Stanford vs Berkeley ???

[London]

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate enough to get admitted to both Stanford (EE) and Berkeley (CS) PhD programs (with university fellowships).

It's REALLY hard to choose!

I know that Stanford is more 'entrepreneurial' - which is very important for me.

But from the other side, Berkeley is a wonderful institution as well with great academic merit.

Can you please tell me what are you thoughts regarding the pros and cons of each?

Thanks so much!

Edited March 2, 2010 by London

[testarossa]

Congratulation !!

Both schools are great and you can't go wrong with either choice. I think you should choose the program that offers the research you are interested in or with the professor that you prefer.

Just some thought that I have, Berkeley's budget has been cut drastically last year. With California is still facing a seriously budget deficit, I don't see anyhow that Berkeley's funding is going to recover. Thus, it makes some research stalled that you might have been interested in.

Personally, I like Stanford better since I feel that it is more prestigious.

[awaiter]

@London:

If you are not too far off the east coast (going by your display name) it is better to take a visit to both places and check out for yourself. From what I know at Stanford people tend to be little proud and not as friendly you want them to be. I am not crticizing them for it. It is just the way they are. At Berkeley people are more friendly and happier. Ofcourse match in research interests must be the top priority and Congrats !

[wifey99999999]

@London:

If you are not too far off the east coast (going by your display name) it is better to take a visit to both places and check out for yourself. From what I know at Stanford people tend to be little proud and not as friendly you want them to be. I am not crticizing them for it. It is just the way they are. At Berkeley people are more friendly and happier. Ofcourse match in research interests must be the top priority and Congrats !

You mean sort of like Harvard / Yale / Princeton people's "pride"... ?

But I agree with you though. Having been to both campuses, I agree that you'd see more "pride" (or arrogance if you want to call it that way) at Stanford than at Cal.....

[datamineguy]

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate enough to get admitted to both Stanford (EE) and Berkeley (CS) PhD programs (with university fellowships).

It's REALLY hard to choose!

I know that Stanford is more 'entrepreneurial' - which is very important for me.

But from the other side, Berkeley is a wonderful institution as well with great academic merit.

Can you please tell me what are you thoughts regarding the pros and cons of each?

Thanks so much!

Stanford, hands down. berkeley is good yes. but stanford is sort of different level when it comes down to EE and CS.

[BKMD]

They are both top schools, so you can't really go wrong with your choice, but having visited both campuses, I'll note that they are definitely different kinds of schools.

Stanford is a (fairly) small private school and Berkeley is a large public school. Berkeley is larger, and there are probably more people you could potentially work with, though whether you consider this an advantage or disadvantage is a personal preference.

In terms of environment... the Stanford campus is nicer and cleaner, but is pretty much isolated from everything else, and you'd need to take a shuttle to Palo Alto (which isn't designed for pedestrians) to get to most restaurants. The Berkeley campus is a bit more integrated with the town, and has more of an urban feel, and is definitely easier to get by without a car.

And as others have mentioned, there are differences in attitudes of the people there... if your school is a bad personality fit, that could be a problem. And someone mentioned Berkeley's budget situation, which could definitely be a concern.

I think it's important to visit the schools you're considering, but if you can't, then try reading up on them as much as you can. If there is research being done at one school that you're more interested in, then that's probably what you should go with.

[mark123]

Stanford EE is notorious for its qualifying exam. And, without passing qualifying exam, it's almost impossible to find a PhD supervisor. Moreover, a large portion of the professors are busy running their own companies, which means they may not be involved in supervising their students.

Berkeley is different, once you're admitted, they'll try their best to guarantee funding for you throughout your PhD years. They have the top academic advisors like David Tse, Chenming Hu. Without terrifying qualifying exams, and with professors involved in your research, I believe it is the right way to explore students' potentials.

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate enough to get admitted to both Stanford (EE) and Berkeley (CS) PhD programs (with university fellowships).

It's REALLY hard to choose!

I know that Stanford is more 'entrepreneurial' - which is very important for me.

But from the other side, Berkeley is a wonderful institution as well with great academic merit.

Can you please tell me what are you thoughts regarding the pros and cons of each?

Thanks so much!

[quadsbaby]

Stanford EE is notorious for its qualifying exam. And, without passing qualifying exam, it's almost impossible to find a PhD supervisor. Moreover, a large portion of the professors are busy running their own companies, which means they may not be involved in supervising their students.

Berkeley is different, once you're admitted, they'll try their best to guarantee funding for you throughout your PhD years. They have the top academic advisors like David Tse, Chenming Hu. Without terrifying qualifying exams, and with professors involved in your research, I believe it is the right way to explore students' potentials.

It is true that Stanford is notorious for its quals exams. That being said, I don't really agree that the professors are any less involved with their students than the profs at Berkeley (I spent a summer working at Stanford and was at Berkeley frequently for some collaborative stuff).

I think the two are roughly equal on a prestige level, and I would really stress visiting--the atmospheres are totally different.

[noojens]

I'll second (or third, or whatever) the opinion that you should visit both campuses. I think the universities are so close in terms of overall reputation and EECS reputation that it'd be pointless (if not impossible) to choose based on prestige. The other factors mentioned above (location, atmosphere, demographics/diversity, etc) are important, but IMO the overwhelmingly dominant factor is your potential advisor. So go meet the faculty! Find out who in your field is looking for students and who has funding. Find out how their current students feel about them, and where their past students have ended up after graduation. And get to know your advisor as a person (inasmuch as that's possible in a weekend visit) -- they'll be your boss, and hopefully your friend, for the next 5-6 years!

Anyway good luck to you! Not a bad dilemma to have =)

[London]

Thanks guys!

You gave me great points to think about.

I actually visited Stanford and Berkeley a few months ago and got a pretty good feeling of what you said about the different campus atmospheres.

Stanford is indeed more business-oriented and people there seem very focused on achieving goals. Berkeley seems more 'fun fun fun' and 'academic'.

The professors I've met were GREAT in both schools, extremely nice and professional so I really can't really rely on that as well for my decision.

Regarding the Quals, I dont really care for that because generally believe that if you really want to make it, you will (50% pass in the first time + 75% on the second time means that only 12.5% of the admits are left out and my guess is that most of them didn't really want to spend 5 years into PhD and wanted to 'exit' with a MA).

Another question though. Regarding entrepreneurship, do you really think that Berkeley isn't a good place for that compared to Stanford? I saw they have their own entrepreneurs community (on the web at least) and they do have a very good B-school. Why do you think Stanford is a better place for this?

Thanks again!!!

[Slorg]

Mark123 said that at Stanford it's nearly impossible to find an advisor without passing the quals. If that's the case, how does one go about identifying or meeting potential advisors, before enrolling at the school and taking its quals? Is it a mistake to contact Stanford professors now? And if so, how should someone decide whether to attend Stanford or not? Just based on general feeling and prestige and funding, rather than a concrete position in your advisor's research group? At other universities, it seems like professor take an interest in the students much earlier, which makes this decision easier.

[quadsbaby]

Mark123 said that at Stanford it's nearly impossible to find an advisor without passing the quals. If that's the case, how does one go about identifying or meeting potential advisors, before enrolling at the school and taking its quals? Is it a mistake to contact Stanford professors now? And if so, how should someone decide whether to attend Stanford or not? Just based on general feeling and prestige and funding, rather than a concrete position in your advisor's research group? At other universities, it seems like professor take an interest in the students much earlier, which makes this decision easier.

No, it's not a mistake to talk to Stanford professors now. If I choose to go to Stanford, I already have an advisor who is willing to take me.

[noojens]

Another question though. Regarding entrepreneurship, do you really think that Berkeley isn't a good place for that compared to Stanford? I saw they have their own entrepreneurs community (on the web at least) and they do have a very good B-school. Why do you think Stanford is a better place for this?

My sense here is that lots of start-ups come out of both Berkeley and Stanford, and the Berkeley engineering community does have close ties to Haas (the B-school) -- but Stanford has a closer relationship with the innovative community in Silicon Valley (and probably easier access to venture capital).

I'm definitely not basing this on any hard data, this is just my general impression.

[richinsane]

Anyone now if it’s too difficult to live in Berkeley and study at Stanford? This is due to the fact that my wife was accepted for a PhD in Berkeley and I was not and I’m waiting the answer from Stanford... so that would be the only chance I have left

[quadsbaby]

Anyone now if it’s too difficult to live in Berkeley and study at Stanford? This is due to the fact that my wife was accepted for a PhD in Berkeley and I was not and I’m waiting the answer from Stanford... so that would be the only chance I have left

Probably easier for you both to live in San Francisco. It's doable though.

[noojens]

Probably easier for you both to live in San Francisco. It's doable though.

Yeah, or Oakland. Either way the sum of your commutes is going to be ~90 mins, right quads?

[tempProfileS]

London, I posted a reply on your previous thread, but saw this and want to offer my opinion again. This is a very important choice to make, I hope you choose Berkeley CS. I am a current student at Stanford. Some points to consider (both pros and cons below), I am very opinionated.

1. It is order of magnitudes easier to start a company in CS than in EE. Lot more initial capital needed for EE companies. EE was the hot field 20-30 years ago, now it's all CS.

2. Berkeley CS is the 2nd best CS program in the world for startups. It is very hard to get in (depending upon the subfield it can be harder than Stanford). This year was really hard to get into Berkeley (due to budget cuts), so congrats!

3. Heard that Stanford EE admits ~200-300 students each year. You're not really considered a "PhD" student until you pass the quals, find an advisor, etc... The program is way too large, too many students competing for the attention of faculty. Friends have said that it's a like a "jungle", some in the program absolutely hate it.

4. It is extremely difficult to find a CS advisor as a Stanford EE student.

5. Stanford is much much more prestigious than Berkeley (you'll find this out if you enter industry looking for a job).

If you were admitted to Berkeley EE rather than Stanford EE, than yeah bite the bullet and go to Stanford. In my opinion, the main choice is between CS and EE.

Regardless of where you go, identify potential advisers and start emailing them. The competition for good advisers has already begun.

What areas are you interested in?

[handson123]

5. Stanford is much much more prestigious than Berkeley (you'll find this out if you enter industry looking for a job). 

I doubt that this is true at the MS/PhD level. The Stanford MSEE degree is over exploited commercially . Anyway,  Berkeley has the MOT ( Management of Technology) program for PhD students. Many startups also had their beginnings at Berkeley. Stanford appeared to be a better place for entrepreneurs probably because of the fame of Google. Also at Berkeley you can take as many classes as you want whereas at Stanford if you take more than 10 credits ( as provided by your fellowship/TA/RA) you have to pay extra. Berkeley campus is considered by many to be more beautiful and it is very close to San Fransisco. And all the things you heard about the Quals at Stanford, the competitiveness this results and how they admit more students than they can afford til PhD and plan to cut 50% of them are all true.

[Jun Zhao]

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate enough to get admitted to both Stanford (EE) and Berkeley (CS) PhD programs (with university fellowships).

It's REALLY hard to choose!

I know that Stanford is more 'entrepreneurial' - which is very important for me.

But from the other side, Berkeley is a wonderful institution as well with great academic merit.

Can you please tell me what are you thoughts regarding the pros and cons of each?

Thanks so much!

Berkeley CS absolutely.

Stanford EE has terrible PhD qualification exam. Even if you are in the PhD track, if you don't pass the qual, you will be thrown out with only a master degree. In addition, since Stanford EE admits so much people, it is very hard to find a research advisor.

I have already been admitted to Stanford EE PhD track without financial aid. As there is no possibility for me to get financial support, so I have to give up Stanford EE.

Please feel free to contact me. Email: jun9zhao [AT] gmail.com

Edited March 10, 2010 by Jun Zhao

[London]

London, I posted a reply on your previous thread, but saw this and want to offer my opinion again. This is a very important choice to make, I hope you choose Berkeley CS. I am a current student at Stanford. Some points to consider (both pros and cons below), I am very opinionated.

1. It is order of magnitudes easier to start a company in CS than in EE. Lot more initial capital needed for EE companies. EE was the hot field 20-30 years ago, now it's all CS.

2. Berkeley CS is the 2nd best CS program in the world for startups. It is very hard to get in (depending upon the subfield it can be harder than Stanford). This year was really hard to get into Berkeley (due to budget cuts), so congrats!

3. Heard that Stanford EE admits ~200-300 students each year. You're not really considered a "PhD" student until you pass the quals, find an advisor, etc... The program is way too large, too many students competing for the attention of faculty. Friends have said that it's a like a "jungle", some in the program absolutely hate it.

4. It is extremely difficult to find a CS advisor as a Stanford EE student.

5. Stanford is much much more prestigious than Berkeley (you'll find this out if you enter industry looking for a job).

If you were admitted to Berkeley EE rather than Stanford EE, than yeah bite the bullet and go to Stanford. In my opinion, the main choice is between CS and EE.

Regardless of where you go, identify potential advisers and start emailing them. The competition for good advisers has already begun.

What areas are you interested in?

Thanks,

This is very good advice. I starting to think that when comparing two top schools like these, the decision should be made according to potential advisors and not the school's prestige or other factors.

I'm interested in areas just between EE and CS such as Systems research and Neural computation.

[Ninjagecko]

Every Stanford EE PhD I have spoken to (10-15) have said that the qual's reputation is no longer justified. If you fail the second time, but your advisor likes you, he can qualify you regardless of the test.

That said, the department is big and impersonal. It's extremely easy to work with non EECS advisors though.

[ZachAJ]

I'm at Berkeley EE. I know this isn't a surprise, but I'd definitely recommend Berkeley CS over Stanford EE.

Quals:

Stanford's EE qual pass rate is 50% (first time) and it is significantly tougher than Berkeley's CS quals....the average is here is something like 75%, and if you choose the right area, it's closer to 90%. Berkeley admits a much smaller class than Stanford...from my friends down in Palo Alto, you will feel a lot more stress that first summer if you choose to go there. And you spend more time studying for it your first year that you could be doing research...at least that's our take on it.

Startup stuff:

Business-wise, I'm a part of the MOT program, and it is fantastic for working with MBA students. I have several friends that compete in lots of business plan competitions and such. The old thinking was that Berkeley was more for "open source" type projects and Stanford was more "startup" oriented, but that has changed. Berkeley had a really bad Intellectual Property department for many years, but it's changed in the last 5 years to be equal to Stanford. You're still closer to Silicon Valley in Palo Alto if that's important to you though. But if you want to do a startup here, there are plenty of others you can work with.

Finances:

Berkeley EECS doesn't have a financial problem...we're almost self-sufficient from the UC system because of all the funding we get from outside. Actually, we have received permission to do a few things to raise more money that the University prevented us from doing, so we're going to have even more money in a few years. We are going to be expanding the department with more faculty in the coming years, we just finished a new building / fab, and are renovating our old building floor by floor.

Personality:

On a "fun" note, Berkeley CS department really is fun to be a part of. As a member of Berkeley EE, we've tried to work with Stanford EE to organize some events together, but they are generally unreceptive. A lot of Stanford EE grads are older and more family oriented...so if that's something you're interested in, you'll like it. But Berkeley has much more community.

Overall:

Why'd I choose Berkeley? The professors....all of the stuff I said doesn't matter if you don't like the faculty. So choose the place you feel more comfortable with, and where you can find an advisor you'll work well with for the next 5 years.

Good luck with your decision!

[quadsbaby]

Good luck with your decision!

I'm guessing this is Zach of Berkeley's EEGSA. Dude, you're awesome! Sorry I didn't end up going to Berkeley, but visit weekend was really fun. I was the guy from Caltech (Florida originally)... the one that didn't eat whole chickens or speak greek.

Edited April 12, 2010 by quadsbaby

[handson123]

I'm guessing this is Zach of Berkeley's EEGSA.  Dude, you're awesome!  Sorry I didn't end up going to Berkeley, but visit weekend was really fun.  I was the guy from Caltech (Florida originally)... the one that didn't eat whole chickens or speak greek.

Yeah, Zach and Berkeley EEGSA are awesome!!! I still couldn't figure out who is quadsbaby though...Did we bump into each other? Which area are you in? ( IC/Design of El. Sys./..??)

[ZachAJ]

Yeah, Zach and Berkeley EEGSA are awesome!!! I still couldn't figure out who is quadsbaby though...Did we bump into each other? Which area are you in? ( IC/Design of El. Sys./..??)

Ha thanks! Good luck wherever y'all go - I'm sure we'll all meet up at conferences anyhow!