MA after 10 year hiatus?

[venusdefers]

I'm wondering if anyone here has had success (or knows of anyone) who has gone back into the field after a long time away from the field.

Some background:  I got a BA in Philosophy (and photography) in 2006, ended up getting an MFA in Photography in 2013, and now that I'm working and have some $$ saved, I'm seriously thinking about going back for philosophy.  It was always my first love, but I could never justify it because of the abysmal job market and the horror stories of what it's like to be a woman in the field.  I realize that at this point, an MA is the way to go before I can start thinking about PhDs. 

My interests are in philosophy of religion and metaphysics.  My undergrad GPA was really bad (2.9), MFA GPA was great (4.0), GRE 170 V 155 Q 5.5 AW.  I'm hoping that since my BA was such a long time ago that it will matter less, particularly in light of my great GRE scores.  I'm also a bit concerned about the writing sample.  I have some great award winning papers that I wrote in college but I haven't done much since then.  Could I use the old stuff or should I write something new?

Any other advice in general?  I know this is pretty atypical, and I'm just trying to feel out if this is a realistic goal or a pipe dream.

[Duns Eith]

MA sounds like the best idea, but whether you go for an MA or go for a PhD, you're gonna need letter writers. How difficult will it be to obtain at this point?

I take it those GRE scores are recent? Those are great scores.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Duns Eith

[venusdefers]

Letter writers might be a challenge but not impossible.  I was thinking I could contact my undergrad advisor who is a philosopher, but I don't know if he'll do it.  There are two art historians that I worked with in my MFA that were adamant that I get a PhD and I have no doubt that they would write for me.  The problem is that they're not philosophers.  And lastly, I work as an administrator in an Ivy League humanities department and some of the faculty I work with are privy to my work and academic abilities, but since they're not my profs, I don't know if it would be a great idea; more like a last resort.

[dgswaim]

I know a phil PhD student who's in his mid 50s. He came back to philosophy after a successful career in finance. People have done it.

[ThousandsHardships]

8 hours ago, venusdefers said:

Letter writers might be a challenge but not impossible.  I was thinking I could contact my undergrad advisor who is a philosopher, but I don't know if he'll do it.  There are two art historians that I worked with in my MFA that were adamant that I get a PhD and I have no doubt that they would write for me.  The problem is that they're not philosophers.  And lastly, I work as an administrator in an Ivy League humanities department and some of the faculty I work with are privy to my work and academic abilities, but since they're not my profs, I don't know if it would be a great idea; more like a last resort.

I know many people who've gone back to school after a long hiatus or after changing career plans and intellectual interests. Some have gone back to school even after already obtaining a PhD. If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about the relevance of the professors in the department you work with. The general rule of thumb is that the longer you've been away from school, the more you could afford to have your recommenders be less relevant (if that makes sense). If you've been out of school for ten years, it'd come as more of a surprise that you don't use a letter from a current or at least more recent supervisor/colleague than that you do use one. I would 100% go with one of the faculty you work with right now, and then one of the art history professors that you mentioned, and if you can't get a decent letter from your undergrad adviser, then go for the second art history professor. Has any of your work with the art historians been relevant to philosophy or demonstrated your background in philosophy? If so, then I'd forgo that undergrad adviser. If the only thing that person can say about you is the grades you've gotten in your classes, then you're better off not having that person write, even at the expense of relevance. Getting someone who can speak to your recent relevant work is best. And if you can't, I feel that in your particular case, you might be better off with the recent. Research and writing skills in the humanities is applicable across the fields. Whether it's philosophy or not in particular isn't as important.

As for your papers, I would read through them and see if viewed through a new eye, they're still as good as you thought they were. There's nothing wrong with using old papers. The only issue with undergrad is that sometimes the papers you write are not always research papers and do not always show your ability to engage scholarly research and articulate your own research using a variety of primary and secondary sources. They can still be great papers, but if they're not as useful if they don't show the type of work expected of you in grad school. Of course, I'm speaking more generally. For all I care, you papers could have been excellent research papers, in which case I don't think it'd matter too much whether it's old or new. But if you do want to write a new paper or edit your existing ones to engage more recent literature in the field (and maybe even cite a couple of your potential faculty mentors), that certainly could not hurt.

One other thing that I'd like to mention is that you should for sure get in touch with someone in your prospective departments (maybe a prospective research adviser) before you apply. A sub-3.0 GPA often puts students on the automatic reject list for graduate programs...unless the department has a reason to give your application a second glance, which would be the case if you're in touch with the department and are open about any difficulties you've faced such that they're willing to move your application onto the next step.

[hector549]

You mention that you're employed at an Ivy League institution. Perhaps you could consider taking a philosophy course or two there, perhaps a graduate course if you're able to do so. This would give you more recent grades on a transcript to help offset the low GPA from your BA (especially helpful if it's from a great institution), would help you get stronger letters, and could also give you a starting point for a new sample. If it's been 10 years, it would also give you a chance to see what it feels like to be doing academic philosophy again, and would probably also help you to feel less rusty in preparation for a graduate program.

[anonnn123]

23 hours ago, venusdefers said:

Letter writers might be a challenge but not impossible.  I was thinking I could contact my undergrad advisor who is a philosopher, but I don't know if he'll do it.  There are two art historians that I worked with in my MFA that were adamant that I get a PhD and I have no doubt that they would write for me.  The problem is that they're not philosophers.  And lastly, I work as an administrator in an Ivy League humanities department and some of the faculty I work with are privy to my work and academic abilities, but since they're not my profs, I don't know if it would be a great idea; more like a last resort.

I disagree with the post above. All your letter writers should be philosophers, if you're going to have a half decent chance at admission. When I was applying, I was discouraged by my professors from even asking letters from untenured philosophy faculty members. 

[xolo]

I went back after a long break in a completely different field, a total change. Just seconding the suggestions for finding letter writers, I took courses for a couple of years at the local university, then applied. That gave me some coursework and my letter writers. It worked, I got into a great program at a prestigious state school.

[hector549]

14 minutes ago, anonnn123 said:

I disagree with the post above. All your letter writers should be philosophers, if you're going to have a half decent chance at admission. When I was applying, I was discouraged by my professors from even asking letters from untenured philosophy faculty members. 

Ideally, yes, all your letters should be from tenured philosophy professors with whom you have worked, in order to be strong letters. However, I wouldn't be discouraged from applying if, say, getting all three letters from tenured philosophers isn't possible. MA programs, I believe, in particular are accustomed to students from somewhat less straightforward backgrounds. When I applied, I had one letter from a VAP in philosophy, one letter from an English professor, and the third from a tenured philosophy professor, and I was successful in obtaining admission to a number of programs. In the case of the OP, her situation is complicated by the fact that she graduated ten years ago, and has a very low undergraduate GPA. In her case, I think I would take several courses and try to get some up-to-date letters from philosophy faculty who would be able to write stronger letters, especially in light of her GPA.

[venusdefers]

Thank you all, this is great perspective.

I've looked into taking a class or two where I work, but there's a lot of red tape around admins doing academic stuff.  I'll do some more digging and see how that goes.

Regarding letters, I'm definitely going to ask my undergrad advisor for a few reasons.  The first is that he has written letters for me before, and evaluations of my work were always to the effect of "this person is brilliant and will make important contributions to the field..." so that's definitely a plus.  He was constantly pushing me to pursue a philosophy PhD, and I remember it was a major disappointment when I didn't.  I don't know how he'll feel about me picking it back up over a decade later, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.  He got his PhD from the #1 school for philosophy of religion (at least according to PGR, which I realize is controversial), and he's tenured, so it's would be a major bonus to have him in my corner.  FWIW, my grades in undergrad were pretty good in philosophy, but the overall GPA was dragged down because I went to a SLAC and was required to take a bunch of math and science classes that I bombed.

The other letters will probably be one of the art historians and either one of my colleagues or a philosophy prof if I can take a class or two here.  We'll see what happens, I'm not in a rush to apply next year, though I suppose I could if I got on top of it right now.

 

One last question - does anybody here have anecdotal information about the state of women in the field now?  When I first considered PhD programs 10 years ago, things were pretty abysmal and it was a contributing factor in why I decided not to go.  Things seem a bit better now, especially since the APA is getting on board, but I haven't found a lot of positive information about what it's like for female grad students in the field.

[Concordia]

From a different field, but almost 30 years after undergrad in that major (and over 15 years post-MBA).  I got over the hump by asking for recommendations from night-school profs.  Those classes were also helpful because they gave me a chance to generate a good writing sample.  

Sounds like you might not need a ton of those, but even one might patch up any holes in your file.  

Not that you want to get too casual about it, but an MA program is probably going to be a shade less picky about your referees than PhDs.  They may be seeing fewer conventional candidates, and in any case the cost of screwing up by taking you is lower, since you'll be gone sooner.  Presumably your undergrad advisor will have some wisdom on that, if he's not too far out of the grad-school loop.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Concordia