2010 Religion/Theology MA/MTS/MDiv Results

[11Q13]

I know this is done at the PhD level, but is it possible to get a Masters program to give you better funding if you tell them another program has made you a better offer?

Basically, I got into Vanderbilt with a bigger scholarship than Harvard, but I would like to go to Harvard more. I know Harvard isn't exactly strapped for cash...and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking away aid for anyone else.

I would say something to the effect of them being my number one choice but another school has offered me more funding, and that I would also look for outside funding sources but would think it might not be feasible for me to attend without a little more financial aid.

[Jack Horner]

I know this is done at the PhD level, but is it possible to get a Masters program to give you better funding if you tell them another program has made you a better offer?

Basically, I got into Vanderbilt with a bigger scholarship than Harvard, but I would like to go to Harvard more. I know Harvard isn't exactly strapped for cash...and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking away aid for anyone else.

I would say something to the effect of them being my number one choice but another school has offered me more funding, and that I would also look for outside funding sources but would think it might not be feasible for me to attend without a little more financial aid.

Couldn't hurt, right? Especially if you're planning on declining Harvard's offer unless you get more funding. The worst case scenario would be that they would tell you no.

[invsblmn]

I got into Harvard MTS and Yale MAR. Harvard gave me full tuition but I have yet to hear of Yale's financial aid. These were the only two schools I applied to, so it's not much of a choice, but still, this will require some thinking...

I'm leaning toward Harvard, but I like Yale's study-abroad program and I hear the Yale girls are more attractive. Because I know they'll be all over us divinity school students.

[johndiligent]

I know this is done at the PhD level, but is it possible to get a Masters program to give you better funding if you tell them another program has made you a better offer?

Basically, I got into Vanderbilt with a bigger scholarship than Harvard, but I would like to go to Harvard more. I know Harvard isn't exactly strapped for cash...and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking away aid for anyone else.

I would say something to the effect of them being my number one choice but another school has offered me more funding, and that I would also look for outside funding sources but would think it might not be feasible for me to attend without a little more financial aid.

Try asking. I managed to up one program's offer SIGNIFICANTLY (by $10,000) by telling them what other offers I'd received. And mine are all MA programmes.

[peppermint.beatnik]

Try asking. I managed to up one program's offer SIGNIFICANTLY (by $10,000) by telling them what other offers I'd received. And mine are all MA programmes.

Wow! I'm so impressed! You've got some balls--good job

[pinto]

I probably would have declined even if they offered me 100% since I have an offer of 100% on the table with the possibility of a $9k assistantship stipend. Still, I can't believe that tuition alone is almost $40k at UChicago. Factor in living expenses, books and medical insurance and you're looking at $60k/year for a masters degree in humanities. I refuse to believe that *anyone* accepts their offer unless the degree is 100% subsidized.

Is this true? $60K?

I was accepted into the AM for religion at Chicago with the standard 50% off tuition. A full time student is considered as registered for 3 out of 4 quarters. So my calculation for tuition and fees (minus the 50%) is about $22K per year. The question though, I suppose, is whether one can obtain the degree in 6 quarters or 8 quarters. Because at 6 quarters one is looking at somewhere between $50K and $60K for the total (keeping the living expenses to a minimum).

Also, I would like to know if anyone thinks it is absolute lunacy to accept a $60K debt for master's in religion in this economic climate and current transition of the processes of production? Of course I am thinking to continue to the PhD but really, those are big numbers to subject oneself to. But then again it is the University of Chicago and it is pretty much a once in a lifetime chance to absorb the knowledge and methods of the world's top religion scholars. Does anyone have some thoughts on these things?

[grossse]

Is this true? $60K?

I was accepted into the AM for religion at Chicago with the standard 50% off tuition. A full time student is considered as registered for 3 out of 4 quarters. So my calculation for tuition and fees (minus the 50%) is about $22K per year. The question though, I suppose, is whether one can obtain the degree in 6 quarters or 8 quarters. Because at 6 quarters one is looking at somewhere between $50K and $60K for the total (keeping the living expenses to a minimum).

Also, I would like to know if anyone thinks it is absolute lunacy to accept a $60K debt for master's in religion in this economic climate and current transition of the processes of production? Of course I am thinking to continue to the PhD but really, those are big numbers to subject oneself to. But then again it is the University of Chicago and it is pretty much a once in a lifetime chance to absorb the knowledge and methods of the world's top religion scholars. Does anyone have some thoughts on these things?

Chicago is NOT a cheap place to live. If you live there already and are not paying rent, you could get away with the budget you're proposing. All the same, if it's $22k per year, that's $44k over two years, and I don't know anyone who can survive on $3k a year (based on your estimate of $50k total debt, or even $8k, based on your calculation of $60k) in Chicago. Please remember that you have to factor in things like insurance and food, as well as transportation. I got into UChicago a couple of years ago, and declined the offer. I calculated that it would cost about $100k for the degree (AM). Thankfully I had a good offer at Boston College, so it made the decision easier. I grant that there are lots of great folks at UChicago, but as with everything else, it depends on what you're looking for. It might be wise to see if you could get in touch with students who are currently in the program to see what their budget is like (most students get 50% tuition). Best of luck in your discernment!

P.S. Most of my friends have been devoting about $20k to living expenses (rent, utilities, insurance, transportation, food, books) in Boston, and I'd imagine that the figure would be somewhat similar in Chicago (I lived there for four years, and it's slightly less expensive there, depending on where you live).

[NervousNellie]

but I like Yale's study-abroad program and I hear the Yale girls are more attractive. Because I know they'll be all over us divinity school students.

I have so far been accepted at YDS and ANTS. Have not yet heard from MLTS.

[thekidisalright]

Is this true? $60K?

I was accepted into the AM for religion at Chicago with the standard 50% off tuition. A full time student is considered as registered for 3 out of 4 quarters. So my calculation for tuition and fees (minus the 50%) is about $22K per year. The question though, I suppose, is whether one can obtain the degree in 6 quarters or 8 quarters. Because at 6 quarters one is looking at somewhere between $50K and $60K for the total (keeping the living expenses to a minimum).

Also, I would like to know if anyone thinks it is absolute lunacy to accept a $60K debt for master's in religion in this economic climate and current transition of the processes of production? Of course I am thinking to continue to the PhD but really, those are big numbers to subject oneself to. But then again it is the University of Chicago and it is pretty much a once in a lifetime chance to absorb the knowledge and methods of the world's top religion scholars. Does anyone have some thoughts on these things?

Disclaimer: Pessimism Below

Yes, this is absolute lunacy. I would caution against taking that out for a PHD, and at least a PHD sets you up for some kind of employment. A master's at a top program does not guarantee you admission into a PHD program (I did well at Notre Dame, have excellent GREs and recs, and have struck out twice. Check the forums from years past - I am not the only one). Further, the amount of tenured positions in the humanities is decreasing so quickly that IF you do get into and out of a PHD program and get hired as a professor, you are likely never going to break 100k/year (or even get close).

If you are hemorrhaging money like that at the master's level, by the time you leave school, you will have given away a house for the sake of a low-security, low-income job. Or in other words, you will owe twice your maximum salary cap.

All this to say, only go if they fund you.

See Wikepedia for salary numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professors_in_the_United_States#Salary

Also, this is a good article about the state of the academy: http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/

[Jack Horner]

Is this true? $60K?

Tuition without any scholarship/fellowship is $39k. Yes, I realize that the majority of applicants who are accepted are accepted with 50% tuition reduction. Still, that's $20k/year in tuition alone. For comparison, tuition at Boston College (another private university in a big city) is $14-15k/year before any fellowships. So we have a starting point of $20k + rent (minimum of $8k/year) + living expenses (minimum of $5k/year) + medical insurance ($1k/year) + books and supplies ($1-1.5k/year). Before you know it, that's $35k/year after they've shaved off $20k of tuition! That's insanity.

I was accepted into the AM for religion at Chicago with the standard 50% off tuition. A full time student is considered as registered for 3 out of 4 quarters. So my calculation for tuition and fees (minus the 50%) is about $22K per year. The question though, I suppose, is whether one can obtain the degree in 6 quarters or 8 quarters. Because at 6 quarters one is looking at somewhere between $50K and $60K for the total (keeping the living expenses to a minimum).

I wasn't aware of the quarter registration requirements. Still, it's absolutely insane that tuition and fees are anything over $15k/year, especially when you factor in the living expenses of a big city. It shocks me that people even *consider* UChicago without a full tuition grant.

Also, I would like to know if anyone thinks it is absolute lunacy to accept a $60K debt for master's in religion in this economic climate and current transition of the processes of production? Of course I am thinking to continue to the PhD but really, those are big numbers to subject oneself to. But then again it is the University of Chicago and it is pretty much a once in a lifetime chance to absorb the knowledge and methods of the world's top religion scholars. Does anyone have some thoughts on these things?

Do your future self a favor, and find a cheaper program. The last thing you want to end up doing is teaching high school with $50-70k in student debt and only a Masters degree to show for it. You can find a program of equal caliber that will set you up just as well for future PhD studies without mortgaging your future like you would have to if you went to UChicago.

[Jack Horner]

Chicago is NOT a cheap place to live. If you live there already and are not paying rent, you could get away with the budget you're proposing. All the same, if it's $22k per year, that's $44k over two years, and I don't know anyone who can survive on $3k a year (based on your estimate of $50k total debt, or even $8k, based on your calculation of $60k) in Chicago. Please remember that you have to factor in things like insurance and food, as well as transportation. I got into UChicago a couple of years ago, and declined the offer. I calculated that it would cost about $100k for the degree (AM). Thankfully I had a good offer at Boston College, so it made the decision easier. I grant that there are lots of great folks at UChicago, but as with everything else, it depends on what you're looking for. It might be wise to see if you could get in touch with students who are currently in the program to see what their budget is like (most students get 50% tuition). Best of luck in your discernment!

P.S. Most of my friends have been devoting about $20k to living expenses (rent, utilities, insurance, transportation, food, books) in Boston, and I'd imagine that the figure would be somewhat similar in Chicago (I lived there for four years, and it's slightly less expensive there, depending on where you live).

I'd love to pick your brain about the program at Boston College and what it's like to live in Boston, as I'm going to accept their offer tomorrow.

[lovethequestions]

I know this is done at the PhD level, but is it possible to get a Masters program to give you better funding if you tell them another program has made you a better offer?

Basically, I got into Vanderbilt with a bigger scholarship than Harvard, but I would like to go to Harvard more. I know Harvard isn't exactly strapped for cash...and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking away aid for anyone else.

I would say something to the effect of them being my number one choice but another school has offered me more funding, and that I would also look for outside funding sources but would think it might not be feasible for me to attend without a little more financial aid.

I've known it to happen. It can't hurt, anyway. (Though Harvard is, actually, strapped for cash these days, from what I hear.)

[pinto]

Wow. Thanks for the responses everyone. That is useful info though disheartening no doubt. I did not realize it was so expensive to live in Chicago. That is quite absurd and based on the responses the personal risk is perhaps too high.

I will not take the time to respond to everyone but I appreciate all the responses.

The article by Thomas H. Benton on why one should not go into graduate school in the humanities is quite enlightening (though pessimistic indeed). I liked this quote especially, "It's hard to tell young people that universities recognize that their idealism and energy — and lack of information — are an exploitable resource" (http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/), as it is definitely true.

And I will definitely take into account the idea of mortgaging my future to the U of Chicago. Luckily, I have some other schools I am waiting to hear from so maybe I can bargain a bit.

The only factor I have working in my favor is that I would be studying Islamic studies and so would come out with (ideally) expert knowledge of the Arabic language and relevant cultural knowledge for jobs both inside and outside academia. But I think Thomas H. Benton would psychoanalyze me and tell me that I am making justifications in order to fulfill my wishes (God, the University of Chicago is exciting isn't it?)

Finally, last thing, I would like a poll to know what is the maximum debt each person would take on to complete a Masters in religious studies??

[Jack Horner]

Finally, last thing, I would like a poll to know what is the maximum debt each person would take on to complete a Masters in religious studies??

The absolute maximum for me would be $40k. My personal situation is that I'm getting an MA because I want to continue teaching high school, and the M* degree results in an immediate $5-7k annual salary increase and a higher annual step increase. Therefore, a $40k degree would (hopefully) pay for itself within 5-10 years and would begin paying dividends immediately after that (a long time, yes, but not unmanageable). Still, ideally I'd love to keep my total debt below $30k, although I just don't know how feasible that will be.

[pinto]

The absolute maximum for me would be $40k. My personal situation is that I'm getting an MA because I want to continue teaching high school, and the M* degree results in an immediate $5-7k annual salary increase and a higher annual step increase. Therefore, a $40k degree would (hopefully) pay for itself within 5-10 years and would begin paying dividends immediately after that (a long time, yes, but not unmanageable). Still, ideally I'd love to keep my total debt below $30k, although I just don't know how feasible that will be.

Yeah that definitely makes sense then. Unfortunately, I do not have an exact career sector that I can estimate salary and my ability to pay off debt for. But for me I would only work in academia, I think, if the opportunity somehow presented itself. Otherwise, I am guessing I will have to search out my options as to where I can work with the knowledge that comes from Islamic studies. So in that light it seems better. Better than trying to break into the field of Shakespeare scholarship or something of that nature. Arabic is the game changer for me. The only thing that makes me feel better after reading the article from eskidd titled 'Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go' is that I am not set on working in academia only etc.

[pinto]

Disclaimer: Pessimism Below

Yes, this is absolute lunacy. I would caution against taking that out for a PHD, and at least a PHD sets you up for some kind of employment. A master's at a top program does not guarantee you admission into a PHD program (I did well at Notre Dame, have excellent GREs and recs, and have struck out twice. Check the forums from years past - I am not the only one). Further, the amount of tenured positions in the humanities is decreasing so quickly that IF you do get into and out of a PHD program and get hired as a professor, you are likely never going to break 100k/year (or even get close).

If you are hemorrhaging money like that at the master's level, by the time you leave school, you will have given away a house for the sake of a low-security, low-income job. Or in other words, you will owe twice your maximum salary cap.

All this to say, only go if they fund you.

See Wikepedia for salary numbers: http://en.wikipedia....d_States#Salary

Also, this is a good article about the state of the academy: http://chronicle.com...the-Huma/44846/

Do you think it is more plausible to pursue a PhD (including copious amounts of debt) if my degree and focus would not limit me to a job within academia?

[thekidisalright]

Do you think it is more plausible to pursue a PhD (including copious amounts of debt) if my degree and focus would not limit me to a job within academia?

My point is in part due to the fact that master's level degrees in religion are worthless if you don't move on to a PhD, which, given the way the field is right now (again, check out the old forums) is uncertain. A PhD at UChicago isn't quite a gamble - you might not get a job you love initially, but you will get a job. It makes more sense to go into debt for it.

A M.A./M.T.S. on the other hand will likely not prepare you for much. I'm using mine to teach (which I love), but even that is tenuous: diocesan schools pay nothing and prep schools often won't hire you without a PhD or years of teaching experience (at least on the east coast). What they essentially prepare you for is the opportunity to apply for PhD programs. Given that there are many other programs that are better funded than UChicago's 50% offer, it's worth going elsewhere, or re-applying next year.

You may be in a slightly different position here, if your interests mean that you might work in government, consulting, etc. Still, we are talking about a non-terminal degree that doesn't directly prepare one for anything, in one of the worst job markets.

We do this because we love it. Just find somewhere that will pay you (at least not charge you) to love it.

[NickPD]

Thanks to the debbie downers for hijacking what was an exciting forum. We all know about the "state of the humanities", and for many of us, there are not a lot of options out there. No trustfunds + mediocre GREs = minimal funding and school debt. Trying to get a job right now is not easy, maybe not possible; what else are we suppose to do when this career is indeed what we love and have set our minds to doing?

[Jack Horner]

Fair enough...do what you love. We just want to make sure that people are making educated decisions and not unknowingly mortgaging their future.

[divinity888]

Hear hear, NickPD. A lot of people were downers to me about even getting into a masters program, about how much more competitive it is this year than ever before because everyone is avoiding the job market - but here we all are and all did great! Sure, the number of opportunities is shrinking - but it just means we have to work that much harder to get what we want. Nothing in life is ever guaranteed, but we just do everything we can. The alternative is giving up on a career in academia which I am flat out NOT willing to do. It is what I love and what I'm suited for and I'll chase it down regardless.

[johndiligent]

Wow! I'm so impressed! You've got some balls--good job

Haha, no, don't be impressed. I didn't ask in a ballsy way, just told them that I was trying to decide between a number of offers and I was wondering if there were any other funding opportunities (TAships, etc.) available to me.

I don't think it's too shark-like to ask. I'd be pleased to attend any of the schools I applied to, so the funding level has really been the deciding factor. Since that's the case, I feel like it's only fair to ask the other schools whether there's funding beyond what was detailed in their offer letter so that I can make the best possible choice.

[johndiligent]

Accepted to the University of Alberta today. In case anyone is looking for their notification, mine came via the U Alberta webmail that they give you when you apply. I wouldn't have thought to check it but I accidentally clicked on the link in my bookmarks and then figured I might as well log in. Good thing because otherwise weeks might have passed before I thought to look. The status on Beartracks hasn't been updated.

[somnolentlover]

Okay, so: I have a problem, albeit a good one. I was accepted to Harvard MTS with a little more than full-tuition, and UChicago AM with full tuition. I also got into Columbia MA, but there's no funding for master's students, so it's really not an option for me. I'm shocked and thrilled, but I'm having a tough time deciding which program to pick. I've been looking at courses, and though Harvard has greater variety, the courses at Chicago look a little tougher. I also visited Harvard during Theological Education Days and attended a few classes--I wasn't very impressed. Granted, I am coming from a top LAC where profs are here to teach and nothing else (well, not really). I haven't been to UChicago.

What are your opinions of the two programs (Harvard and UChicago)? Have you heard anything from advisors/current students?

Do you think it would be more expensive to live in Boston or Chicago for two years?

Which would give me a better chance of getting into a PhD program? (probably a dumb question, but let's face it--it's the most pressing concern)

Do you think I'd be able to/should try to convince either school to give me more funding? Say, for housing?

I think I'm leaning toward Harvard. Especially because one of my interests is Japanese religion, and there's no one really doing that at Chicago. So I should go to Harvard, right? AAAAHHH, I don't know.

Edited March 15, 2010 by somnolentlover

[redreverend]

Okay, so: I have a problem, albeit a good one. I was accepted to Harvard MTS with a little more than full-tuition, and UChicago AM with full tuition. I also got into Columbia MA, but there's no funding for master's students, so it's really not an option for me. I'm shocked and thrilled, but I'm having a tough time deciding which program to pick. I've been looking at courses, and though Harvard has greater variety, the courses at Chicago look a little tougher. I also visited Harvard during Theological Education Days and attended a few classes--I wasn't very impressed. Granted, I am coming from a top LAC where profs are here to teach and nothing else (well, not really). I haven't been to UChicago.

What are your opinions of the two programs (Harvard and UChicago)? Have you heard anything from advisors/current students?

Do you think it would be more expensive to live in Boston or Chicago for two years?

Which would give me a better chance of getting into a PhD program? (probably a dumb question, but let's face it--it's the most pressing concern)

Do you think I'd be able to/should try to convince either school to give me more funding? Say, for housing?

I think I'm leaning toward Harvard. Especially because one of my interests is Japanese religion, and there's no one really doing that at Chicago. So I should go to Harvard, right? AAAAHHH, I don't know.

I've heard great things about Harvard's Asian Religions program. I have a friend who studied Asian Religions there and loved it! I would say go for Harvard.

[peppermint.beatnik]

Haha, no, don't be impressed. I didn't ask in a ballsy way, just told them that I was trying to decide between a number of offers and I was wondering if there were any other funding opportunities (TAships, etc.) available to me.

I don't think it's too shark-like to ask. I'd be pleased to attend any of the schools I applied to, so the funding level has really been the deciding factor. Since that's the case, I feel like it's only fair to ask the other schools whether there's funding beyond what was detailed in their offer letter so that I can make the best possible choice.

I just meant that it's uncommon at the MA level (at least in Canada!) The fact that the school gave you that much money is a good sign that they'll treat you well, and that they want you.