Senior Thesis or Double Major

[woolfie]

Hey all, I was talking to a friend the other day about my grad app and she thought that, despite my stats of 640V 3.7 gpa being less than stellar, that I was a competitive candidate based on my sr. thesis and double major in English and Comparative Literature. She was trying to make me believe most people don't do senior theses and I don't know if I agree with her. I've been thinking that most people do that apply to grad school. So do you have one?

[JustChill]

I'm not in your field, but my undergrad advisor told me to not even think about grad school without doing a senior thesis first. So, I wrote it and I'm glad I did.

[Pamphilia]

I wrote an honors thesis, not least because I wanted to test how well doing serious research agreed with me. I don't think I could have made an informed decision about applying to grad school without having done it.

[tortola23]

I am coming from an honors college where everyone has to write a fourth-year thesis in order to graduate. I used the first chapter of mine as my writing sample for applications.

Bbut, I have not heard from a single one of my eight schools, so I am guessing that writing one isn't super impressive.

However, my undergraduate institution is also unconventional in that we have a "narrative evaluation system" (like Santa Cruz) instead of letter grades, we have no GPAs, we're extremely small, etc. I also transferred to this school, which makes my transcripts look odd being divided up b/w a very mainstream, well-known institution and then a tiny obscure (if highly ranked) one. [Anyone else have these kinds of undergrad anomalies?]

Realistically, I'd say that it doesn't matter whether you've written a thesis or not, especially if you have an excellent writing sample and/or publications to show them. I think they're looking at us as whole students, and we could be rejected or accepted for a variety of pretty arbitrary-sounding reasons depending on what they want from their future TA workforce and advisees.

[diehtc0ke]

I wrote a senior honors thesis but I didn't use any part of it as my writing sample because it was only tangentially related to the research I want to do in grad school. I took the opportunity to do something relatively different from the work I had been doing and so it made for something to mention in my SOP but that's about it.

[Belltolls]

I did an Honors Thesis and I'm pretty sure thats standard among Grad. school applicants, particularly in the Humanities. I wish it had been polished enough to use as my writing sample because I'm pretty sure thats why I'm striking out this round. Oh well!

[poco_puffs]

I come from a state school whose reputation revolves more around Agriculture and Engineering than English, and at no point during my education did anyone ever ask or suggest that I do an honors/senior thesis for English. I did, however, double major in English and History, and as a capstone of my History degree I had to complete a "seminar paper." In the English department, I just took my required course load + a ton of others and revamped my favorite paper from a relevant class for the writing sample.

None of my professors said anything negative about my qualifications going into the process (3.9 GPA, V 720, Q660 AW 5.0 Subject 660) and I even had a lot of compliments on the writing sample, so I was perhaps a little over-confident going into the process. Although I have one acceptance so far, I feel that I am on radio silence with the rest of the schools that I feel are a better fit and offer better prospects. I might be lagging behind the people who completed a senior thesis, who pushed harder for essay awards, who paid the fee to get into that Phi Beta Kappa whatsit organization that I always got the letters for but was TOO DAMN FOOL to chuck up $75 or whatever for it.

Coulda woulda shoulda.

[chaussettes]

I am doing a triple major in Comparative Literature, French and Linguistics and have not been given the impression that it will have a very significant positive impact on my application. I think it is more important to have a breadth and depth of coursework that shows you are informed and prepared for your proposed field of research, so that the fact of a double major is less important than the quality of the coursework that it brings with it. On the other hand, I have heard from a faculty advisor in Comp Lit that the senior thesis absolutely crucial for anyone applying to grad school, and that one of the first things that admissions looks for in applicants is whether or not they have done (or are doing) one.

[fara]

I wrote a thesis for the Honors College and for a departmental program, and I'm glad I did. Like diehtch0ke, though, I didn't use it for my writing sample because it was only partially related to what I wanted to do in grad school, and a new project gave me a big talking point.

I have a double major in English and Classics, and it must have pleased one or two people at the schools that accepted/wait-listed me because it's had a huge influence on my English work and interests, and I talked about it a lot. But since I also have a lot of rejections, I'm still convinced a lot of it comes down to whether or not somebody just plain old likes your writing sample and SOP.

[CountFosco]

I wrote an honors thesis, not least because I wanted to test how well doing serious research agreed with me. I don't think I could have made an informed decision about applying to grad school without having done it.

Same here - hence taking a year off (by the moment I started actually doing the writing, PhD deadlines had all passed for fall 2009).

I'm sorry to say this, but I think theses are more of a thing where you have to look at it more as you're hurt by not having one instead of helped by having one.

[chrissy88]

I am a double major in English Literature and History. Ironically enough, I had to write a thesis in the History Department to earn my degree, but not in the English Department. I wanted to write a lit thesis anyway, especially because I was applying to grad school. Since I had to also write a thesis to graduate from my Honors College, I decided to make this thesis my lit thesis. So by the time I graduate in May, I'm in the ridiculous situation of having a double major and two theses. I can't say this has helped me in applying to grad school, but it has made me have that childish sense of accomplishment.

In all honesty, after talking to my friends who attend universities throughout the country, theses really seem to be the result of a major in the humanities or participation in an honors program. In that respect, I'd imagine that many would have theses when applying to graduate school, but it would be the calibar of the work that allows you to stand out.

[mityak]

I did an Honors Thesis and I'm pretty sure thats standard among Grad. school applicants, particularly in the Humanities. I wish it had been polished enough to use as my writing sample because I'm pretty sure thats why I'm striking out this round. Oh well!

I feel your pain Belltolls. I wrote an honors thesis, but I should probably have taken more time to polish it. I'm 4 rejections for 8 apps. I praying for a waitlist of pity.

[Historiogaffe]

Hey all, I was talking to a friend the other day about my grad app and she thought that, despite my stats of 640V 3.7 gpa being less than stellar, that I was a competitive candidate based on my sr. thesis and double major in English and Comparative Literature. She was trying to make me believe most people don't do senior theses and I don't know if I agree with her. I've been thinking that most people do that apply to grad school. So do you have one?

I'm curious as to who told you 640V/3.7GPA is "less than stellar" as far as stats go. Most schools have a general recommendation of minimum 3.0/3.5, and 600V+. The highest standards I've heard of, from the top, Ivy-strewn bananas, have been 700V+ and 3.7+. And since adcoms tend to use stats as throwaway evaluators, I can't see yours doing you any harm. Common wisdom gleaned from the fine folks of this board, and other places: if your acceptances aren't meeting your expectations, it'll be the LORs, writing sample and especially SOP that need work. I sincerely doubt an extra 20 points on your GREs would make a huge difference either way, ditto .5 added onto your GPA.

I don't mean that to sound negative – I mean your stats sound fine. It may have been your choice in schools; you selected them to stay close to home, right? Perhaps your SOP didn't convince them you were a great fit? There are all kinds of things to revisit that will be more rewarding (and less tedious) to amp up than stats. When the GREs matter most – relatively – is for things like fellowships, etc.

To put the soapbox away and actually answer your question (sorry...!), I'm double majoring in English and medieval studies. I've done an independent research project for the latter, and will be doing an honours thesis for the former this coming year. As someone said above, I think I'm going to hold off on applications – at least to PhD programs – until I'm done that. Despite a resume sporting generally good-to-have things on it (research projects, taught seminar, assistantships), and a talent for standardised testing that will probably only ever be useful for the GRE (wish I could, like, unicycle, or something), I think I'd be rejected across the board if I applied to doctoral programs this coming December – simply because I haven't made a coherent whole out of my several really strong research interests. :/

Anyway, don't worry about your stats! If this turns out to be an unsuccessful round, hone those research interests, polish-polish-polish the SOP, and work on that writing sample. Stunning quality in those areas will wow the adcoms more than a 3.95 GPA.

Edited February 26, 2010 by speakwrite_

[LateAntique]

I'm not in your field, but I had to write a senior thesis for my Classics major. We're one of the few programs that has maintained this tradition at my university.

[woolfie]

I'm curious as to who told you 640V/3.7GPA is "less than stellar" as far as stats go. Most schools have a general recommendation of minimum 3.0/3.5, and 600V+. The highest standards I've heard of, from the top, Ivy-strewn bananas, have been 700V+ and 3.7+. And since adcoms tend to use stats as throwaway evaluators, I can't see yours doing you any harm. Common wisdom gleaned from the fine folks of this board, and other places: if your acceptances aren't meeting your expectations, it'll be the LORs, writing sample and especially SOP that need work. I sincerely doubt an extra 20 points on your GREs would make a huge difference either way, ditto .5 added onto your GPA.

I don't mean that to sound negative – I mean your stats sound fine. It may have been your choice in schools; you selected them to stay close to home, right? Perhaps your SOP didn't convince them you were a great fit? There are all kinds of things to revisit that will be more rewarding (and less tedious) to amp up than stats. When the GREs matter most – relatively – is for things like fellowships, etc.

To put the soapbox away and actually answer your question (sorry...!), I'm double majoring in English and medieval studies. I've done an independent research project for the latter, and will be doing an honours thesis for the former this coming year. As someone said above, I think I'm going to hold off on applications – at least to PhD programs – until I'm done that. Despite a resume sporting generally good-to-have things on it (research projects, taught seminar, assistantships), and a talent for standardised testing that will probably only ever be useful for the GRE (wish I could, like, unicycle, or something), I think I'd be rejected across the board if I applied to doctoral programs this coming December – simply because I haven't made a coherent whole out of my several really strong research interests. :/

Anyway, don't worry about your stats! If this turns out to be an unsuccessful round, hone those research interests, polish-polish-polish the SOP, and work on that writing sample. Stunning quality in those areas will wow the adcoms more than a 3.95 GPA.

Hey thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that my stats are necessarily bad, I just gathered from what English department sites have been saying about the difference from their averages and their requirements, as well as some friends in the program I'm applying to. It seems like 3.85+ and 700+ is about the average from those sources. And yeah, my choices were mostly location, but OSU English is actually a pretty good fit, in my opinion. But I'm already trying to work on my polishing certain aspects of my application for next year.

[Belltolls]

I feel your pain Belltolls. I wrote an honors thesis, but I should probably have taken more time to polish it. I'm 4 rejections for 8 apps. I praying for a waitlist of pity.

I wish you the best of luck MityaK and hope you get in somewhere! But, I'm really glad to hear someone is in the same boat as me. I've been lucky enough to have applied to a "backup" program for an MLS which I've been accepted to with a bit of a scholarship. I've actually been rethinking the English Phd route and am so grateful that I had a crazy day where I decided to apply to the MLS program. I think, regardless of what I decide to do, having the MLS will give me a marketable set of skills in a way that an English Phd cannot. I am not by any means saying that an English Phd does not produce incredible scholars with incredible skills, just that I'm not sure how marketable they are outside of the academic world.

Anyway, if I decide to eventually reapply (assuming I will be rejected this round which I'm fully anticipating) my work is going to be on the writing sample. Sigh, this was a bit of a ramble!

[Historiogaffe]

Hey thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that my stats are necessarily bad, I just gathered from what English department sites have been saying about the difference from their averages and their requirements, as well as some friends in the program I'm applying to. It seems like 3.85+ and 700+ is about the average from those sources. And yeah, my choices were mostly location, but OSU English is actually a pretty good fit, in my opinion. But I'm already trying to work on my polishing certain aspects of my application for next year.

OSU does sound pretty great. I have my eye on it, actually, as it's one of the only universities I can find anywhere that's strong in both medieval studies and rhetoric! I saw the 3.85 average on the Berkeley site, and just figured (after the initial throes of panic) that this average must simply be a result of half their cohort having 3.7 and half having 4.0.

I have heard of departments doing a "Well throw away anything under X" as far as GPA, but I've never heard of it being anything above 3.7. So hopefully that's a bit of a relief for both of us!

[hadunc]

Hey all, I was talking to a friend the other day about my grad app and she thought that, despite my stats of 640V 3.7 gpa being less than stellar, that I was a competitive candidate based on my sr. thesis and double major in English and Comparative Literature. She was trying to make me believe most people don't do senior theses and I don't know if I agree with her. I've been thinking that most people do that apply to grad school. So do you have one?

I think I'm one of the few people here who did not do a senior thesis, nor did I do a double major. I did take a lot of art history classes that would probably have qualified me for a minor had my school offered it, but that's it. I was offered acceptance into the honors program at my college, but declined because it would have meant staying at least an extra semester or two to complete my degree and I couldn't afford to do that. However, I think I made up for it by doing a lot of independent research. I've been fairly successful this season, so I don't think not having one immediately excludes you from getting accepted to grad school.

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

As a last minute decision entering my senior year, I joined the English Honors program. Wrote an honors thesis (~45pp), but for next year's round it won't be used as a writing sample (wasn't this year either, due to the second half of it being only in rough draft stage - I didn't save properly back in 2001), and I'm actually re-writing a different paper with a very different approach. Although I could possibly re-create the honors thesis, it doesn't quite match the field I'm interested in.

The honors program and thesis will be mentioned in the SOP, of course - I needed recommendations to get in, and got them from my old theater major profs (I was a terrific academic in theater, less stellar of an actor hahah). I'm not sure how that ranks compared to other English majors applying to grad school, but I'm assuming that if you didn't do either an honors / senior thesis, you may want to go for an MA first and only then the PhD (so "advanced" scholarly work can be evaluated at the application stage).

[Str2T]

I've heard that completing undergraduate theses doesn't matter as much as other indicators: writing sample, LoRs, SoP, etc. Because the quality of UG theses depends so much on the dedication of the student and availability/dedication of the advisor, I've heard that it just demonstrates the student's ability to do in depth research and write an extended paper (20 to 60 pages depending on departments' requirements). These are REALLY GOOD things to demonstrate, but unless you send part of your thesis in as your writing sample, PhD entrance committees will have no indication of the ability achieved in the thesis (unless you mention it in your SoP and your advisor/instructor mentions it in your LoR, both of which are secondhand). Instead, they will focus on the writing sample they have in hand.

Also, it depends on the school, but I believe UG theses are fairly common. Both my undergrad and the school I'm attending for graduate study require UG theses be completed before graduation.

[strokeofmidnight]

My results this year doesn't apply, but I was fairly successful applying without a thesis, straight out of college (though i did take a year off)....far moreso than the students my year who did write a senior thesis. Long story sort, i didn't "qualify" for the thesis-writing class...but ended up writing several research and theory intensive, writing-sample-length papers anyway--one of which I late revised into the writing sample for my first round. I don't think it's the thesis, per se, that counts...but the experience and product of that sort of intense scholarship (preferably with faculty guidance). If you can obtain it by other means, I really don't think that not having the letters on your CV will count. In short...even if you've already graduated, it's not too late and I don't think that not having written on will hurt you--as long as your writing sample can demonstrate a comparable (or higher!) level of thinking/research/writing.

Although I have one acceptance so far, I feel that I am on radio silence with the rest of the schools that I feel are a better fit and offer better prospects. I might be lagging behind the people who completed a senior thesis, who pushed harder for essay awards, who paid the fee to get into that Phi Beta Kappa whatsit organization that I always got the letters for but was TOO DAMN FOOL to chuck up $75 or whatever for it.

Coulda woulda shoulda.

Seriously...I can just about promise you that not a single thing on that list would have made a difference.

I had no awards, no honors, no publications, no conferences, no accolades, no TA experience, no special projects, no societies, no fellowships...etc, etc on my CV when I first applied. I got into half of my list (and applied almost exclusively to top-20 programs). The ONLY thing that I had going for me was a good writing sample and a not-so-awful SoP. That was enough to land top-ten programs. While it is too late to toss 75 down the drain...err, to PBK, or to push for essay awards (how obnoxious!), or to write an honors thesis...the things that are actually going to make a difference are still completely under your control.

Do you know just how little time ad-coms spend on the CV? I was accepted into a program that lost my transcripts and LoR. The only place that also lists my schools/grade level is my CV. I'm pretty sure that they didn't look at it at all...when they called me for the acceptance, they were mistakened about the school that I was from. (It's not quite as absurd as it sounds--my situation is understandably confusing, especially without transcripts. But had they even glanced at my CV, they would have figured this out). This is a very strong program that turns away their share of valedictorians. Believe me, they were not at all concerned about the honors that I have or haven't garnished. I don't think most schools will be concerned either.