invicta

Here is my advice.  Take it for what it is worth since I am not on an admissions committee:
 
1) The GRE is a horrible test.  It is infuriating that you are required to learn about things like geometry and algebra in order to get into good public administration/policy programs.  I am studying for the test now and I sympathize with you.  But you need to take it and do reasonably well.  I don't know much about Ph.D programs in public affairs but you should try to boost both your Verbal score and your Math score by at least eight points each.  What was your Writing score?
 
2) Where did you go to graduate school?  What is a "newly ranked Tier 4" public administration program?
 
3) It sounds like you have substantial work experience in the field of education.  I think you should focus on that experience and education policy as you don't seem to have a public health policy background.

I've been looking at back posts on the relative quantitative rigorousness of programs, and I've noticed that virtually every program is described by some as "quant heavy", etc. For me, the ability to push myself quantitative and learn advanced skills of statistics, econometrics, microeconomics, and program evaluation is one of my most important criteria for evaluating programs. And I feel a little let down by this forum, which is generally quite informative and helpful.

For instance, GSPP is often highly regarded as quant heavy. However, their math camp spends half of the time on pre-calculus topics. To me, that sends off a little alarm.

I hope to post some of the results of my own research, which will compare syllabi, topics, and textbooks across core quant classes, but my initial impression is that at even Harris, GSPP, and Ford, it's going to take some work to get beyond advanced undergraduate classes in econ and math/stats.

With that in mind, what do you know about:

1) Advanced track quant options within the program(Ford offers an "In-Depth" Micro II, Harris has something a long these lines, etc)
2) Taking classes from econ departments/attending econ math camp. How does testing work? Has anyone done this? Many students praise the ability to take courses from econ departments, but I know most professors aren't going to be happy with letting policy students into PhD level courses, which are highly theoretical and full of proofs. Most students of which survive them only by working close together with groups of other PhD students - something that I would have difficulty doing as an MPP student.

For current students, did any of you come from a math/econ background and feel underwhelmed by the policy school's quant offerings? How did you get around this?

I'm looking for econometrics and micro courses that use multivariate calculus (lagrangians, etc), matrix algebra, and maybe some proofs. Can anyone help me out with specific examples, courses, books, syllabi, etc? An econometrics book that references Greene, and a micro book on the level of Nicholson are some of the clues that I'm looking for.

Sorry for the rambling post guys, I'm feeling overwhelmed looking for old syllabi and course descriptions. Thanks for your comments.

From what I hear they do only look at the last 60 credits, I thought if I had a masters and 5 year work experience in the field would help. I feel like research experience trumps work experience any day. I did get into a MPP program at Georgia tech though. I deferred though because CMU wanted me to sit in on a class to see how i performed before making a commitment. So that is what I will be doing in the fall.

I just did a random website check and saw that i got rejected from georgia tech. I guess it doesnt matter how far out of undergad you are or how much work experience you have or if you have a masters degree. They still cant forget about your past in undergrad. I guess i will be going to virginia tech to study industrial engineering, i guess public policy isnt in gods plan for me

Is you interest in ed policy or in curriculum/learning & instruction?  The substance of your post suggests the latter, but you start it and end it talking about policy. 

I'm not sure if the others you mention include me, cpaige, but as for me, my comment meant no disrespect to the Ivies, et al. I've met some fantastic people (including yourself and others on this forum) from the best schools in the country. It's not a matter of thinking the people there are snobs - it's just a different atmosphere and learning/working environment than I'd most likely be comfortable with. (Kind of like I'd also prefer not to live in Japan. Great place, just not my thing.) I love being at a medium-sized school with mostly undergrads, and that's where I'd like to teach and research. Also, this can be a sensitive subject since I think many of us outside the big name schools find that our backgrounds sometimes get looked down upon by some in academia (not anyone here, just in general) and rightly feel slighted, since we love where we are as much as anyone else.

But hey, if someday Yale offers me a job, who could say no to that?

For me personally it is the research/teach load. I would much rather work at an institution where I teach a few courses and research as I can, rather than at a place where I am expected to pump out papers and only get to teach one course a semester.

Also, I am sorry if I have generalized too much. For me, I really love where I go to undergrad and want to teach at a place just like it. I think we all sort of set ourselves standards by where we went. I, quite honestly, think I would feel inadequate at a place like Yale, where the students who approached me might in all due respect, be a lot smarter than me. That being said, I also sort of cringe at the idea of teaching at a community college, even though I personally know several very smart people who got their starts at one, and who are going to make a lot more money than me in 10 years.

I think there are certainly nice individuals who came from the big 10. During my application process I spoke with a prof at one of my target schools who earned their PhD from the best in the nation. They were incredibly friendly and helpful before they knew anything about my ability besides my interests. (And by helpful, I mean really helpful. much more so than any of the others profs I spoke to who came from much lower ranked programs.) They remained equally so (no more, no less) after they knew some of my stats.

Again, though, I think people sort of generally favor those at their level or higher... even people who are already close to the bottom like myself.

Just to clarify, you mean that there are 500-600 PhD applicants for UW every year? The site said something like 250 for 2008... Are you serious? They don't even fund all of their students.



Anyway, to the main point of this threat, I appreciated all of the comments here as they have all been honest and respective of others. I honestly don't know much about all of this, but I can share what I have observed.

When I intially approached a professor of mine to discuss graduate school, he informed me that he got his job because he didn't go to a top school. The man who hired him told my professor that he would much rather hire someone at the top of their lower-ranked school than at the bottom of a higher-ranked one as the latter can be "non approachable." When you hire professors to teach at a small BA-only department like my own, you are looking for amiable individuals who are better teachers than researchers. This is partially because the majority of those attending X university are, let's face it, not the brightest of the bunch who got good state money to attend, rather than smart trust-fund kids at the big 10. At X University you are hoping to spark some interest in a kid who is probably otherwise not going to think twice about important issues. At the big 10 you are filtering the comments of those who are trying to win you over to write them superb letters for grad school. This is a simplification, of course. There are very smart kids at X schools who simply couldn't afford to go to Harvard or who didn't want to, and who have big dreams and who are arrogent. There are also not-so-bright kids at Harvard who got lucky and don't care about school at all. But the bulk of those you are teaching does matter when looking at who you hire.

Interestingly, that professor is retiring soon and my department is trying to replace him currently. They have over 40 applicants. I have no idea whether or not that is competitive, but it sure doesn't sound like an easy ticket to a job, even at a BA only department at a small state school. If I don't get in anywhere this year, I'm going to have a serious talk with my professor about whether or not to apply to less-respected programs next year. At that time hopefully I can get some info on where exactly these applicants came from, and how much that matters. That could provide a good look into the system for those of us who don't want to teach at Yale, but who want a job at a good, yet small state school.

Perhaps they are applying because they have been taken in by insipid advice to pursue their whims (better known as "dreams") no matter how unrealistic or ill-suited, or they have actually convinced themselves that their love for "the game" is so deep and pure that it needs no merely external crutch like, say, income, job stability, personal dignity, or health insurance for their children--they can be happy without all these things so long as they can spend their days regressing Congressional voting data. Or because they have been strung along by the institutions themselves, which need TAs for their undergrads and RAs for their faculty just like top schools, and face no discernible disincentives to taking on far more graduate students than can ever find suitable employment on the academic job market.

It has never been clear to me whether anything but the immediate financial situation of the graduate institution and its ability to offer stipends places any constraint on graduate admission. And even that is not a great constraint--many people seem perfectly willing to dig themselves into debt at places like Georgetown for the blessed opportunity to be graduate students. What incentive do graduate programs have to peg their admissions to the academic job market and admit fewer students as fewer jobs open up?

Another thing that those perusing placement statistics should be aware of is that departments frequently include graduates in post-docs, and those working in some non-professorial capacity in higher education (for example, in administration or student services) among those placed at "academic jobs" without noting explicitly the nature of their employment. Further Googling may be prudent when dealing with these claims.

Thanks for your post. It's helpful to me even though I'm studying in another field.

Though I do have a question. You claim "I know that this sounds harsh, but for most jobs, a job file from a school out of the top 25 won't even be considered. It will just go on the trash. Let this sink in."

I decided to investigate this a little bit. You mention UGA in your original post (I'm assuming you're referring to UGA when you mention Athens). According to their Political Science Department website, no less than 12 professors earned their Ph.D. from a program that was NOT in the top-25 according the U.S. News and World Report. That's nearly 55% of the faculty. Further, UGA's undergrad program is ranked 58 overall and 20 for public schools by the U.S. News and World Report, so it is a fairly respectable, large research university.

How would you explain this?

I hope this doesn't sound confrontational - I'm genuinely curious.

No. Mostly because individuals posting here are typically applying to all of those schools concurrently. Separating them into sub-forums won't accomplish much of anything imho.
 
Status quo is best here.

Check out this online series for calc: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variable-calculus-fall-2006/video-lectures/lecture-1-derivatives/

I wanted to take this thread in a slightly different direction. I've been admitted to Harris and Goldman and never took calculus (I did take a stats class in college designed for folks who hadn't taken calc).

I'd like to really build my quant skills in grad school and am willing to study hard for the next five months before it begins so I can be a step ahead and possibly take the more advanced tracks.

What would anybody who knows something about MPP programs recommend studying? Is working my way through a full college calc textbook worth it? Or is it more important to just build a familiarity with calculus and then focus on more advanced econ/stats?

I agree that HappyGoLukky should get more real work experience before he applies for MPA/MPP programs.  Teach for America or AmeriCorps could be a good fit.
 
He has a fairly good GRE Math score for the programs that he is applying to but it is critical that he improves his GRE Verbal score.
 
I wouldn't list all of my club memberships like that but I disagree with invicta that you may clash with typical public policy professors.  I don't get that impression at all.
 
HappyGoLukky, have you taken any economics/quantitative courses in college?

Yes, I have taken Economics: an introductory course and received an A,  Statistics 201 and received a C, and Intro to calc my very first semester and received a B- .
 
This Fall I am taking a Public Budgeting course, intermediate microeconomics, and also a statistics regression modeling class. I believe that if I do well enough this fall (my final undergrad semester) that I will have a legit shot

People don't like considering Tier 2 schools for professional programs because they are not as good and sometimes they are not worth the investment.  Most MPA master's degree holders don't make a lot of money (at least right away).  Why spend over $40,000 in a second-tier program that probably won't land you a job?
 
American University is a Tier 2 program so HomeGrown gave it a shot.
 
I think with the exception of his exceptionally low GPA and a low GRE Writing score, HomeGrown has a fairly competitive application.  He went to an Ivy League school has a great GRE Verbal score, a good GRE Math score (158 is around the top 75th percentile), and some work experience.

I also doubt the veracity of your point on legacies.  Legacies are a big deal for colleges but they rarely matter for graduate school (unless your family is on the board of the university or has a building named after them).

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you feel the need to reply with a tier two comment. As you said, there are too many variables at play. People here are trying to help. You're offering nothing but condescension. 
 
HG, much of what you can do to improve your chances has already been mentioned. That said, also try reaching out to these schools and ask about folks that can give you a gauge on your chances to get in to their school. 

I think Charlotte's idea is excellent. A lateral transition using OPs skills in the IR arena is very cool and very possible.

To the people protesting against JAubrey and I: I think you are confusing getting into a security studies graduate program, and actually having a shot at a career in the field.

I have no doubt the OP is passionate, intelligent, etc. and could probably get into a second or third tier SS program based on those attributes, despite the lack of experience.

The issue is getting a job after that degree. And it simply isn't going to happen for someone with zero work experience in the field, coming from a not very good program. Even for aforementioned SSP and peer-school grads, it probably won't happen without relevant work experience. Which is where the age thing comes in; while late 20s isn't old in the grand scheme of things, is old to be working full-time unpaid internships or shuffling papers at a think tank's front desk, which are quasi-mandatory steps most people take to break into defense studies. I mean, if OP is truly dedicated I guess she could try... but I don't know that would financially swing either with grad school loans or with the bills (car? spouse? kids?) many people accumulate in their 30s.

No matter how supportive people want to be, it is a disservice to OP to pretend that a MA (low-ranking to boot) can somehow overcome the otherwise total lack of academic or professional experience, and walk into a DoD or IC job. That is completely ludicrous, and suggesting otherwise indicates an unfamiliarity with the situation.

Honestly, if OP is honestly and truly 100% committed to working in defense/intelligence analysis, joining the military would be the best option.

With no academic or professional background in anything international affairs related, and being a relatively advanced age, trying to start the sort of IR career you mentioned is very unlikely to be successful.

I don't think you would be competitive for most decent IR grad schools. Even if you did get into one, you might be in an even worse employment situation upon graduation. Organizations generally don't hire people in their 30s with a masters degree for entry level positions, which is the level you would need to go in on (given the aforementioned lack of academic or professional experience).

There also is far more supply of people wanting to work in international relations than there are jobs (as it is a relatively attractive profession). Even for people who majored in such things in college, I would say it is the norm to have to work some unpaid internships and some pretty low level jobs for a few years, get a masters from a good school, and only then start to work on things that are actually the sort of cool stuff people envision as being IR (the stuff I assume you thought about sitting in the WW2 bunkers). So the overall timeline to get a career actually established is about 6-8 years. I don't think that's desirable or doable for your situation.

If we're talking intelligence and strategy, then there are even higher barriers to entry, since the majority of the jobs in the field are with the federal government. Security clearance requirements, cumbersome hiring process, and government budget cuts = take everything I just said and multiply it.

Lastly, this is a bad idea ESPECIALLY since you are talking about going to grad school to try to make this career switch. Paying off big student loans will fuck with your life in so many ways, and could make working jobs below a certain salary threshold financially impossible (which rules out the sort of jobs you have to initially take to get established in IR).

Apologies for splashing cold water in your face, but I think it's needed.

I feel bad for you, but you along with some people in this thread are coming off as entitled. To be blunt, you have a bad GPA, sub-par recommendations, not the most relevant or impressive work experience, and a mediocre GRE quant score and you feel bad that you get rejected everywhere? This was the most probable outcome. I agree that you need to let go of your ego and follow the advice right above me.
 
And Destine, you should have known that applying with zero work experience was pretty much the kiss of death. Of course people around you are going to tell you what you want to hear, and you really can't believe anyone would be a shoe in at a competitive school like Harvard.

Ok guys, I have some updated info for you guys, what er my chances now  :
 
 
Undergraduate institution: University of Tennessee-Knoxville

Undergraduate GPA: 3.25 (One semester left with mostly policy classes on my final schedule)

Undergraduate Majors: B.A. Recreation/ Sport Mgmt with Business Minor
 
GRE Quantitative Score: 158 practice test (74th percentile)
GRE Verbal Score: 155 (64th percentile) WILL IMPROVE
GRE AW Score: Graded myself so N/A but I believe I will get a 4.5+
Taking it this summer, but I am generally a good test taker
 
Years Out of Undergrad: Plan to go straight through (internships every summer of course) I graduate in fall so technically 8months out of school if admitted
Years of Work Experience: No full-time experience but have been employed since I was sixteen

Describe Relevant Work Experience:
Currently interning as the Resource Development and Grants Intern for the Maryland-National Capital Park Planning Commission for 3 months this summer. So far I have research funding opportunities, and began working on grant proposals. This is the #1 Parks and Rec Agency in the country. This experience is especially unique because I am housed in-office with park planners, landscape architects, division chiefs, deputy directors etc. They have allowed to sit in on their meetings and have invited me to lunch to give me a truly holistic experience. I am literally seeing from every angle how this Quasi-public government agency is operating, from the ground on up. We serve over 2 million people between two counties and the northern DC area. This has really inspired me to pursue the dual MUP degree (even though it is park planning, the framework is generally similar).
 
Interned for the Lansing,MI Dept of Parks and Recreation (part of mayor's office) and organized city wide track events, fourth of July festival, supervised summer camp counselors,etc. I Also wrote a grant for them that was approved for $6,000 from Jackson National Life Mortgage. This grant required me to do budget analysis and ended up saving the department's scholarship program so that low-income kids could continue participate in programming. Also garnered sponsorships for upcoming activities guide
 
Facilities manager for the RecSports Division of Student life. Manage between four buildings and also supervise a full student staff under me. Startes as an entry-level employee and now hold the highest position an undergrad can have. I also personally evaluate my employees biannually.
 
Served as Pre-College Mentor for past two summers for a two week college institute for students from at-risk high schools in Knoxville
 
Languages: English (I am interested in domestic policy)
 
Activities:
Single undergraduate member of the RecSports Endowment Fund Committee
Member of Dean of College Of Ed, Health, Human Sciences' Advisory Board
Member of Mu Rho chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity Incorporated (Chapter of the Year 4x in a row)
Member of NIRSA and TIRSA
Member of NRPA (Attended 2012 Congress in Anaheim on my own funds)
Member of TRPA (Awarded $1,000 scholarship for leading student in field)
Member of ICMA
Member of Adidas Partners in Sports
Member of Phi Theta Sigma National Honor Society
 
Strength of LOR (be honest, describe the process, etc): Will recieve LOR's from top Chapter 13 Attorney in Detroit, Dean of my college, And Director of MNCPPC (one of the top Park/Rec Departments in nation). I am also in the process of founding an Out-of-State Student Association here at UTK.
Other: I aspire to become one of the leading officials for park/recreation development and land use in a large city (municipal) and maybe move on to a federal level. Because the fields are so closely related, if I am admitted into a dual MUP/MPA(MPP) program I will look into city and community management also. Michigan is my #1 not only bc I get in-state tuition but also because I would like to be involved/closely monitor the crucial redevelopment of downtown Detroit. Part of the reason I want to get my MPA or MPP is the diversity of the degree. I need to be further educated on quantitative strategies to determine things such as cost recovery, sustainibility, etc in order to make informed choices, especially because governments use tax-supported dollars (you cannot develop faster than you can recover).
 
I believe that my specific work and internship experience and ability to write grants will help me. Also, I do not volunteer very much because I work 20+ hours per week and fund myself. I also funded my own trip to the NRPA conference in Anaheim,CA from Knoxville (And will do the same for Houston this year). I also hope to get to Boston for the ICMA Conference. Lastly, I am a black male, if that helps.
 
My schools I will be applying to:
1.Michigan Ford MPP/ Taubman MUP
2.U of Washington Evans MPA/dual MUP
3.University of Maryland MPP
4.USC Price MPP/MUP
5. University of Wisconsin MPA/ maybe dual MUP)
Other possibilities (maybe 2 more schools): Texas A&M, Ohio State, Rutgers
 
Do I have a realistic chance of getting in? If so, what are my chances of gaining any funding? (I will do anything from being a Teaching assistant, research assistant,etc.)I have about four months to get my application stronger so any suggestions are great! Once again THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!

I couldn't agree more. Like the OP, I was accepted to SAIS for this fall with definitely unrepresentative (read: relatively low) GRE and GPA scores. You just need to find the narrative which connects your undergrad work, work experience, and extracurriculars in a coherent way. Send a brief, exploratory note to a professor or two explaining how you read X online about his work and how you're interested in X as well. You might have to prod to get an answer, but you're building a relationship with someone "on the inside", so to speak, and you can begin to get a sense of the personalities you will deal with. My scores nearly did me in - I know from talking with a professor afterwards - so don't assume this means you'll waltz in because your personal statement shines.

However, unlike the OP, I've decided to not go to SAIS. I don't know how much the "significant funding" he received was, but like him I received a fair amount of fellowship money. Keep in mind 70 to 75% of incoming students receive NO funding at all, and second year funding if you didn't get it the first (from what I've heard) is unlikely, barring academic superstardom. 1 year at SAIS is estimated around $58,000, living costs included. I would be in debt to the tune of $60 - 70,000, which is absolute madness for someone committed to work in the nonprofit sector.

So here are two unsolicited points of advice which, like all of the advice on this board, you should take with a huge grain of salt.

-Whether you are a strong or relatively weak candidate, PLEASE LOOK BEYOND the 8 or 10 schools that are mentioned the most on these boards. If you have a strong sense of your interests (which I hope you do, considering you're looking at graduate school?), there are definitely at least some schools outside the usual suspects that you would be equally (or more) happy. Most likely, they would offer better funding and leave you equally prepared for your career.

-Funding matters, more than you'd like to think. I was quite naive about this, but I suspect I'm not alone. I graduated debt free from undergrad, thanks to my dad. Getting into SAIS, especially considering my less than stellar academics, seemed like a dream come true. However, I started crunching the numbers on debt more realistically.Which, I know, I should have done in the beginning.

Many of you work, or want to work, in the nonprofit field. Look at your expected salary upon graduation, think realistically about what you can earn over the course of your career, and then look at your debt load again. Use the loan calculators on FinAid, look at the new public service loan forgiveness program from the gov, and go into it with your eyes open. Does the debt still allow you to take low-paying, but highly satisfying work? If you imagine getting married or having kids down the line, will you have to delay this until you're more financially secure? I know, you worked so hard to get into a school, and it sucks when you have to take into account such mundane realities. But I realized that debt would constrain my options in ways I do not consider pleasant at all.

Some people will casually toss off their expected debt load numbers and expect nothing but glory from their degree. I slowly realized that I didn't want to live with a sling of debt around my neck for the next 10 to 30 years, and am taking another year to work and really look for something more reasonably priced.

Ok, so this turned into a tangential rant, but hey.

The boards should only be a starting point and an occasional reference. Talk to people with similar career interests, with people who are 10 years down the line. One of my favorite people went to SAIS - I only learned recently that his parents paid for the whole thing.

Hello,

I haven't checked this site or ones like it for a long time but I wanted to share my experience with those who are applying to top IR programs. Despite my GPA (2.6) I have been accepted at the SAIS M.A program to start in September. I have also received significant funding to complete my studies. If you are like me and have a less than spectacular (make that horrendous) grade point average DO NOT GO TO BOARDS LIKE THESE FOR ADVICE. I cannot stress this enough. There are plenty of paths to the top and you have to remember that not all of them include having a spectacular GPA. If you look at applicant advice websites such as this one, you will become convinced that the Adcomms will laughingly shred your application and use it for toilet paper.

I stopped looking at these sites a while ago as it was too disheartening to listen to the preening windbags and their fatuous obsessions with the smaller things in life. Instead, I decided to hunker down and follow my own path, not the received wisdom that is so often espoused on the internet.

So stay focused, keep the faith and steer clear of the herd. You might just end up getting into the program you desire.

A little bit more about me:
Languages: Some french and spanish (nothing spectacular, certainly not fluent)
Work experience: (3 years, some international development in Latin America)
GRE: 710V 720Q
GPA: 2.7
Volunteer: don't believe in it, so none
Balls: made of steel
Extra courses in basic economics and stats

Now sign off this site and go and live your life. You will thank me later

I agree with orang_orang......when i first found this forum I was pretty discouraged after reading most of the posts here....It seems the only people who post on this site only talk about the top top tier policy schools like HKS, WWS, etc etc....over and over again....Not only that but it seems like everyone here has tons of volunteer/internship experience at big name places and have 3.7+ GPAs.......After about two or three weeks of being insecure about my own accomplishments and my chances at getting into grad schools I started to put this site and the people on it into perspective and found that the advice on this site needs to be taken with a grain of salt.....there is some useful and interesting info on here, but i find that ignoring the discussions about top tier schools is best most of the time.

I wish there were more people on this site who talked about great public policy schools that aren't quite the top tier schools...for instance, reading this site you'd have no idea that Arizona State, Florida State, and Ohio State's public policy schools are all highly ranked....Even schools one might dismiss like CUNY-Barach is a fairly high ranked program.....So i'd encourage anyone reading this thread with a not-so-great-GPA to research schools that fit your interests, budget, location, goals, and personality...

and if you're an unregistered person browsing this site worried about jumping in because you're intimidated by all the talk of big name schools, I say start a thread of your own explaining your interest in public policy and schools that you're interested in, and don't be afraid to post your GPA either....i'd love to talk about schools others than the top tier ones with other future applicants with modest academic backgrounds.