JerryLandis

Don't know if your post was directed at me Armadillo, but I was discussing a specific discipline of PhD - my own! Not gonna rag on anyone else's though for fear of internet freakout argument.

But I think the issue here is that sitting at a desk all day reading old texts and arguing in academic journals with a couple people in your field (all the while, being read by a very small audience) does not have the same practical value that curing illness, sweeping the roads, and catching rats have. Whenever I sit and listen to someone read a paper, and then there is the question/answer discussion at the end, I often listen to the experts flinging around their apt, but obscure information in very serious tones and have a little laugh to myself. Sure, it's impressive, and I do consider it important for people to keep the information and dialogue alive, but it does often seem quite petty and silly to me. I definitely understand why people who work in more "practical" areas think that history is a useless subject, especially when that person might be the electrician who woke up at 7 to come here and fix my light switch, while I sit comfortably on my couch reading in my pyjamas. When I tell people I major in history they often say "Oh, how wonderful. We can learn so much from the past, since history always repeats itself." It's nice of them to say that, but frankly I don't think there is very much about the present that can be learned from a discussion of the early middle ages. I just study the period because I think it's interesting, i.e. for selfish reasons. I suppose I'll redeem myself to society eventually by teaching (a more "useful" activity), but as far as publishing is concerned I consider that a matter of personal self-advancement. Only a very small number of medievalists become elevated to the incredibly important, "eminent" status on the international level, and most of their discoveries and suggestions about the period are still completely unknown by anyone who is not himself a medievalist. I doubt I'll manage to become one of those people, so I can't imagine that the advancements I throw all my mental energy into will really be of any "use" or value to many people, let alone to society at large. Oh well - probably for the best though, because if I became a doctor I'd probably kill a lot of people by accident.

I think waiting for decisions is a lot like waking up with a hangover. You lie there, knowing you should get up and get some water, brush your teeth, etc., but the thought of getting up is too daunting. So you just stay in bed for a few hours, awake and miserable. Then when you finally get up it's the afternoon and you're pissed off at yourself for squandering the day. The lesson is: no matter how much you want to just sit around waiting for the decision notice, the best thing to do is to go off and do something else! Doing something to occupy your mind is a must. For most of us I guess that means doing work, but I find that creative hobbies are the best way to free yourself from the waiting worries. It's just mustering the will to do something in the first place that's so difficult when your mind's off in the clouds.

My parents demolished our sandbox (and the backyard with it) to build an addition on the house c.1993. I'd give anything to go back and play in it, but sadly I can't.

That's a great idea! I'd like to frame my rejection letters and put them up next to my framed degrees, just to be silly. Another thing that would be funny for a tenured professor would be just to frame your high school diploma and hang that up in your office, but not any of your other diplomas.

Yeah, my church makes profits of $94 million. What of it? There's a big difference between $0 and $94 million.

The person who fell asleep did not blame it on ETS, just said that she had a bad experience because she fell asleep. Some other people blamed ETS for what happened to them (i.e. not accepting their valid forms of ID and making them pay double to take the test), but this thread is about discussing bad personal experiences, not necessarily about bad policies of ETS in particular. The point made by the person who said it's a shame that GRE scores overshadow years of real performance and accomplishments made a valid point, in this context. Someone who performs excellently throughout his or her life may get unlucky and fall seriously ill not be able to sleep the night before their test. I personally went in not having slept the night before, because I was with my friends who had swine flu and they were up coughing all night. One of my friends almost fainted during her exam due to her illness. There was no option to reschedule, unless we wanted to pay for the test again (and book extra hostel nights and train tickets). So we took the test, and did alright but certainly not great. I'm sure all of our scores would have been a bit higher had we taken the test under normal circumstances. I can't afford to retake the GRE, so now there is the potential that my performance on that one test may determine my future, even though I've performed excellently on all my other academic requirements. So it is a valid concern. I did not say that it's specifically ETS's fault that I had a crappy experience, simply that the experience was crappy. However, they should give serious thought to revising their policies so that people who follow correct procedure and bring the appropriate documentation are not screwed when they show up for their tests.

...but it is a really prestigious school. One of those "you're not good enough for our PhD program, but if you give us money you can attend our MA program" kinda deals. I wish these places offered information about where their graduates end up going afterwords!

To say that a degree from Oxbridge is unimpressive because it is an elitist university with many wealthy students is pretty insulting to the OP. You could say the same thing about any of the Ivies. Despite what American stereotypes about the UK suggest, entrenched elitism is not what makes something "very British." As far as the masters programs go, I'm sure they are indeed easier to get into than the undergrad programs, but I'm sure it's at a similar level to the situation at Ivy MA programs. They say on their websites that you need a 2.1 to be accepted, but that is simply the minimum qualification they will consider, and I've heard from people who were accepted that the acceptance was conditional and required them to graduate with a first, which is certainly not an easy accomplishment. Having a degree from Oxford or Cambridge is impressive, but I'm sure that what really matters is your individual performance there. People from outside the US are admitted to PhD programs all the time at American universities. The grades may not transfer exactly, but I know that my UK university has a special chart for converting ones grades to the GPA format, and I would expect that your university probably has that as well considering its international standing. I'd venture to say that the greater hurdle will simply be that many departments seem less keen to take on international students in the current economic climate since they're more expensive. But I don't think that's directly related to you having attended Oxbridge. I would suggest trying to get your letters of recommendation from people who are well known in the field, which shouldn't be too hard coming from Oxford or Cambridge.

Maybe you should try something else for a while before applying again. I can't imagine how mentally exhausting, not to mention expensive, it must be to go through this 3 years in a row. I don't mean to suggest giving up, and I don't know what you're doing in the meantime (working, unemployed, career type position or minimum wage gig, etc.), but maybe taking some time to do something else will help boost your confidence and maybe improve your CV, plus save up some money. I know that when I had a look online for possible non-academic plan B opportunities, I found myself getting kind of excited about them and secretly hoping I did get rejected so I'd have an excuse to pursue that kind of stuff. Seems like doing something new and crazy would be a good way to get new ideas about what you'd like to do within your field (even if the job is totally unrelated - maybe leisurely reading would lead you in the direction of a new research proposal). Anyways, I'm not suggesting you give up on the PhD by any means, since it sounds like you're really committed to doing it. In any case, maybe there's something off in your SOP that you aren't aware of. Have you had anyone read it for you to give feedback? I don't know what math is like in terms of what is valued in an application. I gather you've completed an undergraduate degree but not a masters? Personally I'm hoping that doing an MA this coming year will make me a more desirable candidate when I reapply at PhD programs. Also, maybe your proposed interests aren't fashionable enough. I know that when I reapply, I intend to broaden the interests in my SOP according to different department strengths. Even though I really like my specific topic, I'll propose doing research in only tangentially related stuff, since that would be better than not getting to do any research at all. Again, I'm not sure how it works in math (every time I've spoken to a math major about their subject, the stuff they say blows my mind so much I don't have any idea what it is they actually do), and maybe you have already done this, but those are just a few suggestions from a fellow applicant.

I'm glad you brought this up, as I'm probably going to be facing a similar choice soon (assuming I do get admitted to the MA programs I applied to!). My choices are a little different. I think I have a good chance of being funded at one MA program, whereas the other one I would obviously have to pay for. The one with funding is not a well known institution, however it does offer many courses in my desired area that sound very interesting. The only downside is that I would not be working with well-known historians. If I were to attend this program, assuming I do get a graduate assistantship, would my application for PhD programs be viewed less favorably than if I attended the more expensive, more well-known, but equally subject-appropriate institution? My guess is no, because I will not be able to procure as impressive letters of recommendation, but I do wonder if the PhD admissions committees would allow my receipt of funding to compensate for the lack of brand name.

You continuously post inappropriate and intentionally hurtful comments here. Perhaps this is simply a manifestation of your application-related stress, but if you continue to behave this way in a social capacity you will find yourself alienated very quickly. I am not familiar with the news story you and MM were discussing, but it appears that you are simply using the apparently inappropriate nature of his comment to advance your own argument and prove him wrong. If you were indeed personally offended by what he said, the appropriate way to deal with the situation is to simply say that he crossed a line and that you were offended, not to call him "disgusting." Your attitude is extremely juvenile and unprofessional, and if you do not attempt to remedy that problem of yours, then I cannot see how you will ever be successful in any professional capacity. Making rash and unnecessary insults may hurt their recipients a little bit, but doing so will hurt you much more in the long run.

I wrote my thesis while applying. I had been looking forward to the chance to write it for years, but the application process totally ruined it for me. Instead of focusing all my attention on the thesis and on chasing down obscure loose ends in the research, I obsessed over my applications. A couple weeks ago, when I was feeling a bit more optimistic about my applications, I was having a very hard time getting any work done. But now that I pretty much know that my top choices are out of the question, I daydream a bit less and have been much more productive. Can't say which condition is better - fruitless optimism or productive sadness. My advice is to try not to get too caught up about it. If you aren't lucky with this year's round of applications, at least when you reapply again you'll have your thesis to use as a writing sample, and maybe even as a publication.

Seadub, your necessity to lash out at people for no reason is quite disturbing. Calling MM a "disgusting" person was inappropriate, offensive, and unsolicited. I don't think he intended to offend you with his comment, but if he did you could have responded more calmly. Considering how easily you feel compelled to hurl outrageous insults at people on this board, I wouldn't be surprised if you had some kind of serious anger management problem, which could lead to dangerous outbursts in real life. I'm not kidding about this or trying to be petty, but I really think you should consider seeking help with a psychologist or support group.

Medieval, just because you have completed a bachelors degree, finished two MA's with 4.0s, and published extensively in your field does not mean you are qualified for graduate school. Please get over yourself. If you can't get a 1400 on a standardized test, you're clearly inadequate.

So that makes it okay? Why should I have to cover the cost of someone else's test (as you insist I should with inflated score report prices) when the company is swimming in profits? I think it has been established quite clearly by the post above that the costs of ETS's services are not necessary for the satisfactory management and performance of the company. Using the example of a health insurance company to justify something just shows how weak your point is.

Everything Nicholas Cage has ever been in has been terrible, with the exception of Raising Arizona and Adaptation. Just my opinion.

Why would it be unfair to make the actual test more expensive? If it costs ETS $200 to administer the test, shouldn't people taking the test pay $200 instead of making those who choose to apply to more places have to shoulder the burden? Why should one person have to cover the costs of someone else's test?

Sorry if I went on a tangent. I didn't realize that this was a formal debate and that I am not allowed to express personal thoughts and ideas as I see fit. Liszt mentioned grade inflation, and I thought I'd comment about it in a way that illustrates that I'm not just some hyper-privileged idiot banking on my super-inflated GPA to get me into a grad school spot I don't deserve. And Seadub, I thought you'd appreciate the heartfelt story about how I sucked it up, pulled myself up by my bootstraps and did well despite unfavorable circumstances! That's what you love! Liszt, thanks for being reasonable. I too am getting a little tired of this discussion. Actually I'm not, because it's supplying me with ample procrastination material. However, I don't find you as entertaining to argue with because you actually make some valid points in your discussion.

"there might be hundreds of other deserving candidates who have more diverse interests than just keeping their GPAs intact" Those "diverse interests," if applicable, should come across elsewhere in the application, i.e. in the statement of purpose, or the cv. I don't see how GRE performance would really demonstrate one's achievement in these "diverse interests," unless your chosen field is high school mathematics or dictionary studies.

A university is more than a dispensary of books. My university doesn't even sell books. Your analogy makes no sense. Also, my professors do far more than simply explain material out of a textbook. I don't even have any textbooks. Textbooks aren't really suitable for teaching history past the high school level, so courses are rarely taught out of a book, and if they are, then get the hell out of that course! Seadub, the wild baseless comments I am making about ETS's costs being funded by the score reports are based on your comments. My point is that ETSs operational costs (research, facility rentals, etc.) should not be factored into the cost of sending a score report, which you repeatedly insist is so expensive because all of these maintenance costs are necessary. In essence, you have just agreed with me in declaring that it doesn't make sense for ETS's operational costs, those which have nothing to do with the sending of score reports, to be part of the cost of having a score report sent. Thanks for teaching me.

Believe me, I am fully aware of the problem of grade inflation, because it isn't as much of an issue here in the UK (at least not at the university level) and I'm bitter that the grade inflation taking place elsewhere devalues my GPA. All of my essays and exams are cross-marked by external examiners, people who are brought in from outside the university. So if a professor is too generous with his grading, not only does that one essay receive a lower mark, but ALL of the essays he marked are brought down by a certain amount. So it is in a professors best interest not to mark generously, as this may result in all of his students receiving a notch off their marks in his class. What this means is that my GPA is actually accurate, not inflated. However, I have "sucked it up" during my time at university and have still managed to pull off a GPA that is high even by grade-inflation standards. Maybe I'll get some respect from Seadub for that. Anyways, I expect my professors to explain in their letters of recommendation where I stand in the class, how I compare to other students, how good my work ethic is, etc., elements which can be used by admissions committees to confirm that my GPA is appropriate. Sure, there are cultural differences in the way letters of recommendation are written. However, admissions committees will be aware of that, since they receive loads of the things. I don't really see how adding another assessment tool to the mix, one that is far more arbitrary (based on the performance in one test, on one isolated day) and far less relevant than the others really fixes the problem. I don't think it's necessary, and if I were in charge of admissions I wouldn't use it. However, I know that's not the case, so too bad. Taking the test is one thing. Being ripped off in the process is quite another.

And who cares if the verbal section isn't a great indicator of your English ability? I do. If you want to get into a top English program, you have to do well on the verbal section. Period. Not really. It helps, but it's not absolutely necessary. Also, I don't want to get into a top English program. That's not my field. If you get <700 V, they are going to notice that and take it into serious consideration. Actually, many don't. Also, the average verbal score at every top program I applied to was below 700. So why bother questioning the legitimacy of the exam? Because this is a discussion forum. You aren't doing any potential English applicants any good by telling them that the GRE is dumb and that they shouldn't study their asses off for the Verbal section. I never told anyone that they shouldn't study, just that it's a shame that they should (and that they should have to pay for the privilege). I don't question a publishing company for charging me $14 for a book. But if I ordered a book from a publishing company, and they charged me $14 for the book and $20 for shipping (let's imagine this is a very lightweight book and the shipping should only cost a couple dollars), I'd be pretty annoyed. I already paid for the book, which means I already paid my share of the money that should go to the author, the editor, the publisher, and the printers. So why should I have to pay for all that stuff as part of the shipping cost? The only thing I should be paying for as part of the shipping cost is a) the postage and the labor involved in putting the book in the envelope, sealing it, writing my address on the envelope, and putting it in the mail (handling - a one minute job). I would expect the same in ordering my GRE score reports.

Liszt, I was referring to seadub, not you, when I made the comment about working for ETS. I just think it's funny that (s)he does not appear to have made any comments on this website except in the GRE/GMAT section, and most of those comments seem to be quite inflammatory and insulting. As far as ETS is concerned, paying for the simple service of having a score report sent should not involve paying the entire salary of all its employees. That should be part of the cost of the actual test. It would be very unfair for the overall expenses of the company to be sought through score report charges, since those paying for a larger number of score reports would be bearing a much larger financial burden than those paying for fewer score reports. The sending of scores is a specific service that really only requires the labor of a small number of people. The cost of creating and administering the test should be covered by the actual test fee. Yes, Yale is a university that attracts a larger number of applicants than other universities. However, it is still only one university. And yet, I have demonstrated how the sending of one fortnightly score report to that one individual university could pay for one employee's full yearly salary (or, if you're more conservative with your numbers and wish to assume that half the applicants send their scores for "free," half an employee's full yearly salary). That is only ONE disk sent to ONE university - and these are JUST the score report fees we're talking about here, not to mention the fees for the actual test. Considering that the cost of sending an individual's score report is miniscule - a fraction of 40 cents - that implies that for each score sent, over $19 (now $22) is being spent in labor costs. Any company that requires $19-22 in labor costs to add one person's information onto a disk really should not be trusted to test the intellectual capabilities of university applicants.

By "understanding of the English language" I am referring to reading comprehension, which the verbal section seeks to assess. Yes, for the individual students who do manage to score very highly on the verbal despite potentially not being fluent English speakers, it would suggest that they worked exceedingly hard to do well on the test. What that shows is that the test evaluates how well a person prepared for it (as well as how much money they were able to spend on test prep materials such as books, classes, etc. - I know that this is not necessary, but it can make a gigantic difference in a person's score). If academic stamina is what admissions committees are interested in hearing about, they can get that information by looking at a person's GPA and letters of recommendation.