should just forget about the 20% difference in funding and say yes to Berkeley now given the preeminence of the department in my field...

[sciencegal]

I am starting to think about potential options for a grad program choice between Berkeley and (as of now) a private in the Midwest. Berkeley's funding package is for 5 years in the high teen's, while the Midwestern university has indicated that it will fund 5 years in the low 20's (about 20% more than what Berkeley is offering). I'm well aware of the differential between sciences and humanities (my friends who are currently in Boston-based PhD programs in the biosciences are funded in the low 30's), but to what extent is a funding package in the high teen's especially depressed due to the budget crisis? Is that normal, or should / could I expect that amount to increase in future years depending on improved budgetary circumstances? I have to say that I was slightly surprised at the figure given the notoriously high cost of living of the SF Bay area.

Or maybe I should just forget about the 20% difference in funding and say yes to Berkeley now given the preeminence of the department in my field...

The amount, of course, could be depressed by the budget, but packages in the high teens are not uncommon in my experience at Berkeley. Beginning GSI (teaching) positions all pay in the high teens and GSR (research) positions often start slightly lower but vary widely by department. If it's fellowship, if they end up with extra funding certain years they might throw it your way in flush years (it's happened to me) but I wouldn't make any assumptions to be safe. For the past 4-5 years, the packages my department has offered have been up to 33% less than what many privates offer our students. It doesn't hurt to make inquiries especially since you have a competing offer. They might be able to pad your offer with money from someone who declines their admission (we do this in our department). It can't hurt to ask. Sometimes ask more than once - if the division manager says there are no additional funds, mention it to the division chair in an email or if/when you visit campus. Could pay off. Good luck in your decision making process!