Is this a good offer?

[mosquito0016]

Not sure whether this belongs in "The Bank" or here. I just got accepted at Berkeley, which gave me a very convoluted funding package. I wanted to ask this community for thoughts on the package. Is it good? I'm unclear whether I'll be paying tuition (as they say" in-state" waivers). Is it saying that I will receive a fellowship my third year? Here is the wording:

I regret that, due to our limited funds, we are unable to offer you a fellowship during your first two years. The Department can, however, offer you Readerships which pay small stipends (currently between $2,900 and $4,600 per semester) and cover the in-state registration fees (currently $5,900 per semester). It is also quite possible that we will be able to offer you teaching appointments in either or both of your first two years. After your second year, that is, after you have completed our course and language requirements, we can guarantee you at least two years of teaching appointments. These appointments currently pay between $16,600 and $18,400 per year and cover the in-state registrations fees. All teaching appointments are contingent upon satisfactory progress in our program. You will receive a Doctoral Completion Fellowship if you advance to candidacy for the Ph.D. by the end of the third year of study, receive a satisfactory Annual Progress Report, and if you are on track to file the dissertation in a timely manner. If you choose to accept the DCF, the possibility of financial support from the University ends after the seventh year. While at Berkeley, you will be able to apply for a range of competitive merit fellowships for continuing and advanced graduate students, including the English Department Fellowship and University dissertation fellowships. Our students also do very well in competitions for extra-mural fellowships.

[comp_math]

Why does Berkeley want to take students when they can't give proper deals?

[mosquito0016]

Sorry, but do you think it's not a proper deal? I really can't untangle the language. I'm worried that you're right; it is not a deal.

[rising_star]

@comp_math, why don't you think this is a proper offer?

@jblevins09, what I would ask is what happens with the out-of-state portion of tuition or fees or whatever? And, I'd ask if there are RA opportunities so you can earn more money than what the readerships pay.

[hubris]

Well, I would assume it is not a proper offer since it is not fully funded in a normal year.

However, the UC system is really bleeding money so it might be the new normal.

It looks like you will not have to worry about tuition, but will be largely on your own for living costs.

Great nameplate to have and it looks like they like you.

So, try to bargain for other things to mitigate costs.

Edited February 11, 2010 by hubris

[comp_math]

@comp_math, why don't you think this is a proper offer?

It doesn't cover enough - how are you paying your rent, food, transportation, and health insurance? Bay area is an expensive place to be in. You will probably need to bring in some of your own money, at least for the first 2 years.

Edited February 11, 2010 by comp_math

[twocosmicfish]

A good offer? It depends on how much you want Berkeley. After the 3rd year it looks reasonable - a combination of assistantships and fellowships up through year 7. Prior to that, it depends on (a) whether or not you are a CA resident, and ( whether or not you can swallow the extra living expenses during that time. If you are NOT a CA resident, then you are going to be on the hook for the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition - a hefty hunk of change, I am sure. As to the rest... what are your other options? Is Berkeley worth paying an extra $20k+ in living expenses during those two years, and does holding a "readership" prevent you from seeking a paying part-time job?

If your other options are lesser programs and lesser advisors, then this might be worthwhile, especially if you are Californian. If Harvard makes you an offer... take it.

[someDay]

You should check for extra perks such as health insurance, how many hours they allow you to work, etc.

The good thing about this offer is that it's from Berkeley. Other than that I think it's very poor - it might be manageable if you're a CA resident, get the maximum 4.6K per semester, they pay your health insurance and you find some posh bay-area mums who see you as the solution to their kids' math troubles.

sD.

[peppermint.beatnik]

Sounds like the deal has a lot of qualifiers, too.

[nutmeg]

For what it's worth, the readerships and GSI (TA) gigs at Berkeley cover health insurance, as well as registration fees. That may sweeten the pot a little, but I think other folks are right: You need to figure out how much of the out-of-state tuition you'd be on the hook for during your first year. It won't matter for your second year, because you'll qualify for CA residency by the end of year 1.

[strokeofmidnight]

Not sure whether this belongs in "The Bank" or here. I just got accepted at Berkeley, which gave me a very convoluted funding package. I wanted to ask this community for thoughts on the package. Is it good? I'm unclear whether I'll be paying tuition (as they say" in-state" waivers). Is it saying that I will receive a fellowship my third year? Here is the wording:

I regret that, due to our limited funds, we are unable to offer you a fellowship during your first two years. The Department can, however, offer you Readerships which pay small stipends (currently between $2,900 and $4,600 per semester) and cover the in-state registration fees (currently $5,900 per semester). It is also quite possible that we will be able to offer you teaching appointments in either or both of your first two years. After your second year, that is, after you have completed our course and language requirements, we can guarantee you at least two years of teaching appointments. These appointments currently pay between $16,600 and $18,400 per year and cover the in-state registrations fees. All teaching appointments are contingent upon satisfactory progress in our program. You will receive a Doctoral Completion Fellowship if you advance to candidacy for the Ph.D. by the end of the third year of study, receive a satisfactory Annual Progress Report, and if you are on track to file the dissertation in a timely manner. If you choose to accept the DCF, the possibility of financial support from the University ends after the seventh year. While at Berkeley, you will be able to apply for a range of competitive merit fellowships for continuing and advanced graduate students, including the English Department Fellowship and University dissertation fellowships. Our students also do very well in competitions for extra-mural fellowships.

My partner received (and for what it's worth, accepted) the same package last year--also from the same department at Berkeley. It's worth noting, however, that he was an in-state student, and thus his entire tuition/fees were waivered.

"I regret that, due to our limited funds, we are unable to offer you a fellowship during your first two years. The Department can, however, offer you Readerships which pay small stipends (currently between $2,900 and $4,600 per semester) and cover the in-state registration fees (currently $5,900 per semester)."

If you're in-state, tuition and fees are covered by the readerships/TAships. If you're out of state, I think (check with the department on this) that you will pay the difference between in/out of state tuition for the first year only if you're diligent about establishing residency. Both the readerships and TAships will cover your health insurance (which is quite good)

"After your second year, that is, after you have completed our course and language requirements, we can guarantee you at least two years of teaching appointments. These appointments currently pay between $16,600 and $18,400 per year and cover the in-state registrations fees. All teaching appointments are contingent upon satisfactory progress in our program." You can tap into the guaranteed TAships (which pay more than the readerships) beginning your third year.

"You will receive a Doctoral Completion Fellowship if you advance to candidacy for the Ph.D. by the end of the third year of study, receive a satisfactory Annual Progress Report, and if you are on track to file the dissertation in a timely manner. If you choose to accept the DCF, the possibility of financial support from the University ends after the seventh year." This is new. It used to be called the "normative time dissertation fellowship" and did not carry a 7-year cut-off. But so far, this is the only real change that I've noticed. Basically, if and only if you pass your orals and the language exams by the end of your third year (most people in this department do), you are guaranteed a one-year fellowship that you can use starting your fourth year. HOWEVER, if you take the fellowship, the university will cut off all forms of non-outside funding after your 7th year. (There's a long story behind this--pm me for the details). Alternatively, you can (and should) apply for other fellowship possibilities.

What this letter leaves out (understandably) is that the department takes "leftover" money at the end of the fisco year and distributes it to its non-fellowship students. That amount, while never guaranteed, can be in the thousands. For in-state students on readerships (ie, the ones that do not pay fees/tuition), the aggregate of that "leftover" funding and their readership stipend is comparable to TAship stipends at other programs. It obviously lacks the security of guaranteed TAships, but it may be worth considering.

I can't tell you whether or not this is "good." It depends on what other offers you're considering. I will say that many current graduate students in this department have turned down far better funded offers from peer programs to attend. Don't take this offer for the prestige. But if this program is truly a good fit for you, and you think you can do your best work here, it's worth considering.

Edited: Just to briefly respond to some of the other postings, this is a completely "normal" offer for this department at Berkeley and has been for at least several years. (Contrary to the comments posted, this isn't a newly impoverished offer caused by a UC system that's spiraling into bankruptcy). Berkeley typically gives out two different levels of funding. About half (perhaps less, especially this year) of the offers will include fellowships the first two years. The rest are exactly as you described. You'd want to pay attention during the visit (if you do decide to go), but from my experience, students are treated equally (both by their professors, and among their peers) regardless of their funding package...something that pleasantly surprised me.

RE: bargaining/teaching hours. You might have some wiggle room if enough students awarded fellowships turn down the offer, but it probably won't be easy. It is worth asking around about RAships with professors in your area. They're rare (and entirely tied to the whims of the particular professor), but occasionally possible. The readership is a 25% appointment, which means you'd probably be working 10 hours a week (though it's clustered around papers and exams).

Edited February 11, 2010 by strokeofmidnight

[mosquito0016]

Thank you so much everybody, especially strokeofmidnight. I feel like I have a better sense for the quality of the offer, and for exactly what is being offered. If anyone else has opinions I'd love to hear them.

[palindrome]

I think a lot of the shock at the stinginess of the offer on here is caused by the different funding expectations that science/math/engineering students have compared to humanities students. Offers in science can come to $30K/year. In English departments? Not so much. So just be aware that you can't compare this to offers from different departments. Good luck.

[cogneuroforfun]

I think a lot of the shock at the stinginess of the offer on here is caused by the different funding expectations that science/math/engineering students have compared to humanities students. Offers in science can come to $30K/year. In English departments? Not so much. So just be aware that you can't compare this to offers from different departments. Good luck.

I don't know about English specifically, but I know History stipends at some Ivies hit the upper twenties (something like $27,500). Department certainly matters, with humanities getting less than sciences, but school matters a lot, too.

[cesada]

One thing to keep in mind - Berkeley has a great reputation and a great job placement rate. In my opinion, having to take out a small loan for the first two years at Berkeley would be a better bet than going to a lesser-known school with worse job prospects after graduation. You might be poorer in the short-term, but it could save you from perpetual adjunctdom.

[jacib]

I don't know about English specifically, but I know History stipends at some Ivies hit the upper twenties (something like $27,500). Department certainly matters, with humanities getting less than sciences, but school matters a lot, too.

I believe that this wrong. I thought at one point I found a Humanities/Social Science stipend comparison chart, but I can't find it now. I have never known a Humanities/Social Science program to pay that much, even in a place with a high cost of living, like the Bay Area, New York, or Boston/Cambridge. I think generally those kind of places will hit you with something between 20-25,000, though the highest figure I've actually heard is 23.

For a reference, here are biomedical science stipends: http://www.wendychao.com/science/stipends/2009-10.html. Engineering can be similar, I think, but Physics and Math I believe are usually lower.

Here's something from Hopkins about their low Humanities/Social Science stipends: http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/media/storage/paper932/news/2007/03/08/Opinion/Setting.The.Record.Straight.On.Graduate.Stipends-2769552.shtml the important quote is:

Some graduate students, especially those teaching writing and language courses, design and teach these classes independent of any fully paid faculty member, yet their remuneration is the same as those who TA: a maximum of $14,000 a year. U.S. academic institutions of comparable caliber to Hopkins, in cities with costs of living that are comparable to that of Baltimore, have recently raised their stipend rates for graduate students. Such graduate programs are now offering stipends around $19,000-$20,000 [for Humanities/Social Science students], which makes Hopkins less attractive to prospective students who are comparing figures.

Private schools tend to have slightly higher stipends. For complete stipends for 111 school, check out http://chronicle.com/stats/stipends/ The University of Chicago offers 19,000 for English, UCLA offers slightly lower than that, but they generally don't have that many elite schools in expensive cities listed. Here's a more detailed look at the U of C's stipends: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/08/chicago

Basically, your program is saying "You pay for the Masters degree, we'll cover the rest of your PhD."

[Pamphilia]

First of all CONGRATULATIONS on Berkeley! That is freaking amazing. You're a rock star.

Berkeley English has a reputation for doing this. It's normal, and from what I hear (and I think Strokeofmidnight also said) fellowship and non-fellowship students aren't really treated differently by professors. It's still a bummer, though. The Bay area is expensiiiivvvve...

[jacib]

I believe that this wrong. I thought at one point I found a Humanities/Social Science stipend comparison chart, but I can't find it now. I have never known a Humanities/Social Science program to pay that much, even in a place with a high cost of living, like the Bay Area, New York, or Boston/Cambridge. I think generally those kind of places will hit you with something between 20-25,000, though the highest figure I've actually heard is 23.

For a reference, here are biomedical science stipends: http://www.wendychao...s/2009-10.html. Engineering can be similar, I think, but Physics and Math I believe are usually lower.

Here's something from Hopkins about their low Humanities/Social Science stipends: http://media.www.jhu...s-2769552.shtml the important quote is:

Some graduate students, especially those teaching writing and language courses, design and teach these classes independent of any fully paid faculty member, yet their remuneration is the same as those who TA: a maximum of $14,000 a year. U.S. academic institutions of comparable caliber to Hopkins, in cities with costs of living that are comparable to that of Baltimore, have recently raised their stipend rates for graduate students. Such graduate programs are now offering stipends around $19,000-$20,000 [for Humanities/Social Science students], which makes Hopkins less attractive to prospective students who are comparing figures.

Private schools tend to have slightly higher stipends. For complete stipends for 111 school, check out http://chronicle.com/stats/stipends/ The University of Chicago offers 19,000 for English, UCLA offers slightly lower than that, but they generally don't have that many elite schools in expensive cities listed. Here's a more detailed look at the U of C's stipends: http://www.insidehig...7/02/08/chicago

Basically, your program is saying "You pay for the Masters degree, we'll cover the rest of your PhD."

Just for the record, I found a Social Science/Humanities stipend over 25,000: http://www.yale.edu/...al/stipend.html lists the minimum (read: Humanities) stipend as 25,500, but that includes summers.

For more comparisons of stipends, I started a new topic:

Edited February 20, 2010 by jacib

[PaperChaser]

Not sure whether this belongs in "The Bank" or here. I just got accepted at Berkeley, which gave me a very convoluted funding package. I wanted to ask this community for thoughts on the package. Is it good? I'm unclear whether I'll be paying tuition (as they say" in-state" waivers). Is it saying that I will receive a fellowship my third year? Here is the wording:

I regret that, due to our limited funds, we are unable to offer you a fellowship during your first two years. The Department can, however, offer you Readerships which pay small stipends (currently between $2,900 and $4,600 per semester) and cover the in-state registration fees (currently $5,900 per semester). It is also quite possible that we will be able to offer you teaching appointments in either or both of your first two years. After your second year, that is, after you have completed our course and language requirements, we can guarantee you at least two years of teaching appointments. These appointments currently pay between $16,600 and $18,400 per year and cover the in-state registrations fees. All teaching appointments are contingent upon satisfactory progress in our program. You will receive a Doctoral Completion Fellowship if you advance to candidacy for the Ph.D. by the end of the third year of study, receive a satisfactory Annual Progress Report, and if you are on track to file the dissertation in a timely manner. If you choose to accept the DCF, the possibility of financial support from the University ends after the seventh year. While at Berkeley, you will be able to apply for a range of competitive merit fellowships for continuing and advanced graduate students, including the English Department Fellowship and University dissertation fellowships. Our students also do very well in competitions for extra-mural fellowships.

I don't think that this is a bad offer under two circumstances: 1. if you are independently wealthy or are willing to take our loans, or 2. if the "in-state registration fees" cover your tuition even if you're out of state. Assuming that the tuition deal only covers in-state, even AFTER the first 2 years and you are not in-state, I'd pass, even though it is Berkeley. If you're already in-state or would be considered in-state after two years (or whatever), I think it's worth taking out loans for two years until you can get a teaching appointment. If it's your dream school, take out the loans. There are a lot of repayment options out there...

[utsusemi]

I don't think that this is a bad offer under two circumstances: 1. if you are independently wealthy or are willing to take our loans, or 2. if the "in-state registration fees" cover your tuition even if you're out of state. Assuming that the tuition deal only covers in-state, even AFTER the first 2 years and you are not in-state, I'd pass, even though it is Berkeley. If you're already in-state or would be considered in-state after two years (or whatever), I think it's worth taking out loans for two years until you can get a teaching appointment. If it's your dream school, take out the loans. There are a lot of repayment options out there...

It sounds like the OP would be on the hook for out of state tuition for the first year, perhaps? However, I got an offer from another UC which mentioned that grad students can usually establish California residency in time for the second year, i.e., unless they don't do their homework on the residency thing, no one should have to pay more than one year of nonresident tuition.