Table
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Posts posted by Table
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0-3 seems like a high range. Maybe 0-1, with an occasional 2 or 3. Prestigious schools may be overrepresented, and maybe that's where you're from, idk. But if every university had 0-3 there would be thousands of applicants. And I don't think there are...but maybe. :-/
Just to clarify, if most schools have 0-1 applicants, most also have 0-3
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Nobody said contacting the graduate school is a bad idea. I can assure you that I have it on good authority that I'm not barking up the wrong tree. But I'm not going to name names on a forum like this.
Not asking you to name names, but could you elaborate a little on the information you received? Did someone tell you that the best way to pursue a refund was through faculty?
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I did not mean to suggest that people who wish to remain anonymous are having "paranoid fantasies", and sorry if my post comes across that way. Still, I am wondering who could possibly identify someone by knowing their undergraduate institution and that they intend to apply to graduate school.
Graduate school in philosophy, that is. Maybe I'm way off, but I would guess most departments have 0-3 undergrads applying to philosophy phd programs. If I knew someone from school X was applying and saw someone from school X post here, I would think it was reasonably likely that they were the same person, because I just don't think there are that many people applying. If I saw they had the same interests I would think they were probably the same person.
I don't really think there would actually be tangible consequences, I would just not especially like it.
I should mention that someone has pretty intensively searched for information about me before, and they found (and read) a lot of posts by someone that they thought was me. It wasn't, so at the time I thought it was just funny, but it's probably made me a bit more cautious.
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I'm a little confused. I'm having trouble picturing what negative consequences a failure of anonymity would produce. There doesn't seem to be much material in these forums which an adcom, even if they saw it, could use to infer much about the candidate.
Is it just the fact that with anonymity nothing could possibly go wrong? Or am I missing some scenario here that would influence admissions.
I wonder this every time that somebody brings up anonymity. I'm also failing to see how giving your undergrad institution will make it immediately obvious to the world who you are. I suppose that people are worried about being identified by adcoms, but I find it hard to believe that adcoms are taking the time to link up gradcafe usernames with their applicant pool.
I imagine that adcoms, if they want to get 'dirt' on their applicants, are using Google to find any relevant information about the name.
I don't think it would be "immediately obvious to the world" who I am. I think I would be identifiable to people who know a bit about me.
Not sure why people seem to think fear about impacting admissions is the only reason someone might want to be anonymous… No, I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to link gradcafe usernames to applicants. No, I don't think anything I've said here would impact admissions.
I'd like to avoid someone I don't know well coming across my posts, inferring it's me, and reading everything I've posted out of curiosity. It wouldn't be a big deal, but I'd rather avoid it. Not because I have paranoid fantasies, but because I'm a generally private person. The same reasons, I think, most people prefer anonymity online in general.
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I'm not currently in school, so I don't really have a stake in remaining completely anonymous. While I understand the desire for total anonymity, I confess that I don't believe it is very helpful to say that you are willing to answer questions without providing the school you can answer questions about. Just my thought.
I agree that it would be more helpful if people would say the name of the school. I think for many of us, though, sharing where we were for undergrad would pretty much conclusively identify us. I'd rather remain a little anonymous. Like TheVineyard suggested, though, I'll message anyone I see is accepted to my school.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that people shouldn't pursue refunds. I definitely think everyone deserves a refund.
I do think it would probably be better to give it a month or so instead of pushing them now. Especially instead of going above the department now. I think the dept in all likelihood wants to refund people and hasn't gotten around to working it out. The administration is already at odds with them, I don't see any reason to stir that pot.
I also really doubt Leiter would want to put pressure on them at this point. I imagine he'd be more sympathetic in a month or two...
(I think you misunderstood the comment about the apps, ianfaircloud. It was that they weren't looking at apps, so we thought they should have time to deal with this)
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I'm at a school at least some people are applying to, will be happy to answer questions if I see anyone's accepted.
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Today Leiter said UT Austin was bad when he was there: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2014/01/colorados-philosophy-department-put-into-a-kind-of-receivership.html
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This is so helpful. Thanks. I'm going to follow up with the faculty with whom I emailed, and I'll post the result here. Would you please post any updates, too? If the school is going to drag its feet on this, I'm going to look for ways to apply some external pressure. Brian Leiter, for example, agrees that Boulder owes refunds. The last thing their department needs now is further embarrassment from refusing to give us what we're due.
Remember to keep in mind, though, that their chair is currently being replaced, etc. In the earlier threads someone pointed out that it's not like they're busy reading apps… but now we do know they've certainly had their hands full.
I'd give them some more time. To be honest, at this point, I don't really intend to pursue a refund.
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I'm also curious about this kind of information. I definitely plan on contacting grad students, particularly women grad students, at any program that admits me in order to ask about the climate, but I'd like all the info I can get!
I agree.
I'm honestly feeling kind of disheartened by the CU Boulder thing. Like maxhgns said, people always talk about "everybody knowing" about the bad departments. But it seems like multiple women here were planning on applying to Boulder and no one was warned.
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You're almost all prospectives. Were you aware of Boulder's problems?
No.
My letter-writers obviously all knew I was planning on applying there, and no one said anything about it to me. So I'd hope they also did not know...
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I'm also applying to USC, also got the email because my transcript was apparently put in a separate file.
The person I spoke with said that my file has been accessible to the department, but it would have been marked as incomplete. She said they "probably" looked at it anyway.
They found the transcript and say they'll have it merged with the rest of my app within the next 1-3 days.
They said the same thing to me. Seriously?
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I have a source at a top 20 school that gave me some insights into their admissions procedure. They print out all of the applications, divide them between the committee members according to subspecialty and then take turns throwing them down the stairs. The ones that land on the top 2 steps are admitted, the next 3 steps are wait listed, and all the applications beyond that are rejected. So no, it's not totally luck (ex. it has something to do with how heavy your file is, etc.) but luck is a factor.
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Back to the skeleton: I didn't know about the skeleton bit. I was clever - I ASKED. I found out. I was even more clever and asked to be given a chance to show them my skeleton sketching abilities. If I had done nothing, not asked, not requested, not probed, not established a rapport with my admissions adviser.. why.. none of that would have happened and I would have likely been flat out rejected for my ignorance of the "skeleton criteria."
I have no idea what is happening.
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What price range are you looking for?
Also any chance he also likes pencils?
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My advisor recently posted some thoughts about the scarcity of women in philosophy and how we might begin to ameliorate it. I'd be interested to hear thoughts about that here. It also includes a link to the wonderful opportunity that catwoman has pointed to.
I was completely surprised by this:
Stop treating us like sex objects. We know you usually can’t help it. It’s automatic, a product of evolution. But you can control it if you think hard enough about it. So, stop staring at our breasts when you talk to us. Stop discussing our butts when you think we can’t hear you. Treat us in a gender-neutral way.
?!?!!
Treating women like sex objects is not an automatic product of evolution. You can always help it.
I think Linda Shapiro's suggestion is a really good idea:
While these suggestions are helpful, we've had a lot of success with something quite simple: the chair sends letters congratulating the A-range students in our intro classes. A number of these students are prompted to take more philosophy classes, or even declare a major, by these letters (we know this anecdotally, because students often relate that the letter encouraged them). Many of these students are women. We've been doing this for about 4-5 years now. We currently have about 45% female minors, and about 34% female majors.
I think, for a variety of reasons, it's especially easy for young women to underestimate their performance in intro philosophy courses. I think having someone reach out to you to say you've done well can be hugely encouraging.
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In the comments here Schwitzgebel talks about thanking your letter-writers:
I think the best thanks is to keep in touch with your letter-writers. Let them know which schools accept you and (though it may seem embarrassing) which schools don't -- and ultimately where you end up going.
I myself have always felt a little embarrassed by, and not sure I could accept, large gifts. A group of students once gave me a $100 Barnes & Noble gift card. I didn't want to refuse, but also it didn't seem entirely appropriate. My compromise was to accept the card but also to inform them that I was simultaneously donating $100 to the UC Riverside Philosophy Club.
A small token, like the fancy chocolate bar you mention, doesn't seem inappropriate to me, exactly, though my reaction is ambivalent. I appreciate the gesture, but I also don't want to take anything of even small financial value from students. I'm similarly ambivalent about "thank you" cards. I appreciate the thought, but it doesn't seem necessary and a little bit corny.
One disappointing part of a teacher's career is this: We foster (or like to think we foster!) excellent students, we see them off, then never hear from them again. Every year there are a couple of students I'll never forget. Years later, I wonder where they'd ended up.
How about this, then, as the best thanks: Write a thank you note five years later. A much delayed thanks, but very meaningful!There's also a Leiter thread about it, where the consensus seems to favor notes. I think I'll probably just do that.
I was thinking I might give them small plants because I grow a lot of cuttings (and it's easy enough to throw a plant away if you don't want it). Unfortunately I had a rough gnat infestation, and I think gnats are probably a bad way to say thanks.BSG, what kind of pens does he collect?
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Why is it that there is always some one who questions the validity of the postings as they start to come up?
It is somewhat odd to me that people are really suspicious of submissions where's only one and then consider it verified once there's two. Couldn't you make 2 fake submissions just as easily?
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I can't help myself here...have you all seen this chronicle thread...you talking about muscular pecs reminded me for some reason, and I know it's totally off topic but it is incredible..
A highlight: "The thing is, the secretary, when she first saw me, slowly rose out of her seat, turned red in the face and began to massage herself inside her shirt."
Also only somewhat related: did anyone else see this thread of dfindley talking about his book with people? It's an amazing exchange.
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Respectfully, that's incorrect. All things considered, what is the average chance of being admitted to a program on your list of schools? If it's ten percent -- and I think that's not too far off (in my case) -- then you can calculate the chance of being shut out. The words 'all things considered' matter.
I'm surprised that you think the math doesn't tell us something meaningful about our chances. That's a shocking claim.
It's not that I think math in general can't tell us anything meaningful about our chances, it's that I think your math doesn't. I do not find this shocking, since you do not seem to know a great deal about statistics.
Your calculations do tell us something: a candidate's chance of being shut out if admissions were random (when they're not) and if they were independent (when they're not). Like Matt said, I think this tells us little about our actual individual chances.
Surely you agree that if one applies to the top 20 programs in philosophy, even the very strongest candidates likely have not much better than a ten percent average chance of admission. There's guessing involved here, but one's average chance of admission to each program can be roughly estimated. I think I'd be a fool to think my chances are much better than ten percent on average. And if that's the case, then the data is quite meaningful.
I don't agree.
Let's look at U. Chicago, since they detail their admissions process so nicely. They admit about 4% of applicants each year. In the first cut, seemingly based primarily on grades, GREs, and letters, the applicant pool is narrowed to 40 candidates. 10 of these 40 are ultimately admitted—so once you're past the first cut, there's a 25% chance you'll get in.
I think it's reasonable for the very strongest candidates to expect to survive the first cut at almost every school they apply to. If we assume every school is just like U. Chicago, that would mean they have a 25% chance of getting in at each school. If we assume independence, that would put the chance of getting shut out if you're one of the strongest candidates at around 6% if you apply to 10 schools and 1.3% if you apply to 15, not 35% and 21%, as you seem to think. That's a huge difference!
This is definitely not to say that you actually have a 6% chance of getting shut out if you're one of the very best applicants and apply to 10 schools. It just shows how dramatically these numbers can change if we seemingly reasonably change our assumptions.
- Edit_Undo and catwoman15
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I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and I think there's much truth to what you're saying. But I think it's an overstatement to say that we can't have meaningful data with regard to being shut out.
It's not that we can't have meaningful data re: being shut out, it's that we don't.
You're also assuming the events are independent… they're not.
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Anyone else get that email from UC Davis to check application, but no decision was at the link? All they told me is that they apparently don't have my transcript, but then they said that if my transcript was sent directly to the department (which mine was) then it wouldn't show up. Apparently the political science people (including my girlfriend) got accepted through the email...
It's probably worth emailing them about your transcript. (& I don't think it means much that decisions have been made for a different department, don't worry)
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MY STRIPES ARE GONE.
Writing samples discussed by Leiter
in Philosophy
Posted
The comment sent to Leiter is pretty bizarre. I'm glad the person sent it to him, though, so it could get the responses it is getting. This is presumably not the only person with weird misconceptions about MA programs.
I completely agree. There are disciplines where an MA is all but required to get in a quality phd program, and I would hate to see philosophy go in that direction.
This isn't anti-MA. I think MA programs a great for people who, like ianfaircloud brings up, come from weak undergraduate institutions or found philosophy late in their undergraduate career. But I think it would be really unfortunate if an MA became a necessary step toward getting a phd. I was disappointed to see that several of the comments on the Leiter thread seemed to favor this. I think philosophe's concerns are all good ones. And if it happened, remember, most of the people that apply straight to phd programs would be applying to MA programs. It would get much more competitive on the MA-level. And since MA spots are much less likely to be funded, that would probably mean many more people accumulating debt.
If departments were to rank applicants purely based on quality of writing sample, the highest-ranked applicants would probably be people who had solid undergrad phil educations and then also got MAs. If admissions committees didn't take time in philosophy into account, MAs would presumably become essentially mandatory. And if admissions committees are looking for the people with the most potential for their program, and not people who can produce the best philosophy now, it only makes sense to take the extent of an applicant's philosophy background into account when evaluating their writing sample. That doesn't mean just discount beautiful work from MA applicants; some people in MA programs don't really have more philosophy experience than others in BA programs.
This comment is kind of shocking to me. "Sometimes things aren't fair" is not a good response to a worry that a new trend may unfairly disadvantage certain groups. Trying not to have admissions standards that are disproportionately prohibitive to members of disadvantaged groups is not trying to "correct for histories-long woes of socio-economic discrimination." What?
"I think it's misdirected to be worried that the underprivileged are disadvantaged to become a philosophy professor. Everyone else is already enough disadvantaged." It's hard to become a philosophy professor, so there's no reason to worry if the standards especially disadvantage the underprivileged? What?
First, remember that 2 years can make a big difference to women in their early-30s who want to have biological children.
In addition to the time, though, doing an MA is a significant additional risk. You do an MA and then hopefully get into a phd program, and then hopefully finish, and then hopefully get a job. For people with little to no financial safety net, adding another layer of uncertainty is a big deal. Especially if doing an MA involves debt for most people, as it presumably would if MAs became essential required.
"Just a drop in the bucket" is still adding to the bucket.
I really don't see any "extreme generalization" in "one is more likely to be able to complete this 9 year task if one is male, single, not planning on having a family anytime soon, and from a middle class or higher family." It's easier to complete an economic-risk-intensive process if you're from a privileged background. It's easier to complete a time-intensive process if you don't have or want a family or wouldn't need to be a primary caregiver. These are pretty mundane facts.
And remember that philosophe was talking about MAs becoming essentially required. Right now, many people from elite undergraduate institutions and especially privileged backgrounds get into phd programs directly from their BAs. The makeup of MA students would change if almost everyone needed one.
(And uh even if philosophe had said "all MA students are wealthy white men!" or something… No, that would not be just as bad as saying something racist. Really not even close.)