publicpolicyposter

Mmac06, That’s great you’ve done so much research on it. Just a fewthoughts: -make sure you use the weighted average of the interest rates between the Stafford and GradPlus loans. It comes up to 7.58% -also, make sure to add initiation fees for the loans. Totaldebt comes up to 142,900 -in regards to loan forgiveness, like you said, you have alot of constraints in your career for ten years. How about if you find an opportunityto progress your career working for an NGO abroad? Or a foreign government? Or youwant to try the private sector (social ventures, impact investing, and all theother really cool things going on in socially-focused private sector right now)for a little while? -I don’t know much about IBR, but it looks like you know itpretty well. I should check it out. I think, however, that you still accumulateinterest while in this program. So if you ever stop qualifying, then yourpayments will jump up to make up for the subsidized payments you already made. Isn’tthat correct? Again, this could limit your career options quite a bit. -For LRAP, from what you said, if you make over 60k, youwouldn’t qualify, and that’s below the median NGO job salary for an MPP. In addition, thisprogram is not exclusively for MPPs, MPAs could qualify too, which leads to thenext point. -the MPP is not a “terminal” masters, meaning the highermaster in a given field. HKS itself even makes it (or a similar master) a pre-reqfor the MPA2 program. This immediately puts you in a disadvantage whencompeting for jobs out of HKS compared to the MPA2 and MPA-ID grads, so they’lllikely get the higher paid and more exciting jobs. I don’t know that puttingyourself under the burden of so much debt and the restrictions of so many loanprograms, to make the kind of money MPPs makes, is really worth it. Could youget an MPP with financial aid at a different school, and then come to HKS foran MPA and spend the big bucks on the “bigger” degree? At the end of the day,we all have to ask ourselves if the program we chose provides us theempowerment to live our life to the fullest and truly pursue our goals, dreamsand passions of public service, or if the degree comes with too many stringsattached, and we end up a captive in rigid career options with the fear ofhaving to pay too much interest and principal for many years to come. As you can imagine, the freedom to exploreopportunities throughout my career means a lot to me, that’s why I’ll get mydegrees. A degree that takes away a significant part of that freedom to exploremakes me cringe a bit. Is the Harvard MPP brand worth such a significant costin terms of a person’s career freedom and career innovation? I don’t think sofor me. Just my quick thoughts on it.

JAubrey, I’m glad to hear that you know anecdotes of people doingwell. At no point did I say people in the HKS MPP are not bright or that the educationisn’t fantastic. But it is just reckless to ignore the stats that HKS puts outitself. These are not my numbers. Look at the settled rate (http://harvardcitizen.com/2010/09/16/kennedy-school-graduate-employment-rates-remain-steady-during-recession/)and the employment report (http://www.hks.harvard.edu/var/ezp_site/storage/fckeditor/file/pdfs/degree-programs/oca/Classof2009EmploymentOverview.pdf).They are terrible. I don’t know of any other degree program at HKS, Harvard, orany other university that requires you to incur so much debt (because of thelack of Financial Aid and the high costs of tuition) and then gives you solittle earning potential. The return on investment is by far the worst I’veseen. MPAs and MPA-IDs incur the same debt but have higher earning potentials.That’s a fact; which means employers generally consider MPPs less valuable totheir organizations. Denying that is nonsense. If you get an MPP from HKS you should probably plan ongetting another master’s degree as well. Shouldn’t potential students be awarethat they are getting the master degree with the least earning potential fromany of the 4 major professional schools at Harvard? And know that they are gettingsometimes even more debt than other programs (because of the lack of financialaid at HKS)? MPPs have low earning potential, high debt, and carry a sign thatsays “less than MPA”. Who cares if MPAs look down on you or not? I never saidthat. What I said is that you accumulate the same debt and get paid less. Anyone can get thehint of what it means to get paid less. No one needs to go to Harvard to serve. And in regards to brand power, HKS already doesnt carry the same "wow" factor as the other professional schools at Harvard, such as HBS, HLS, and HMS (ask anyone who went to the other professional schools), and on top of that, the MPP has the least "wow" factor from all the HKS programs. People should have the opportunity to know that and weigh that in their balances when choosing what school to go to and how much debt is it really worth.

I think the problem with the MPP programs is its very core. I’m nottrying to exaggerate. From an outsider's perspective, HKS has 4 master’sprograms that cover roughly the same skills. I don’t think employers are veryconcerned with the subtleties in the differences of curriculum between the MPP,the MPA, or the MC/MPA for example. However, everyone knows very well that thebig difference between the programs is the qualifications to get in; MPPs arethe least qualified of the 4 HKS masters, and everyone knows it. So, while yougo to Harvard to buy this amazing brand power for $140K in debt, you are alsobuying a stamp that says “least qualified at HKS”, or “less than”. At the sametime you are spending all this money for the Harvard brand you are shootingyourself on the foot and taking away the luster of it in comparison to everyoneelse at the university. When you graduate from the HKS MPP, not only are youcompeting for jobs with all your classmates but also with the graduates of allthe other programs (at least for the jobs you really want); and, each one ofthe graduates of the other programs carries an invisible sign that says “Harvardthinks I’m better than the MPPs”. So, when you are negotiating a job as an MPP (ifyou are lucky to be in that position) you are completely pushed down in yoursalary potential by what the other “more qualified” programs are getting insalary. If you try to go higher than your salary range, the potential employerwill likely think, “well, for that money I can get someone with an MPA, MPA-ID, or dualdegree”, so your earning potential is depressed because your degree is not seenas a terminal degree for your field—even though you are paying the same or morethan most terminal degree students are paying in any school at Harvard or othertop universities. I just wouldn’t want to be in the salary negotiation seat asan MPP with all that competition from the other HKS programs. And that is represented in their salary stats. What i think HKS should do is simply combine the MPP and MPA. It isnot right that someone will pay so much money for a degree that will alwaysmean “less qualified than MPA”. Most MPP grads, given their enormous debt, won’t beable to get a second master of similar cost. Compare with all the otherprofessional schools at Harvard, where you pay similar amounts, but you get adegree that is considered terminal, meaning that you have the highest expecteddegree in your area of expertise. HKS should just do away with the MPP and combine it with theMPA, or at least make it equal in standing, for the sake of all the MPP students. At his point, the MPP looks morelike a dead end masters than a terminal masters. Just look at their “settled”stats again: http://harvardcitizen.com/2010/09/16/kennedy-school-graduate-employment-rates-remain-steady-during-recession/ I think the MPP could definitely work as a dual degree, but not alone. If I were to do an HKS masters alone, I'd try for the MPA or the MPA-ID. This just my opinion from reading a lot and talking to people a lot of people.

In my opinion, the MPP is just an “analyst” degree. Not a “leader”degree. I haven’t heard of anyone achieving anything with that degree. All thefamous HKS grads that I’ve heard of got other degrees, especially MC/MPAs—whichonly accepts already successful and accomplished individuals. MPPs are probablytoo burdened with debt to be able to accomplish much in the public sector. In addition, the public sector and NGOs love hiring MBAsbecause they feel they can better relate and understand large donors, corporateinterests and culture, small-business constituents, etc. You could probablyapply to a top 15 MBA program, get a bunch of financial aid, make over 100K ayear, and go in and out of the private sector when needed, and look like champin the eyes of nonprofits and as a philanthropists in the eyes of the businessworld. Just saying…

Now, that’s even if you get employment. HKS’s “settled” rateby June after graduation has been around 60% (88% by October) for several years—whichis very low especially considering what settled means. “Settled” includessecond- and third-choice employment, part-time employment, giving up lookingfor employment, going back to school, returning to your previous employer (withyour tail between your legs), and then actually getting the employment youwould expect after incurring almost 140,000 in debt and giving your life away inservitude. And 40% are not even “settled”!!?? Ouch! Source: http://harvardcitizen.com/2010/09/16/kennedy-school-graduate-employment-rates-remain-steady-during-recession/

Now consider the debt. Tuition and living expenses for theMPP program come up to $69,323 a year (http://www.hks.harvard.edu/degrees/sfs/prospective-students/tuition/domestic)or $138,646 for both years. You can borrow $41K from government Stafford loans (6.8%fixed interest + 1% origination fee) and the rest, $97,646 from government DirectGrad PLUS Loan (7.9% fixed + 4.0% origination fee). To make it short, you’ll bepaying around $1,700 a month or $20,500 a year in a 10 yr payment plan or$1,060 a month or $12,700 a year in a 25 plan. These are huge monthly payments.Total interest paid over lifetime of the loans will be $65K in the 10 yr planor $180K in the 25 yr plan, big chunks of money in interest alone as well. Is it realistic for someone with so much debt to really havethe financial freedom to work in the public or NGO sector? The majority ofgraduates (58%) go into Public-National and NGO work. Let’s say you are in theluckier half of that majority and you are making between 56K and 62K (you mightwish to get into the IMF or WB, but less than 5% of HKS MPP grads get into eventhe broad category of “international government orgs”, so don’t bet on it!). Ifyou had to pay 20K a year in student loans, you would really be making onlybetween 36K and 42K a year. I have friend who works at quiznos and makes thatmuch. How could someone ever support a family like that?

To all who didn’t get fellowships and scholarships for the HKSMPP. I think you should consider the following points: If you really want to work in the public or nonprofit sectorsafter graduation look at the income stats from HKS’s latest employment report(pages 3 and 7): http://www.hks.harvard.edu/var/ezp_site/storage/fckeditor/file/pdfs/degree-programs/oca/Classof2009EmploymentOverview.pdf Sector Annual Median Salary Percent of employed Public/National $56,000 37.4% Public/State $48,000** 6.1% Public/Local $73,500 6.1% Public/Intl Gvt. Orgs. $79,000** 4.6% Nonprofit/NGO $62,000 20.6% Stats includedual degree graduates **Five reports or fewer Remember these stats are the medians, so exactly half of Harvard’sMPP students got less money than what is portrayed (I wish they would providequintiles!). On top of that, these stats take into consideration those studentswith dual degrees, such as MBAs from Stanford GSB, JDs from Yale SL, and MDsfrom HMS. If you are not getting a dual degree, can you really compare yourselfwith this pool?