Questions!

[quineonthevine]

Hi all,

I plan to apply either this coming year or the following one, depending on whether or not I have a strong writing sample by the end of this summer. I'm pretty familiar with how the application process works, I think, but I have a few questions that don't seem to have obvious answers. I might seem a bit neurotic about this stuff, but I figured I'd ask!

Here's some background about me: I spent two years in community college, earning straight A's, and transferred to UC Berkeley as a third year philosophy major. I'm in my fourth semester now, and I plan to stay another semester, to graduate at the end of 2018. My Berkeley GPA is a 3.81 currently (overall college GPA is a 3.93) - I got one B+ in a literature class, and I've earned either A-'s or A's in my philosophy classes. For what it's worth, my transcript has an upward trend at Berkeley: I got mostly A-'s when I started out here, but now I'm getting mostly A's. I have two semesters left, including this one, and I hope to keep it up. My AOI's are primarily in meaning (esp. Wittgenstein, the rule-following considerations, Kripke's skepticism of meaning), epistemology, mind, and metaethics, in that order. I'm also very interested in the history of analytic philosophy. (I'm sorry if this is annoying; I just want to explain my background explicitly.) I expect my letters of recommendation to be strong - they'll all be from senior faculty, at least, and I'm pretty close with them.

1) What counts as one's Philosophy GPA, or what is typically included in one's Philosophy GPA?

Our undergraduate adviser said my community college grades will basically count for nothing, and admission committees will only really care about my upper-division courses in the major. Presumably, then, my GPA in Philosophy shouldn't include grades I've earned in community college classes. Now, I've received an A in a lower-division symbolic logic class, which is in the major, and I've gotten an A in an upper-division philosophy course in the Classics department. Would those factor in? I'm using the latter class to satisfy an elective for my major, FWIW. It's the (seemingly nontrivial) difference between a 3.83 vs. a 3.87 major GPA.

2) Does it make sense to take an extra year to polish one's writing sample?

Nothing I've written so far is interesting enough to develop into a writing sample. But two of my courses this semester have term papers, both in fields I'm interested in, so one of them might be able to serve as a template for my writing sample. At the very least, I'd be able to spend a solid month or two over the summer to continue to develop my sample. But I also need to worry about the GRE, and I'd like to tailor my applications as much as I can to each of the departments I'll apply to. Having an extra year would allow me to really spread out that work, and make my writing sample as strong as possible. I'd have all of 2019 up to application season to have everything done. If I were to take an extra year, I'd sit in on courses for fun, and probably just work at a restaurant. What do you all think about taking time off, in general?

3) Is it a good idea to take grad seminars for credit?

I'm taking one now, and I'm really enjoying it. I was thinking of taking two next semester, but I'm worried about whether it'll impact my GPA. (I know it's not the end of the world if I don't get a great grade in one class, but still.) Does taking a bunch of grad seminars affect one's admission chances at all?

4) I've done two independent studies under different professors, but none of the details appear on my transcript (with the grad seminar I'm in currently, the same is so.) Do people usually put this sort of thing on their CV, or is there a place in the actual application to flesh out certain details of one's coursework (i.e. just the topic, name of professor, etc.)?

5) I know nobody should assume he/she will get an acceptance from a top school, but is it reasonable to apply only to top PhD programs, and them some top funded MA programs, given my record?

Mainly, I'm worried about losing job prospects the further down the rankings I'm willing to go. I'm confident my writing sample and my LOR's will be strong, and I expect my GPA to either stay where it is, or improve. If I remember correctly, fewer than half of UCLA's graduates landed a permanent position within 2-6 years, which is frankly terrifying. I'm totally willing to go to a strong (funded) MA program and reapply, though.

6) To what extend does it matter how much prestige one's letter writers have?

7) It's pretty difficult to get A's at UC Berkeley, compared to, say, Stanford. Is grade deflation/inflation taken into account, generally? Or is that the sort of thing that is contingent upon who is on each particular admission committee?

8) Does it matter much at all that I come from a PGR-ranked school?

9) Do extracurriculars matter much at all? I worked as a philosophy tutor last semester, and I have some other philosophy-related extracurriculars.

10) Should one's CV include only philosophy-related stuff?

-----------------
That's all I can think of for now. I'm mainly curious about the first five questions, 6-10 are more or less afterthoughts. Thanks!

Edited January 29, 2018 by quineonthevine

[Goonasabi]

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can take a shot at a couple. I'm sure the other people who hang around here will provide valuable insight. 

To start, it seems like you are set up very well for application season. You come from a great philosophy school and your GPA is good. I'll comment on some of your questions, and leave others to expand or tackle the ones I have missed.

1) The committee will take into account all philosophy classes you have taken, but will probably be more interested in your Berkeley classes. A 3.9 at Berkeley will be viewed favorably. They know the classes aren't cupcakes. Berkeley's reputation precedes them.

2) The writing sample question is tough. You don't want to be a perfectionist and never produce anything, but your writing sample is, after all, the most important part of your application. You want to spend the most time on it. So it really comes down to how confident you are about it. I produced my writing sample this semester, at the end of November (NOT RECOMMENDED!). I wish I had more time, but it is still a solid sample that will give me a good shot at PGR top-50 schools. Bottom line: take however much time you need, but make sure your writing sample is stellar.

5) If you produce a solid writing sample and do reasonably well on the GRE, I think you have a good shot. Your'e right, though, the job market for philosophy is just brutal. The better the school, the better shot you have at securing a position post-graduation. Many talented philosophers flounder in the job market. You should put a lot of weight on placement records. Also, I have a report on job placement records for philosophy. If you want that, email me. It's very useful. There are some surprises (some top schools not being great at placement, and some lesser known schools excelling). For example, Baylor University (which omits itself from considerations of PGR has a top-5 placement record--77 percent or something like that). But as far as getting into a good PhD program, I think you have a good shot. It wouldn't hurt, though, to mix in some top MA programs.

6) It's hard to tell for this question. I've heard stories like this one: Ernest Sosa wrote a Brown undergraduate a glowing recommendation (I think it was Ernest Sosa--but some Epistemology stud) saying that this student was the best they've had in decades. He was rejected from Northwestern. It's really hard to tell. I don't think they could hurt, only help. So I would feel good about that! Especially if your recommender is in your AOI. 

9) They do matter and are considered. Put everything you can that you think can help.

 

Hope that helps!

 

[Xia1]

I'll offer any insight I can that may not have been mentioned previously; and take it with a grain of salt, as I'm still in the application process myself! Much of this advice is either personal or gathered from individuals who have been through the process or are involved in the actual admissions themselves.

2) Since you will graduate next winter, I'd say if you start working on your applications now for next season, there's no real reason to take an extra year. If you treat your academics like a full time job, there's no reason you won't have enough time for prep by next winter. I started my writing sample during the summer before my senior year, took two semesters of independent study my senior year to work on it, submitted it as a thesis for some honors requirements, and then took a year off and worked on it more along with prepping for the GRE. During my time off school, I worked/am working 35+ hours a week and had plenty of time to make large revisions to my thesis. If you start now there's no reason you can't have a strong sample by 2019, especially since you'll stay in close contact with professors who can offer advice for revisions. Make no mistake about it, the writing sample is priority number 1 for applications. It's why 170/170 GREs don't guarantee admission to anywhere. A middling sample can't be made up for like middling letters or scores/grades.

3) Grad seminars with good grades always look nice on a transcript. As far as your worries about grades go, just follow this advice: get good grades  in all seriousness though, if you think they will lower your GPA below 3.8, don't take them. Otherwise, I'd take them, and try as hard as you can to get an A- or A.

4) My independent studies appeared on my CV, with when they occurred, who they were under, and what they produced.

5) I'd say only apply to places you are willing to go. If that includes only top 20 schools, so be it. An acceptance to an unranked school means nothing to you if you wouldn't actually like to attend. No shame in that at all. On top of that, I'm convinced anyone with a strong enough sample can make it just about anywhere as long they meet certain very general (but high) benchmarks, which you seem to do. The only advice I could give is prioritize schools strong in your AOI. So if you want to study phil of language, prefer CUNY to Princeton. Maybe. As far as your chances, I think you've definitely got a great start, with good GREs (~90th percentile?) great letters and an amazing sample, you'll definitely make for an above average applicant, though you'll find many above average applicants shut out from year to year. 

6) It's not clear. As long as that person can strongly, individualistically attest to your abilities, their relative fame can only help you. I personally would say that strong letters that single you out as brilliant from relatively unknown professors are vastly preferable to moderate letters from famous professors, U Chicago makes this clear on their page on their admissions process.

7) Most places seem to counteract grade inflation by checking against GRE scores to detect any warning signs, but perceived university difficulty definitely matters.

8) It can only help you, all else being perfect. However, my impression is that university pedigree can't save an application with a humdrum sample and letters.

9) I certainly would include it, but I have no idea if it matters.

10) I included a few non philosophy things on my CV, like volunteer work and where I've been when I'm not at school. Don't see how this really helps or hinders anyone though.

Best of luck!

[kretschmar]

With the same caveat others have given, that I am a current applicant myself –

2) I would advise against the year off for the writing sample, unless you have other reasons for taking a break. I left academics for a period, and found that the lost momentum was costly. It is perhaps counter-intuitive, but the structured context of school, however demanding, actually facilitates the application process. This is especially true if you can take independent study credit for your sample. Applying at large, distant from my institution and while working an irrelevant job, felt lonely and required great discipline. On the other hand, if you have any uncertainty about your graduate school direction, your intellectual self-concept, etc., time off can be golden. For instance, I would not be pursuing philosophy had I proceeded directly to graduate school in 2015.

4) You could reference your independent studies directly in your statement of purpose. Especially if those studies influenced your proposed research direction, you should explain that.

5) If you know you only want to go to a top-20, then do not apply to any "safety" PhD's below them. Instead, as you suggested and others have said, only apply to PhD's you want to attend, and make an MA your back-up route. The last thing you want is to be wedded to your own discontent for 5-9 years.

10) A faculty member at a top-15 program advised me to include on my CV activity that was not strictly philosophical, but that I considered relevant to my intellectual project. My statement of purpose expressed highly interdisciplinary interests; I thought it relevant to bolster my profile as "interdisciplinary/non-trad applicant" by detailing some of my work in music, languages, and literature on the CV. Was this a good idea? Jury's out.

No doubt some faculties – with whom, as far as I am concerned, there would be no value in working – are too narrow to consider a student's wider interests as relevant to philosophical inquiry. (This, of course, reflects the exceedingly insular quality of certain quarters in American philosophy.) If it's that direction you're headed, then I imagine you should not only leave "extra" items off your CV, but avoid such activities themselves!

[maxhgns]

14 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

1) What counts as one's Philosophy GPA, or what is typically included in one's Philosophy GPA?

Our undergraduate adviser said my community college grades will basically count for nothing, and admission committees will only really care about my upper-division courses in the major. Presumably, then, my GPA in Philosophy shouldn't include grades I've earned in community college classes. Now, I've received an A in a lower-division symbolic logic class, which is in the major, and I've gotten an A in an upper-division philosophy course in the Classics department. Would those factor in? I'm using the latter class to satisfy an elective for my major, FWIW. It's the (seemingly nontrivial) difference between a 3.83 vs. a 3.87 major GPA.

Your philosophy GPA is the GPA for every philosophy course you have taken. Your undergraduate advisor is right when they say that admissions committees mostly just care about the grades you get in your third- and fourth-year courses (i.e. 300+ level courses), but they have a look at those for themselves. It's separate from your GPA. When they ask for your philosophy GPA, they're not asking for your GPA from your last couple years.

 

14 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

2) Does it make sense to take an extra year to polish one's writing sample?

Nothing I've written so far is interesting enough to develop into a writing sample. But two of my courses this semester have term papers, both in fields I'm interested in, so one of them might be able to serve as a template for my writing sample. At the very least, I'd be able to spend a solid month or two over the summer to continue to develop my sample. But I also need to worry about the GRE, and I'd like to tailor my applications as much as I can to each of the departments I'll apply to. Having an extra year would allow me to really spread out that work, and make my writing sample as strong as possible. I'd have all of 2019 up to application season to have everything done. If I were to take an extra year, I'd sit in on courses for fun, and probably just work at a restaurant. What do you all think about taking time off, in general?

It can make sense to do that, but you have to decide whether it's worth the trouble. If your faculty advisor thinks your sample is good enough, then that's sufficient for a go at applications. Remember, too, that you don't just get one try at this. You can always apply again. Given that it's just about February, I'd say that you have more than enough time ahead of you to perform substantial revisions on your sample and re-learn your HS math for the GRE. I suspect that if you give yourself another year, your writing sample won't end up being all that much more polished than it would be anyway.

 

14 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

3) Is it a good idea to take grad seminars for credit?

I'm taking one now, and I'm really enjoying it. I was thinking of taking two next semester, but I'm worried about whether it'll impact my GPA. (I know it's not the end of the world if I don't get a great grade in one class, but still.) Does taking a bunch of grad seminars affect one's admission chances at all?

Yes--provided you do well in them. If you tank them or just do OK, then that's going to harm your application a little. What doing well in a grad seminar tells the committee is that you're capable of working and doing well at a level that approximates the grad level (since UGs in grad seminars are usually graded as such). And it gives you a taste of what it's like in there. But remember that the expectations are different and that, as an UG, it's not actually a seminar for you (it'll be up to you to keep up, rather than up to the teacher or the rest of the class to slow down if you're not caught up). If I were you, I'd take or sit in on one or two that were of interest, but I wouldn't overdo it.

 

14 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

4) I've done two independent studies under different professors, but none of the details appear on my transcript (with the grad seminar I'm in currently, the same is so.) Do people usually put this sort of thing on their CV, or is there a place in the actual application to flesh out certain details of one's coursework (i.e. just the topic, name of professor, etc.)?

As a graduate student newly on the job market, it's normal to have a list of graduate courses you took (that is: classes taken as a graduate student), and it would be normal to include independent studies on that list. As an UG, it's not normal to do that. I assume those classes show up as independent studies on your transcript, right? It's just that the transcript doesn't say what it was on? In that case, you can mention it in your statement of interest if you want, but otherwise forget about it.

 

14 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

5) I know nobody should assume he/she will get an acceptance from a top school, but is it reasonable to apply only to top PhD programs, and them some top funded MA programs, given my record?

Mainly, I'm worried about losing job prospects the further down the rankings I'm willing to go. I'm confident my writing sample and my LOR's will be strong, and I expect my GPA to either stay where it is, or improve. If I remember correctly, fewer than half of UCLA's graduates landed a permanent position within 2-6 years, which is frankly terrifying. I'm totally willing to go to a strong (funded) MA program and reapply, though.

It's reasonable, sure, but I wouldn't think about my applications that way. I'd apply to whatever the best programs are for my two prospective AOSes, and at least one prospective AOC. In your case, I guess that's philosophy of language and epistemology, modified perhaps by mind or metaphysics more generally. But determining which programs are the best isn't simply a matter of looking at the PGR; it's a matter of exhaustive research, and of finding the best set of supervisors you can for your interests. So by all means, start with the PGR's specialty rankings (forget the overall ranking for now; besides which, given those interests, it'll track fairly closely). But then read up on all the departments in that set of rankings. Find out what the faculty working in your areas of interest are working on. Find out who's cross-appointed where. Find out what ties exist between the philosophy department and departments that complement your interests (linguistics, cognitive science, etc.). If you're serious about philosophy of language as an AOS, then you should really be seeking out a university with a strong linguistics department, too. Find out what the progression requirements are, and compare them--try to determine whether you could reasonably complete them all in the time allotted. Look to see which programs have the strongest, most active colloquium schedules (that's a good way to figure out whether the department's rolling in money or tightening its belt). Look to see which departments will give you a few teaching opportunities without having you teach too much. Scour the graduate student profiles and CVs, and try to get a sense of what yours might look like when you get to their point.

As for jobs... look. Landing a job is not actually correlated with overall PGR rank. Landing a job at a PhD-granting institution, on the other hand,, does seem to be loosely correlated to rank--at least insofar as the top few departments are concerned. But here's the thing: nobody's chances of landing a job are good, not even graduates of top programs. Top programs do tend to get the flashier placements, but those bright successes obscure a struggling underclass of newly-minted PhDs. Prestige matters a lot more than it should, but it also matters a lot less than factors over which you have a fair bit of control: who your supervisors are, your publication record, your research agenda and future plans, your teaching experience, and your academic network. Your network is probably the most important factor here, because it's through that network that you get professionalized, make important contacts (for letters, grant and postdoc applications, etc.), and are offered CV-boosting opportunities. Your choice of supervisors is really, really important, because they're supposed to introduce you to their own networks and get you settled in.

I'll let you in on a secret. Well, it's not really a secret, but people often don't realize this in time, if ever: Name recognition matters in this discipline, but it's your name that needs to be recognized. Institutional prestige is really just a proxy. If committee members were to ask their friends in the relevant subfield to list the five or so best graduate students/new PhDs in the subfield, you want your name to come up on as many of those lists as possible. That will get you an interview (which is what your job-seeking goal really is). For publications, you're aiming for an R&R because outright acceptances are so very, very rare; for jobs, you're aiming for an interview for similar reasons. But that means you need to be pretty prolific as a graduate student--all over the conference circuit, well-published, and well-integrated into a broad professional network.

 

15 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

6) To what extend does it matter how much prestige one's letter writers have?

Not as much as everyone seems to think. It's obviously great if you have a letter from David Lewis saying you're the best undergraduate student he's ever seen (provided, of course, that he doesn't have a reputation for inflating his letters!). But most applicants don't have those kinds of letters, and most UG applicants are exceptionally poorly placed to even know whether their references are prestigious, or just how prestigious they are. Philosophical subfields are small, and there are some very well-known people who don't teach in fancy departments, or even at PhD-granting departments. You're not a very good judge of how well-connected your professors are.

The kind of letter that you actually want, anyway, is one that can speak directly to your abilities, and in a lot of detail. It doesn't really matter who those letters comes from (as long as they're philosophers, have a PhD, and are at least associates). What matters is their content. If David Lewis can't explain in detail why he thinks you're the best, his letter isn't worth much.

 

15 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

7) It's pretty difficult to get A's at UC Berkeley, compared to, say, Stanford. Is grade deflation/inflation taken into account, generally? Or is that the sort of thing that is contingent upon who is on each particular admission committee?

They'd have to be aware of the inflation, or at least believe it to be true. In my experience, UGs talk a lot about grade inflation, especially compared to their institutional rivals, but that's all it is: talk. I don't know that there's much evidence that it's true, or (even if it is!) that anybody outside the rivalry knows or cares about it. (The real exception is for UK students, whose grades are radically deflated--like, seriously. 60% is actually quite a good grade.)

Look: your grades barely matter. They matter only insofar as they're not bad, and won't rule you out. Getting lots of Bs or lower--especially later in your UG career--is not good. Beyond that, nobody really cares all that much.

 

15 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

8) Does it matter much at all that I come from a PGR-ranked school?

Yes, it matters. But again, not as much as people sometimes seem to think it does. What really matters is that you're a strong applicant coming out of a strong philosophy program at a legitimate university the committee has heard of and recognizes as a decent program. And it helps insofar as you've had access to opportunities and resources to which other applicants haven't had access. But PGRness doesn't really have anything to do with it; it's a measure of the prestige of PhD programs, not BA programs. An UG version of the PGR would be a very different ranking.

 

15 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

9) Do extracurriculars matter much at all? I worked as a philosophy tutor last semester, and I have some other philosophy-related extracurriculars.

A little, but not much. Any awards or scholarships you might have received matter more.

 

15 hours ago, quineonthevine said:

10) Should one's CV include only philosophy-related stuff?

No. Include any awards or scholarships you've received, any community-, department-, or university-level service you've performed, jobs you've had, any teaching experience you might have, that sort of stuff. Publications of any kind, if you have them (just be clear that they're not peer-reviewed and academic, if they aren't). Most of that will fall off your academic CV as you go along, but for now it's all pertinent enough.

[quineonthevine]

Excellent - thanks so much, everybody. Everything's more or less cleared up now. I can't respond to all of everybody's comments, but I read through all of it, and really appreciate the help! I also messaged you, @Goonasabi.

To clarify, @maxhgns - you emphasize that all philosophy classes count towards one Philosophy GPA. Does that include philosophy classes taught by other departments?

Also, one last question (11?): to what degree should one tailor his or her statement of purpose and/or application to each department? Thoughts on this are appreciated, although I know people who didn't tailor their applications at all, but still received a handful of acceptances.

Edited January 30, 2018 by quineonthevine

[Nichi]

Speaking only from my own experience:

4) Some applications had places to write in all of your classes. On those I put "Independent Study: Topic". On the others I didn't do anything. 

5) I don't know what you count as a "top school". I was told top 25 or top of a specialty or don't bother. I applied as such plus a fallback. I have heard the top ten or so tend to not accept many people who already have an MA. I haven't confirmed this, but if it's true, then straight out of undergrad may be your best shot.

6) Someone said make sure your writers are at least at the rank of associate. One of my writers was a post doc when I worked with him and an assistant professor (at a different school) when he wrote my letter. I also heard from one of the people at the schools I got into that his letter definitely helped me. 

8) I've noticed most of my classmates come from pretty good schools. Whether that's the name helping them or a better education than most schools afford or the ability that got them into a good UG continuing to a good grad program I don't know.

9) I listed my philosophy relate extracurriculars to show interest. I doubt it matters much. I have heard someone who climbs mountains listed some of the bigger ones he climbed and it helped because that level of persistence suggests the level of persistence needed to write a dissertation.

11) I tailored my statement to each department. Though my statement included "I am especially interested in the work of Professors X, Y, and Z," so using the same each statement for each school would have been odd.