Justin123

Unrealistic expectations=wanting a school to review my application. SO UNREALISTIC! What was I thinking?

Yeah... That's exactly what I said... That UWM is an unethical institution... Could you please stop inventing what I said? I said that I believe that the way the genetics department is managing the graduate admissions is unethical. I have no idea how you jumped from this to the idea that I'm calling an institution unethical.

By the way, I think that you should make a distinction between undergrads and grad students here. And I don't think that that's the sole reason they exist. Universities can also be seen as research institutes. However, research does not exist only for undergrads... That's absurd.

Why do I need to keep on repeating the same thing? I'm not stupid. I know that international students are more expensive. And I completely understand why there are less international students who get admitted. Please let me know how to write this differently so that people understand that it seems logical to me that there are less international students. Should I say MUCH less international students to make people feel better about it? Ok you got it, MUCH less international students. THAT IS NOT MY POINT. When I applied to Berkeley I knew that every year only 1-2 international students get admitted to the program I applied to (whereas 15 domestic students get admitted). I was aware that the UC schools have financial issues and that public schools are harder to get into for a PhD. It made me sad and all, but I still applied. I knew the chances were extremely low. I thought it was still worth trying. Got rejected. End of story. If UWM doesn't want to admit international students, then they should be open about it from the beginning. And if UWM has two pools and if those in one of them get "frequently" rejected without even being reviewed then it's NOT ok UNLESS they are open about this unfair procedure from the beginning. In my case, Berkeley was worth trying, but I don't think I would have applied to UWM. I would have saved my money to apply to another school (I applied to 8 schools because I didn't want to spend too much, but there were more than 8 schools that I liked...)

Because he is (as well as you and others) are making this thread about whether schools should accept international students or not.

You are basically against international students. You are ignoring all the advantages of having international students...

Can people here have just a little intellectual honesty? Where on Earth did you read me saying that universities should take all international students?

To be honest, I'm even more shocked by most of what I'm reading here than by what UWM did. Do I sense some xenophobia? Once again, I'm not whining about getting rejected from UWM. I don't care about this school anymore. I think that they have a great program and from what I heard it seems like a great school. But it was my last choice. I stopped caring the second I got an interview at one of the other schools I applied to. I wouldn't be upset if I got rejected after being reviewed. I'm upset that they kept on telling me "we'll send invites in two weeks" every two weeks and that they told me that my application would get reviewed only if the first phase didn't fill all the slots available. I didn't post my story on gradcafe out of anger for a school that rejected me. I posted this so that people know what happened. If people think that UWM's attitude is ok, then good for you and you should apply if the program seems to be a good fit. But it was important for me to let people know about it. I would condemn any sort of unethical attitude of a person, company or school, even though it's not going to change ANYTHING in my life.

That's the whole point. International students have to work harder to get into an American school. And universities invest money in us because we have something to offer. I'm glad you got to understand that... Why? If you come from a great university, have excellent grades, recommendation letters, research experience? I'm sorry but professors would fight to have you in their labs. You clearly have no idea how universities work (at least outside of the US).

And also, I never said that international students should be compared 1:1 with domestic students. Please show me where I said that. I just said that universities are interested in having top students regardless of where they come from... I didn't say that they are able to accept students regardless of where they come from and I didn't say that they should.

Of course universities care. They want hard-working students. This is part of "what you can do". And I'm not whining. I'm proud of my achievements. I am proud of having worked that hard. I'm not complaining about the procedure at all. I actually find it extremely rewarding to get accepted after such a hard and competitive admission process. All I am saying is that international students have to prove themselves even more... That was my whole point. Sorry you didn't get that...

It would only make sense that applicants who applied after the deadline are reviewed after the rest... As to the GPA/GRE cutoff and the preference to Biology degrees, universities always tell you that they review everything even though you have a low GPA or GRE and that they are happy to review people with different degrees. It is therefore unethical for them to throw the applications according to that because they told you they are going to review your application. I believe that universities say this because they need your money. A professor in my university used to be on the admission committee in a top tier school (I am not going to give more information because of obvious reasons). She told me that they throw out applications as soon as they arrive and that they do this to get money to spend more time on the other applications. She admitted that it is outrageous but that it was necessary... HOWEVER, I think that if you have a very low GPA and/or GRE, you are aware that you are taking a huge risk in sending your application to a top school because it is widely known that schools filter applications without even reading them. On the other hand, although international students are aware that their chances are extremely low (even though they have high GPA/GRE scores), we are not aware that some schools filter us out without even reviewing our applications and that's the whole point of my post. I wanted international students to know that they should be very careful. That UWM "frequently" does that...

This is quite offensive and it shows that you didn't think this through at all. Do you think that universities accept international students out of charity? Of course not. There's a rationale behind it. 1) A PhD means that you are a student, yes, but it also means that you work for a lab. So they are interested in having outstanding students regardless of where they come from. What gives a school its reputation is the research that happens there. This is why it is so important for them to spend money on PhD students. Don't forget that international students who get into American schools with a stipend and all, worked their asses off. I'm not saying that domestic students did not but I believe it's way more challenging for an international student. The GRE is super hard for a non native speaker. It's also challenging because Americans are used to standardized tests. All the rest is also very unusual for us. The SOP was a very "exotic" exercice for me. We had to learn about basically everything that has to do with American applications (what's a GPA, how to write a CV in an American style, why I should waive my right to read the recommendation letters etc.). All I'm saying is that schools know that if international students are able to have an excellent application, then it means something. At least it means, that they are EXTREMELY motivated. So they know its worth accepting a few international students. Once again, I don't think that domestic students are less deserving. I just think that international students have to prove themselves more in order to get accepted. 2) They want a diverse community. The same way that they don't want 100% straight male WASPs, they want international students because they studied in other countries, they did research in labs that have a different way of doing, they speak other languages, have a different scientific (and non-scientific) culture etc. They can therefore add something to the community. 3) Research is a very international thing. It's all about collaborations, going to seminars in different countries, interacting with people from around the world, doing a part of your career abroad etc. It only makes sense to have international PhD students as well.

Yes... Once again, I'm not complaining about the low admission rates for international students. All the schools I applied to accept much fewer international students.

It's not an international-student specific because if you are American and live abroad, it's the same scenario. Here's what they say on their website "Typically, we receive about 130-150 applications. About 65% of these applications are from domestic students and 35% from international students. Generally, we extend offers to about 20% of these applicants and 40-50% of the students receiving an offer decide to accept." They accept international students as long as they live in the US (or not too far).

Why should people who live outside the US be considered after those who live in the US? Imagine there's an American guy from a top American school who has a GPA of 4 and perfect GRE scores. This guy wanted to work in a lab in a foreign country before doing a PhD. Let's say that this guy found an internship at the Max Plank institute in Germany. So when this guy applies to UWM he puts his German address. However UWM will not even review his application if they are able to fill the slots with applicants who live in the US during the admission procedure. How is this fair? What a school (that doesn't have a lot of money) should do is invite those who aren't too far and interview via Skype the rest. And at the end of this process, offer admission to those they like. Just like Davis and other schools do...

Listen, Wisconsin Madison was not my dream school. To be honest, if I got accepted (which is by definition impossible because my application hasn't been reviewed), I would have chosen any of the other 7 schools I applied to. But if it was the only school that accepted me, I would have been very happy to attend (otherwise I wouldn't have applied...). I was very disappointed that I got rejected from Berkeley but you won't hear me criticize it. But that is NOT my point... Please read this sentence again: "Frequently, this first phase fills the slots available.". It means that "frequently" they don't even review the applications of those who live outside the US. This is what this sentence means. That's the outrageous thing here.

This is from another email: "All applicants both domestic and international who are close enough to interview are discussed first since required in-person interviews have very early deadlines in January and February."

I should have been clearer from the beginning. They do accept international students. But only if they live in the US...

Thank you :-) That is exactly what I tried to say...

I agree with what you are saying but that is not my point. It is totally ok to have separate pools for international students and Americans. I think that all schools do that. Yale sent two waves of invitations. One before Christmas for Americans and one after Christmas for international students. I am aware that international students cost more and I consider myself lucky to be fully funded for my PhD. I am really grateful for this opportunity. HOWEVER, what UWM did is not ok because they haven't even reviewed our applications. The fees that we pay are for the reviewing process. I'm ok with them reading my application and deciding that they'd rather invest their money on students who cost less or students who are better. That's the game. But that's not what they did. And about the within US borders thing. They don't mean international vs American students. I was told on the phone that the distinction has to do with the fees for the interview weekend. There were supposed to be 2 waves. One for those who live in the US or not too far because they can fly them in for the interview weekend without paying too much and those that live far from the US because they can't afford to fly us in (as was the case of UC Davis). They prioritized those who live in the US because they needed to plan the interview weekend. The problem is that there was not a 2nd wave like they told me on the phone and via email. They didn't even bother to look at our applications. How is this fair?

??? 1) I said students who live outside the US so it could be Americans too... 2) If they serve international citizens second, they should write it on their website. 3) Berkeley and Davis are public schools as well. Berkeley rejected me but they were fair about it. They mentioned on their website that they can only take 1 international student per year to this program. They rejected me at the same time as everybody else. UC Davis told me from the beginning that they didn't have money to fly me in. Nothing wrong about that as long as they warn us first. 4) The problem with UWM is that they weren't honest at all.

Hi everybody! I promised to myself to let students who live outside the US know about the way Wisconsin Madison treated me last year. Here's the story: I applied to the Genetics program. My BS GPA is >3.7 and my MS GPA is >3.8. GRE scores: 93 for both the verbal and the quantitative sections and 54 for the AW. TOEFL: 106. According to UWM's website, it says (or at least it used to say) that if we have GPA>3.5 and a percentile >90 on at least two sections, then we'll most likely get an interview. Soooo as most of you will soon realize, the week before Christmas is one of the most stressful ones because some schools send invitations as early as that. On gradcafe I saw that some people got invitations to UWM during that week so I wouldn't stop refreshing my inbox. But nothing... So a few days later, I was almost sure that I got rejected. However, I wanted to be 100% sure, so I called the university. I was told that applicants who live outside of the US (internationals or Americans) still hadn't been reviewed and that we'd know around mid-January. But still nothing mid-January... So I asked them again and I was told that it was going to be late January. Then guess what? Late January I was told that it was going to be beginning of February. I sent an email beginning of February and here's the reply: Hi X, Thank you for your patience. We complete reviews, interviews, and admissions for applicants within the U.S. borders first. We then review external applicants. Frequently, this first phase fills the slots available. I will email you when a decision is made. Thank you for your interest in our program. X This is honestly the most outrageous thing ever. Those who live outside the "US borders" basically don't stand a chance. However, we pay the same application fees (+the fees to send the GRE scores, TOEFL scores, and transcripts) as everybody else. We had to deal with the application procedure like everybody else and we had the same deadline. However, we are considered as second-class applicants. And it's not like they warned us... Basically, I consider it to be theft. They stole my money and wasted my time. They didn't plan to review these applications in the first place. We are directly thrown away or in best case scenario, they keep our applications in case they have some miraculous slots available. So if you live outside the US, DO NOT apply to this school. You are just going to waste your money and time. As to those of you who live in the US, think about it: do you want to go to a school that has such an unfair admission procedure? I wish I was warned about this by previous applicants and it was important for me to let you guys know about it. A school shouldn't be allowed to get away such unfair policies. Anyway, if some of you need advice for your applications, don't hesitate to send me a message. I am happy to help. Good luck to all of you!

Best: Yale (super super nice on the phone+emails), Cold Spring Harbor (very nice and all, but I didn't contact them before I got an interview, so I don't know how they were before they sent out the interview), Davis (responded in less than an hour every time I contacted them (I had various problems with my application). I was really impressed) Worst: MIT (didn't reply to any of my emails, didn't pick up the phone and I really hated their application website)

So who's going tomorrow?