JerryLandis

"My God, I've heard of many Chinese and Indian students who score well above the 90th percentile and probably have a much more limited understanding of English than any domestic student taking the exam." That simply suggests to me that the exam doesn't really test one's understanding of the English language, but the ability to memorize a list of definitions.

Requiring two standardized tests instead of one does not imply that a department has "lower standards" of admission, simply that they have different requirements. Oh, and Glasses, I am a she. Concerning my "made up numbers," I can tell you that they are certainly not made up. I gave you the source of all the numbers I mentioned, and explained exactly how I came to my calculations, so to say that I pulled my point out of thin air is simply untrue. Yes, one should take into account the likelihood that some of the Yale applicants used their "free" report pass to cover the expense of sending the score. However, if we are really to believe it costs ETS a considerable amount to send scores in the first place (which I do not believe it really does), it's logical to assume that the cost of the "free" score report is actually included in the price of the actual test. Regardless, even if we were to assume that a large number of the applicants did apply using their free score report, we're still looking at thousands of dollars being paid for quite an insubstantial service. If we assume that half of the 10,400 applicants sent their scores to Yale as one of their free score reports, that still leaves ETS being paid almost $15,000 for each fortnightly disk shipment to Yale. I very much doubt it costs that much to send one disk of data to Connecticut. Of course, the "free score report" business makes it more difficult to arrive at a definite amount of money, but we should keep in mind that most grad school applicants seem to apply to more than 4 universities. I used every one of my free score reports the day I took my test, but I still had to pay to send scores to the other places I applied to, and technically I still paid to send my "free" scores, as part of my testing fee. I applied to 8 programs, and probably should have applied to more. That's $80 to ETS. Judging from the experience of my personal friends as well as the people who post on this board, it seems that most people applying to graduate programs apply to well over four places, many to over ten. Especially when competitive institutions like Yale are concerned, it seems reasonable to assume that most of their applicants are applying to several institutions, and as such are paying for several score reports to be sent. Whatever the case, even if an exact number is not possible to come by, a little bit of experimentation with the numbers makes it quite clear that ETS is overcharging people for the score sending service. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that either you're a) a really bored employee of ETS wiling away your time at work by belittling people online or actually an engineering student applying to grad school with the benefit of very high GRE scores but with no other impressive credentials. I'm sure I'll never know the truth, but it's fun to consider.

Well, it's a bit easier for me knowing that I won't be accepted, so I already know that "my" spot is going to someone else (if that spot is even being offered in this economically crappy year). I think that next year, I may end up going on the "current graduate students" page of my top choice and see if there's someone up there working with the people I'd like to work with. It would be interesting to see what their research topic might be. I definitely have a jealousy/entitlement complex going on, because I know that a lot of people with what I consider to be boring/superficial interests in my field will be considered before me for admission. Maybe they won't get in either, but I'm sure they'll be higher on the list. I've talked to people about their research interests (no one on this board, mind you) and they just sound so... cliche. However, the time those people didn't spend focusing intensely on the sub-field, they spent learning languages that I did not have the opportunity to study in my undergraduate program (seriously, I'm not making this up as an excuse - shoulda bought Rosetta stone!). So they will be viewed as more qualified candidates, who maybe just need to mature a bit in their research ideas, as is natural. So yes, when I see that someone has been accepted to a program I wanted to get into, I do get a little jealous and crazy in the head. But then I remember that these people beat out hundreds of other applicants, not just me, and they must really be smart cookies. Hopefully when I get into my top program after reapplying next year, I'll have the pleasure of being their colleague! ** Yes, I am aware that the above rant is really awful and makes me seem like a horrible person, but isn't that what this thread is all about?

They should sell tickets for this. To the OP: sure, a 4.0 isn't a good score. Although it's not horrible. I think it's very common for good writers to receive surprisingly low scores, because their creative and individualized writing style may not fit into the rubric of "good analytical writing" that the essay markers are looking for when they spend 45 seconds glancing at your essays. A lot of admissions folks seem to understand this. That doesn't mean the score can't hurt you, but I doubt it will hurt you anywhere near as much as a weak writing sample would. That said, I don't know what your scholarship applications entail. I've heard through the grapevine that GRE scores matter more where funding is concerned, presumably because it's not individual departments handling those matters, so they want more homogenized data. Are you applying to some kind of fellowship program unaffiliated with your specific university, or are you applying for something specific to the university? Either way, I'd suggest re-posting your question somewhere where it can be seen by people who have applied for the same scholarship or who attend that university. You may not get much useful feedback here since I think the GRE/GMAT section is more for people still preparing to take the test. Or people seeking to be entertained by seadub's wisdom. If it makes you feel any better, I failed the state writing test when I was in 4th grade, which according to state law meant that I could not go on to junior high the next year. Luckily I moved so I didn't have to retake it (although my teachers did appeal to have the test re-graded - don't remember what became of that). I don't remember what I wrote, but I do remember being in the advanced reading/writing group, and having my essays read aloud to the class as examples of good writing. So I have never let that state standardized test get me down! When it came to the GRE, I sat there and wrote the dumbest, simplest essay I could, making sure to use the cookie cutter structure they wanted, and I got a 5.5. Honestly, I think it was the most idiotic thing I've written in the past 10 years. I'm glad I got a good score since it's practical for application matters, but personally the score means nothing to me and I consider my graded essays to reflect my writing skills and faults much more accurately. I know that sympathy and good vibes weren't what you were seeking in posting your question, but I figured you might need some encouragement after being insulted by the above poster.

Considering that ETS sends the scores of many of its customers at one time to these departments, I really do not believe that the service costs so much. Let's take Yale for example, since I know from my rejection letter that their graduate school received over 10400 applications this year. Assuming all these people sent GRE scores, that means that ETS was paid $208,000 just to send score reports to Yale. Granted, I am sure that some of the applicants applied to only 4 departments, but I doubt that a majority of the score reports were free. Besides, I doubt the score reports are really "free," rather they are included in the price of the test. Now, considering that ETS apparently sends out score reports every two weeks, and the application period lasts between September and December (a 3.5 month period), that means that they sent scores to Yale 7 times. Taking into account that each score report costs $20 to send, that means that each time ETS sent a disc to Yale with a batch of scores on it, it cost $29,714. Sounds like a person's salary to me! I don't know how much ETS employees are paid, but judging from these basic calculations it seems that the simple act of sending one disc to a university can cover one employee's entire salary for a year (or 2 graduate student stipends). If it truly costs them that much to send scores out, how many employees do they have working for them? Now let's keep in mind that this $20 fee is simply for having one score sent. The costs of creating and administering the actual standardized test should be covered in the actual test fee. Concerning whether the GRE tests anything applicable to my field, I suppose you're right in that it kind of does. It tests my ability to study for a pointless test and to select the "best" answer from the 4 (or was it 5?) provided. I would assume that highly intelligent people are more likely to score well, and that extremely stupid people are more likely to score abominably. I also assume that most people of average to quite strong intelligence score somewhere in between. However, considering all the other supporting information we are required to include in our applications, I don't think it can really be all that useful in comparing applicants. In order to ascertain that I know how to write, admissions committees should be evaluating my writing sample and personal statement, not the AW score. And in order to confirm that I am a hard-working student, they should consult my GPA and letters of recommendation. Perhaps that requires a bit more work than just looking at a collection of 3 scores, but I'm sure that it's a much more effective method, not to mention that the $100+ application fee should cover them at least reading my application. My understanding of the way it works in history departments (according to the departments themselves no less!) is that GRE scores are generally ignored in favor of these other components, which is why it irks me that I still had to take the test. And seadub, you'll have to excuse me for not noticing the gender of someone I've never met in person. I didn't read Liszt's profile so I wasn't aware that he is a man. I have actually read every single point you have made, and have also responded to those points. I'm not repeating my argument mindlessly; I am re-stating it in slightly different, increasingly simpler ways so that it can be understood by one apparently mindless person.

Sorry I missed that. Regardless, just because one person's family has more money than another, that's no reason to justify ripping off one or the other. That sucks that Liszt is being ripped off like that, but just because she has "sucked it up" and paid the fees doesn't mean that it was right for ETS to rip her off in the first place. Maybe she agrees that the GRE is a useful way of measuring people's intelligence; maybe the skills it tests are actually applicable to her field. They are not applicable to mine, at least not enough to justify the price. I have repeated myself so many times simply because you seem incapable of understanding what I have to say, or, more accurately, unwilling. If you think it's acceptable to charge people $20 for a service that actually costs under 40 cents to perform, so be it. But for you to claim that I am a spoiled brat because I decide to voice my opinion against it is simply ridiculous. I have a right to an opinion, and a right to complain about being overcharged. Just because I am not living below the poverty line does not mean that I deserve to be ripped off, or that I have no right to complain about people cheating me out of my money. Lastly the reason I keep repeating myself is that I find your childish responses to be hilarious. Please keep them coming.

I personally know many other people who feel they have been ripped off. Many people who post on this board feel the same way (or I mean, are also aware of the fact, since it's not exactly a matter of opinion - we ARE being ripped off). Just because my family income is not under $5000 a year, as you randomly assume Liszt85's to be, does not mean that I deserve to be ripped off, and that I have no right to complain about it. Does ETS represent Robin Hood to you or something? I do recognize that it's my problem. I have sucked it up. I paid the egregious amount of money to take the pointless test and to have my scores sent. I sat there and wasted my time studying geometric formulas I'll never use, when I could have been doing relevant and necessary academic work. I also paid for a study book, since I was told that the test studies how well one has learned tricks and test-taking strategies, not one's actual intelligence or scholarly aptitude. I don't see why it's so outrageous that I may want to complain a little bit about it with people who have done the same thing. I'm not outside the ETS offices with a picket sign. I'm just stating my opinion amongst like-minded people, venting my frustrations a little. What kind of rule of thumb is it that when you get ripped off, you should just say "ah, well, I don't really deserve that money anyways" and congratulate the shameless profit hunters?

I don't know how relevant this is to the specific question, but overall I'd say yes. When I re-apply to PhD programs next year, I intend to apply to work with people whose interests aren't a perfect match for mine. I'll apply with the intention of doing something a little different from my ideal topic. Despite not being horribly specific, my intended research topic is one that only a small handful of people in the US (and only people at the very top programs) seem appropriate for, so in order to widen my range of places to apply to I'll also have to widen my range of possible interests. Like Peppermint Beatnik said, without the credentials it won't be possible for me to ever do the research I'd ideally like to do. So if the only possible way to get those credentials is to work for a while on a tangentially related subject, then that's just what I'll have to do. It's not like I'm not interested in other topics within my discipline, just that there's one topic I happen to find more interesting than others.

Frankly I can't say whether I think TOEFL does a good job of testing how well people can speak English, but I've never heard anyone complain about it before. Maybe it is a ripoff, and if that's the case, that's a real shame. I'm sorry you had to be ripped off twice. The fact that some people have to take extra tests does not make it acceptable to rip off everyone else who just has to take the GRE. As far as my discipline is concerned, being able to speak and understand English is far, far more important than being able to find the slope of a line in 30 seconds or to memorize hundreds of words. Sure, having an expansive vocabulary is important, but it's not really necessary to memorize words no one ever uses because in the offchance that some pompous twat did decide to use one of the more obscure GRE words, the grad student reading the article could simply look the word up in the dictionary and move along. Sure, work hard and you'll do well on the test. I understand that logic. But frankly, it's a complete waste of my time that I could be spending on actual academic work. Sure, I understand that it's not the grad school admissions folks' problem if I have to waste my time to take a test they may not even take into consideration. I recognize that that is just my problem and I'll just have to suck it up and move along. Still, I think I'm pretty justified in being annoyed about it, especially since (feeling like a broken record here) I am being ripped off in the process.

You said it yourself mate, just because I can afford something (i.e. something utterly useless) doesn't mean I should naturally be expected to pay for it. I don't consider myself to be a helpless victim, but the fact remains I am being ripped off. TOEFL is completely different because it is entirely reasonable to want to make sure an applicant's English is okay before accepting him/her.

This is hilarious. Sounds like someone has found a way to vent about their own application process, at the expense of RyanF's good name! I think this unclelurker fellow should be introduced to seadub, the angry person who likes to slander people over on the GRE/GMAT board. They'd probably get along great!

A Serious Man

Yeah, I see no reason to get annoyed at the OP. Being disappointed about not getting in is completely acceptable, and I definitely understand the impulse to take out all the frustration on a website full of strangers. Still, some results posts are really unnecessary and immature. People who think they have a right to admission in insanely competitive programs could do with a year of rejections, just to soften the ego a bit and get a lesson in humility! Most of us are facing bitter rejections here, and it doesn't really help to see individuals thinking they're so much better than everyone else that there can't possibly be more qualified students out there for their desired positions. In a way, I actually find such posts to be insulting because they suggest that everyone but them deserves to be rejected, and those being admitted do not deserve their acceptances.

The Squid and the Whale is great. I think the most common one would be Indiana Jones, as far as memorable, idealized portrayals of academia are concerned. A pet peeve of mine is when movie characters are made to be perfect students, despite never seeming to spend any time working. It's like being a perfect student is on some invisible checklist of characteristics of the perfect female, right alongside perfect hair, nice clothes and unrealistically expensive apartment. Although I consider myself to be not far from a great student, and I try to make myself look nice, frankly I look like shit when I'm in the academic zone (pjs, wet unbrushed hair, eyebrows in need of some plucking, etc.), and I sure as hell don't have time to sit around in coffee shops all day with my friends. When I initially wrote this down I was thinking specifically of Ashley Olsen's movie characters, but I think Ross from friends is also quite appropriate, as well as Marshall and Ted from How I Met Your Mother. Ross: How does a successful, obsessed paleontologist manage to rack up so many hours just hanging out? Marshall: I know law students tend to spend a lot of hours drinking, but I can't imagine a successful student at Columbia Law School would have enough time in the day to go on impromptu roadtrips halfway across the country for a slice of pizza, craft elaborate props and costumes for every social occasion, spend mealtimes languishing at the pub gossiping with friends, etc. And lastly Ted: I don't really believe that in just a couple of months, someone could singlehandedly design an entire skyscraper in their spare time. Also, I was not aware that simply being an architect for a couple years would qualify someone to walk into a job as a professor at Columbia University. When I watched those episodes, I felt sorry for professors of architecture out there in the world whose hard earned careers were trivialized by that story line! Okay, my rant is over. Sorry, no films, sadly I'm not intellectual enough for that!

I also preferred the ignorance. I now know that I'm going to be rejected by all 3 PhD programs I applied to because the results board shows that they have already contacted their accepted students and/or interviewees. And yet, the website and emails they send out say they will make decisions in early March. For me, what that really means is "we have already made our decisions, but won't bother sending out rejections until early March." Thanks. The good part about having access to this website is that I can predict my rejections using the results board, so that on the day that they actually arrive, I won't be disappointed and horribly upset. However, the only reason I'm so certain of my fate is that I've spent a good deal of time checking the results board for the past couple years, and trying to figure out the pattern of acceptance/rejection/waitlist dates for the places I have applied to. I know that many other departments/universities really do not send out decisions until March, or send out their acceptances in smaller groups rather than all at once. So just because some people have heard back from your desired department doesn't necessarily mean you won't be accepted.

Warned about what? I don't have any debt and never took out student loans.

Try getting into a creative hobby. Drawing, home improvement odds and ends, building a terrarium, making a scrapbook, whatever. That helped me during my break because it diverted my attention from sitting in front of the computer refreshing various windows.

I don't understand why I got a negative mark thing about that comment. Always the most random comments people don't like! And frankly, yes, the MAPSS does count as a Chicago admit. No one who doesn't study in the social sciences will know about its less impressive reputation, so therefore if they do accept me (God willing), I can run around claiming to have received a very prestigious acceptance. Frankly, I don't care about the whole "cash cow" stigma (aside from the expense it necessitates), I would just LOVE to move to Chicago.

I also just received the Chicago email and logged on here to see if everyone else had too. Looks like I'm not special, damnit! Anyways, that was nice of them to let us know exactly what's going on and what we should expect come March. Looking forward to an MAPSS admit!

If the person has always gotten by copying other people's work, how is the graduate program to know he's not as intelligent or hard-working as he looks on paper? I know what you mean about being wary of attending a place that seems to accept just anyone. But every university admits the occasional dud, no matter how selective the place may be. My undergrad institution is pretty competitive, but it has a far lower threshold of acceptance for international students because tuition is higher for those who are from outside the country. This means that in a typical class, you may get a sprinkling of extremely intelligent folk with both very intelligent and very dumb international students (usually Americans). Sure, sometimes it's frustrating to sit in a class with someone who seems to think that Africa is a country, one that exists solely for the purpose of requiring charity bakesales. But the occasional dud doesn't really have much of an effect overall on the quality of education provided. People who aren't really qualified to be there in the first place will not do well, and unless they comprise the majority of the student body, they won't have an effect on how your degree is received by future employers.

History is very useful in any cocktail party situation. And in Trivial Pursuit.

I was contacted on my actual email address to say that a department had emailed me at my high school address (which hasn't worked since I left high school) but was unable to reach me. I guess they had that email address on file from when I applied to take a class there in high school, since I lived just down the road from the university. Anyways, it would have been impossible for me to check that email address, but I guess that if they really need to contact you (unless it's a rejection), they'll figure it out and send the message to the correct address once you don't reply for a while.

I took the test once - the extra money was all for travel because I do not live in the United States, and the test is also more expensive outside the US. The application fees are annoying, but I understand that they are more or less necessary in order to pay those who work in admissions. I don't have student loans, and considering the economy and how hard it it is in general to get a decent paying job with a BA in history, I'd be grateful to receive the tiny stipend of a PhD student. That said, I am very fortunate not to be deep in debt right now. Which makes it all the more ridiculous that ETS preys on potential graduate students, because the people they are ripping off are likely to be dealing with the economic difficulties you listed above. I have no intentions of being rich, but that does not mean that I appreciate having to throw my money away on things like the GRE.

Your comment was in direct response to what I said. If being reasonable about money and wanting to keep the ~$500 it cost me to take the GRE makes me self-absorbed, so be it. It's MY money and I would prefer if people wouldn't rip ME off. How horrid!

No, I am not blaming ETS for forcing universities to require the GRE. Obviously I'm annoyed that departments that state pretty clear disinterest in the GRE still require it as a formality in their application. My understanding is that this is generally a requirement of the Graduate School, but that the individual history departments often don't care. I don't blame ETS for that inconsideration on the part of those schools, but I do blame ETS for ripping me off. It does not cost them $20 or $23 or whatever to send scores to a department. It does not cost them $12 to give out a score over the phone. It does not take 6 weeks to send a score to someone in the mail (that's how long my scores took to arrive - clearly they waited as long as they could before sending them, in the hopes that I would buckle and fork out the $12). It also does not cost $50 to reschedule someone's test date when there are plenty of free computers open on another day, or even later that same afternoon. Sure, ripping me off is legal, but it's still wrong and I'm still perfectly entitled to be pissed off about it. As far as engineering programs are concerned, I don't care because I do not study that subject. I study history, a field in which GRE scores are pretty much useless in determining a person's potential for success. I also don't care about the cable company, because I don't have cable, or even a TV for that matter. So no, they are not ripping me off. Fortunately I was given the choice not to buy into that. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to take the GRE in order to get into grad school. Lastly, I understand that my only option is to suck it up and take the exam, even though it's a complete waste of time and energy. But it pisses me off that I have to pay for the privilege of wasting my time.