YDS vs. HDS

[_Athena_]

Hi, everyone! I was recently accepted at HDS (Jewish Studies MTS) and YDS (Second-Temple Judaism MARc). I have received a 75% tuition remission from both, so I am at a bit of loss as to which I should choose.

On the one hand, YDS boasts one of the few specialized programs in Second-Temple Judaism. On the other hand, HDS might allow more wiggle room to delve into secondary interests (Lurianic Kabbalah and Maimonidean thought, specifically). Likewise, I feel it is important to tighten my grasp on the intellectual history of Judaism from the biblical to the modern period, so I am not sure if HDS is the better fit in that it is more broadly-focused. I also find myself drawn to the culture and multi-faith atmosphere of HDS.

Both schools are home to top scholars in the field, and both would provide me with an extraordinary education, which makes it so difficult to choose. Would it be better to go to YDS, where I can specialize right off the bat in Second-Temple Judaism, or would it be better to go to HDS, where I might enjoy a more well-rounded approach? Are there any other factors I should be considering (location aside)?

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated!

[ChristoWitch87]

2 hours ago, _Ariadne_ said:

Hi, everyone! I was recently accepted at HDS (Jewish Studies MTS) and YDS (Second-Temple Judaism MARc). I have received a 75% tuition remission from both, so I am at a bit of loss as to which I should choose.

On the one hand, YDS boasts one of the few specialized programs in Second-Temple Judaism. On the other hand, HDS might allow more wiggle room to delve into secondary interests (Lurianic Kabbalah and Maimonidean thought, specifically). Likewise, I feel it is important to tighten my grasp on the intellectual history of Judaism from the biblical to the modern period, so I am not sure if HDS is the better fit in that it is more broadly-focused. I also find myself drawn to the culture and multi-faith atmosphere of HDS.

Both schools are home to top scholars in the field, and both would provide me with an extraordinary education, which makes it so difficult to choose. Would it be better to go to YDS, where I can specialize right off the bat in Second-Temple Judaism, or would it be better to go to HDS, where I might enjoy a more well-rounded approach? Are there any other factors I should be considering (location aside)?

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated!

First off, congrats! Good problem to have if there ever was one

Since your financial aid is identical I think the tipping point has to be deciding which program situates you better for a PhD at schools you would pick right now.

Your main perk for YDS was the uniqueness of the program, however you actually wrote more about topics you would only find in a committed Jewish studies program. My information is a little dated (YDS MAR 11') but from what I experienced there I think it would be vastly easier for you to do some Second Temple stuff at Harvard than it would be for you to do anything on Kabbalah and/or Maimonides at YDS. Also I would expect YDS' Second Temple program to be very much in conversation with early Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but your interests seems more in the spectrum of Judaism. If your choice in PhD topic reflects this, the MTS from HDS will make more sense.

As an aside: I think there is a lot of research to be done on how the Second Temple period informed the eventual formation Kabbalah.

Random Internet guy votes HDS!

[_Athena_]

45 minutes ago, ChristoWitch87 said:

First off, congrats! Good problem to have if there ever was one

Since your financial aid is identical I think the tipping point has to be deciding which program situates you better for a PhD at schools you would pick right now.

Your main perk for YDS was the uniqueness of the program, however you actually wrote more about topics you would only find in a committed Jewish studies program. My information is a little dated (YDS MAR 11') but from what I experienced there I think it would be vastly easier for you to do some Second Temple stuff at Harvard than it would be for you to do anything on Kabbalah and/or Maimonides at YDS. Also I would expect YDS' Second Temple program to be very much in conversation with early Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but your interests seems more in the spectrum of Judaism. If your choice in PhD topic reflects this, the MTS from HDS will make more sense.

As an aside: I think there is a lot of research to be done on how the Second Temple period informed the eventual formation Kabbalah.

Random Internet guy votes HDS!

Thanks so much! It's definitely one of the more pleasant problems I've had, haha. 

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that it wouldn't be so easy to pursue my secondary interests at YDS, while it would be easier to pursue topics relating to Second-Temple Judaism at HDS. I'm certainly not to opposed to studying Judaism in conversation with early Christianity, but it's not my particular focus. I do sort of get the vibe that YDS is a bit more Christian-leaning, what with its ties to BDS. 

However, I wonder if it's better to narrow one's interests at the M.A. level, perhaps in better preparation for a Ph.D. program? 

 

Thanks for your response!

[MattSolo]

1 hour ago, _Ariadne_ said:

However, I wonder if it's better to narrow one's interests at the M.A. level, perhaps in better preparation for a Ph.D. program? 

If you are seeking to get a PhD in Second Temple and Hebrew Bible, I think YDS's highly selective and specialized degree would be key (along with Collins recommendation and guidance). If you're seeking a different field in Jewish thought for a PhD, then HDS might better serve your future.

My 2 cents of thoughts. 

[ChristoWitch87]

1 hour ago, _Ariadne_ said:

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that it wouldn't be so easy to pursue my secondary interests at YDS, while it would be easier to pursue topics relating to Second-Temple Judaism at HDS.

Yes, and in addition to that, interests change over the course of a masters. You may find your secondary interests have become your primary ones by the time two years is up (part of the advantage of having a diversity of classes).

 

1 hour ago, _Ariadne_ said:

I'm certainly not to opposed to studying Judaism in conversation with early Christianity, but it's not my particular focus. I do sort of get the vibe that YDS is a bit more Christian-leaning, what with its ties to BDS. 

However, I wonder if it's better to narrow one's interests at the M.A. level, perhaps in better preparation for a Ph.D. program? 

You are correct in that it is definitely a more Christian place than HDS. A very liberal Episcopalian/Catholic, welcoming, sort of Christian, but Christian.

There are more qualified voices than mine to comment on what follows but I speculate if about 50% of your MTS/MAR is directly related to your PhD specialty you should be good to go. 

[_Athena_]

1 hour ago, MattSolo said:

If you are seeking to get a PhD in Second Temple and Hebrew Bible, I think YDS's highly selective and specialized degree would be key (along with Collins recommendation and guidance). If you're seeking a different field in Jewish thought for a PhD, then HDS might better serve your future.

My 2 cents of thoughts. 

I am absolutely interested in working with John Collins - my interests line up with his on a number of levels, and he just seems like a very nice, very self-aware individual. I could say the same about Jon Levenson at HDS, though.

I am aiming for a PhD in the realm of Second-Temple Judaism, but, as ChristoWitch87 said, interests change over time.

Decisions, decisions!

[_Athena_]

1 hour ago, ChristoWitch87 said:

Yes, and in addition to that, interests change over the course of a masters. You may find your secondary interests have become your primary ones by the time two years is up (part of the advantage of having a diversity of classes).

 

You are correct in that it is definitely a more Christian place than HDS. A very liberal Episcopalian/Catholic, welcoming, sort of Christian, but Christian.

There are more qualified voices than mine to comment on what follows but I speculate if about 50% of your MTS/MAR is directly related to your PhD specialty you should be good to go. 

I definitely see the advantage of the greater flexibility I might have at HDS, as well as the freedom to explore other interests. But YDS is equally good in its specialization. This is a tough one.

[Rabbit Run]

4 hours ago, _Ariadne_ said:

  I do sort of get the vibe that YDS is a bit more Christian-leaning, what with its ties to BDS. 

 

 

I think this is right: HDS casts itself as an interfaith divinity school whereas YDS is more a Christian oriented divinity school that welcomes those of other faiths

[Onthenahar]

You're probably aware of YDS's course division sheets, but just in case here's the link for Second Temple: https://divinity.yale.edu/sites/default/files/mar concentrate course plan-second temple.pdf

According to that, you have 12 credits of electives at your disposal--that's equal to one class per semester in whatever you'd like so long as your adviser says it's kosher. You can take classes in pretty much any of the departments (https://divinity.yale.edu/admissions-aid/btfo_blog/2017/resources-yale-downtown-classes), but I believe you cannot exceed a certain number of downtown classes (i.e. you can't take everything in your program outside of the Div school)--you'd have to dig a little deeper for that, but my guess is 12 credits is within that number. So as long as you can explain to your adviser you want to trace the merkaba or bat kol through Kabbalah groups, you could probably pursue your developing interests. I'd add that with 12 credits needed for advanced Hebrew, you have room to do something besides their advanced Hebrew I & II courses. You could do a seminar on a tractate or something similar downtown with Fraade, as opposed to an exegesis of Isaiah class or the like. With Hayes and Fraade downtown and Collins and Reymond at the Div school, you can do some serious coursework in Second Temple Judaism/Early Rabbinic Literature while pursuing your other interests through electives. You can also check out current and previous classes through Yale OCI: https://students.yale.edu/oci/search.jsp. 

 

I cannot comment anything on Harvard's program. I turned down a YDS offer a couple of years ago for Chicago, but before doing so I found out as much as I could about YDS. Ultimately, Adela Collins retirement made me choose Chicago. FWIW (and this is probably not worth all that much), YDS students tend to go on to whatever programs they want. At recruitment weekends I attended, there was at least one Yalie present. I didn't run into any HDS folks--maybe they applied elsewhere or just had a lag this year. 

[MattSolo]

3 hours ago, _Ariadne_ said:

I am absolutely interested in working with John Collins - my interests line up with his on a number of levels, and he just seems like a very nice, very self-aware individual. I could say the same about Jon Levenson at HDS, though.

I've heard from several people that Levenson is retiring and will be leaving HDS. So you may want to check up on that if Levenson is someone who is drawing you toward HDS.

[_Athena_]

9 minutes ago, MattSolo said:

I've heard from several people that Levenson is retiring and will be leaving HDS. So you may want to check up on that if Levenson is someone who is drawing you toward HDS.

That's actually a huge bummer, and something about which I plan on inquiring. Thanks for the heads-up.

[_Athena_]

34 minutes ago, Onthenahar said:

You're probably aware of YDS's course division sheets, but just in case here's the link for Second Temple: https://divinity.yale.edu/sites/default/files/mar concentrate course plan-second temple.pdf

According to that, you have 12 credits of electives at your disposal--that's equal to one class per semester in whatever you'd like so long as your adviser says it's kosher. You can take classes in pretty much any of the departments (https://divinity.yale.edu/admissions-aid/btfo_blog/2017/resources-yale-downtown-classes), but I believe you cannot exceed a certain number of downtown classes (i.e. you can't take everything in your program outside of the Div school)--you'd have to dig a little deeper for that, but my guess is 12 credits is within that number. So as long as you can explain to your adviser you want to trace the merkaba or bat kol through Kabbalah groups, you could probably pursue your developing interests. I'd add that with 12 credits needed for advanced Hebrew, you have room to do something besides their advanced Hebrew I & II courses. You could do a seminar on a tractate or something similar downtown with Fraade, as opposed to an exegesis of Isaiah class or the like. With Hayes and Fraade downtown and Collins and Reymond at the Div school, you can do some serious coursework in Second Temple Judaism/Early Rabbinic Literature while pursuing your other interests through electives. You can also check out current and previous classes through Yale OCI: https://students.yale.edu/oci/search.jsp. 

 

I cannot comment anything on Harvard's program. I turned down a YDS offer a couple of years ago for Chicago, but before doing so I found out as much as I could about YDS. Ultimately, Adela Collins retirement made me choose Chicago. FWIW (and this is probably not worth all that much), YDS students tend to go on to whatever programs they want. At recruitment weekends I attended, there was at least one Yalie present. I didn't run into any HDS folks--maybe they applied elsewhere or just had a lag this year. 

You've pointed out a lot of things worth some serious consideration. It seems the MARc at YDS is more flexible than I initially thought - I'll definitely reach out to some of the folks there to inquire about electives and taking classes downtown. 

One of my utmost concerns, which I am sure is shared by countless others here, is admission into a top PhD program. I just want to go to the school that will help me get there, which means I have a lot more research to do.  Thanks for the wealth of information!

[11Q13]

I did an MTS at HDS in Jewish Studies back in '12

Even if you're not particularly interested in studying early Christianity, having other students with interests in Christianity and the Bible generally I'm sure would help in terms of the overall academic environment. At HDS only a small part of the student body has any interest in anything to do with the Bible or Judaism or Christianity. I knew it wasn't a Christian seminary going in, but it didn't hit me that most of the people at HDS, including a lot of people in my classes would not know much about these subjects that I took for granted.

I wouldn't worry too much about Levenson leaving if your interest is Second Temple. Andy Teeter and Shaye Cohen are the two you should work with in Second Temple anyway.

That said, I would caution against focusing too much on "Second Temple Studies" as though focusing strongly on that will prepare you for a PhD or a job. There aren't jobs in Second Temple studies, and PhD programs would rather you focus on, say, Hebrew Bible or early Christianity and show that your emphasis is in the Second Temple context with your language prep and coursework. I say this as someone at Notre Dame, where Second Temple is still a big deal. We reject applicants every year because they are too focused on Second Temple Judaism or DSS to the exclusion of either HB or NT. 

 

[_Athena_]

1 hour ago, 11Q13 said:

I did an MTS at HDS in Jewish Studies back in '12

Even if you're not particularly interested in studying early Christianity, having other students with interests in Christianity and the Bible generally I'm sure would help in terms of the overall academic environment. At HDS only a small part of the student body has any interest in anything to do with the Bible or Judaism or Christianity. I knew it wasn't a Christian seminary going in, but it didn't hit me that most of the people at HDS, including a lot of people in my classes would not know much about these subjects that I took for granted.

I wouldn't worry too much about Levenson leaving if your interest is Second Temple. Andy Teeter and Shaye Cohen are the two you should work with in Second Temple anyway.

That said, I would caution against focusing too much on "Second Temple Studies" as though focusing strongly on that will prepare you for a PhD or a job. There aren't jobs in Second Temple studies, and PhD programs would rather you focus on, say, Hebrew Bible or early Christianity and show that your emphasis is in the Second Temple context with your language prep and coursework. I say this as someone at Notre Dame, where Second Temple is still a big deal. We reject applicants every year because they are too focused on Second Temple Judaism or DSS to the exclusion of either HB or NT. 

 

This is hugely helpful. Thanks so much. It seems that HDS, while not attracting a great deal of people whose interests lie in the realm of Hebrew Bible/Judaism/Early Christianity, might be the place to get a more well-rounded approach. It's obviously too late to apply to HB at YDS, so I am wondering how much freedom the STJ program provides to pursue study in other periods. And, of course, there is a great deal of overlap. I am definitely going to ask around. Do you think I could risk being turned away from some PhD programs with an MAR in Second-Temple?

Edited March 17, 2018 by _Ariadne_
A word

[_Athena_]

Also, to be fair, the MARc at YDS does cover both the late biblical period and early Christiany (at least according to their website).

[MattSolo]

5 hours ago, _Ariadne_ said:

It's obviously too late to apply to HB at YDS, so I am wondering how much freedom the STJ program provides to pursue study in other periods. And, of course, there is a great deal of overlap. I am definitely going to ask around. Do you think I could risk being turned away from some PhD programs with an MAR in Second-Temple?

It's actually not too late at all. In your first semester at YDS, you can speak with Joel Baden and your advisors and explain your interest in transferring. They will easily do it for you. There's no limit on the number of students in a program, so you can switch with ease. However, there is no HB concentration. They have a BIBLE MARc which covers both Old and New Testaments which you can transfer to, but then that would be less attractive to a broad Second Temple PhD such as at Notre Dame.

However, I'm not sure that you would want to. As Collins explained it to me, the STJ program is a combination of Hebrew Bible and Second Temple (including early Christianity). He advised me not to apply to either the Bible or the general MAR if my interest was broad. And there's more languages in the MARc for STJ, which probably appeals to any PhD more than the Bible MARc.

As for your last comment, I don't think a MARc in Second Temple Judaism would hurt you at all. If it comes from YDS, it basically tells any PhD that you are broadly skilled. The STJ program is a "make it yourself" degree sort of. The classes you pick and choose will determine how good a fit for a PhD you are. Done optimally, you could apply to PhD programs in both Old and New Testament (and of course STJ) and be qualified to pursue either (which is quite unusual). 

And remember, you'll have the ability to extend a 3rd year and then another option to pursue a ThM (or at YDS, an STM) for another year in order to concentrate further or broaden your studies however you want.

Edited March 18, 2018 by MattSolo

[_Athena_]

On 3/17/2018 at 8:22 PM, MattSolo said:

It's actually not too late at all. In your first semester at YDS, you can speak with Joel Baden and your advisors and explain your interest in transferring. They will easily do it for you. There's no limit on the number of students in a program, so you can switch with ease. However, there is no HB concentration. They have a BIBLE MARc which covers both Old and New Testaments which you can transfer to, but then that would be less attractive to a broad Second Temple PhD such as at Notre Dame.

However, I'm not sure that you would want to. As Collins explained it to me, the STJ program is a combination of Hebrew Bible and Second Temple (including early Christianity). He advised me not to apply to either the Bible or the general MAR if my interest was broad. And there's more languages in the MARc for STJ, which probably appeals to any PhD more than the Bible MARc.

As for your last comment, I don't think a MARc in Second Temple Judaism would hurt you at all. If it comes from YDS, it basically tells any PhD that you are broadly skilled. The STJ program is a "make it yourself" degree sort of. The classes you pick and choose will determine how good a fit for a PhD you are. Done optimally, you could apply to PhD programs in both Old and New Testament (and of course STJ) and be qualified to pursue either (which is quite unusual). 

And remember, you'll have the ability to extend a 3rd year and then another option to pursue a ThM (or at YDS, an STM) for another year in order to concentrate further or broaden your studies however you want.

Yeah...I realized after posting that that Bible exists at YDS, but not HB. I definitely don't think I'd want to switch knowing what I know now, especially considering the broadness of the STJ program. I've managed to speak to a couple professors as well (and one PhD candidate at Chicago Divinity who is defending soon), who confirmed that a focus in STJ is fine, as long as you are strong enough in HB or NT to be considered for jobs solely in those areas. Essentially, as long as you position yourself with a strong tie to HB or NT (or both!), you will be a good candidate for Bible jobs, among others. The main problem seems to be that there are far too many qualified people and too few jobs. I managed to learn a great deal more, but it's a lot to write here!

Edited March 20, 2018 by _Ariadne_

[MattSolo]

3 hours ago, _Ariadne_ said:

Yeah...I realized after posting that that Bible exists at YDS, but not HB. I definitely don't think I'd want to switch knowing what I know now, especially considering the broadness of the STJ program. I've managed to speak to a couple professors as well (and one PhD candidate at Chicago Divinity who is defending soon), who confirmed that a focus in STJ is fine, as long as you are strong enough in HB or NT to be considered for jobs solely in those areas. Essentially, as long as you position yourself with a strong tie to HB or NT (or both!), you will be a good candidate for Bible jobs, among others. The main problem seems to be that there are far too many qualified people and too few jobs. I managed to learn a great deal more, but it's a lot to write here!

Thank you for sharing. Yes, it makes me wonder (with a goal of being competent in HB and NT) if a MAR in STJ requires both an extra year in the program and a STM/ThM so that you can take enough classes to be competent in both fields... hmm... 

Are you leaning more toward HDS or YDS yet? 

[_Athena_]

15 minutes ago, MattSolo said:

Thank you for sharing. Yes, it makes me wonder (with a goal of being competent in HB and NT) if a MAR in STJ requires both an extra year in the program and a STM/ThM so that you can take enough classes to be competent in both fields... hmm... 

Are you leaning more toward HDS or YDS yet? 

Yeah, no problem! The extended M.A.R. is definitely something to consider if you wish to delve deeper into HB/NT, but I don't know too much about the S.T.M. degree. I think it would probably be difficult to determine now whether that would be necessary, but I'm sure extra coursework couldn't hurt. 

I'm honestly more undecided now than I was before. I feel like I could almost make an arbitrary decision and still be fine, because both schools have excellent reputations and respective academic strengths. I think it will come down to which school is a better fit. In any case, I'm still in the process of talking to professors, so I could easily see myself choosing either one. 

[Epaphroditus]

Another thing to consider is that it's not that difficult to transfer to a different concentration at YDS once you're admitted. Many MAR Bible folks who went onto top PhD programs in NT/early Christianity transferred into the History of Christianity track since it has fewer required courses, which allows for more electives and courses downtown. Ultimately, admissions committees will be looking at the courses you took and not the name of your concentration.

[_Athena_]

3 hours ago, Hopeless_Academic said:

Another thing to consider is that it's not that difficult to transfer to a different concentration at YDS once you're admitted. Many MAR Bible folks who went onto top PhD programs in NT/early Christianity transferred into the History of Christianity track since it has fewer required courses, which allows for more electives and courses downtown. Ultimately, admissions committees will be looking at the courses you took and not the name of your concentration.

That's good to keep in mind - thanks! I certainly see the benefit of that, but my primary interests don't really lie in Early Christianity. I hope I can stick with Judaism and still be marketable! 

[search the scriptures]

@_Ariadne_, congrats on your acceptances.  I was also accepted to YDS for an MARc in Bible, and I am currently planning on attending.

Does anyone know how important it is to get a campus job that suits one's PhD plans?  For example, should I be trying to get a research assistant position or something along those lines (if even available), rather than a normal library or "work-study" position?  I am wondering what most people who got into top PhD programs did for on-campus work while they were master's students.  

[sjca14]

1 hour ago, search the scriptures said:

@_Ariadne_, congrats on your acceptances.  I was also accepted to YDS for an MARc in Bible, and I am currently planning on attending.

Does anyone know how important it is to get a campus job that suits one's PhD plans?  For example, should I be trying to get a research assistant position or something along those lines (if even available), rather than a normal library or "work-study" position?  I am wondering what most people who got into top PhD programs did for on-campus work while they were master's students.  

The way a professor explained it in one of our PhD application panels was that unless one's previous work is research oriented it is useless and should not be on a C.V.  That is the strongest stance I have heard on it. Most other people I have heard say it helps to have research experience, but other jobs can be explained in a way that still showcase relevant skills. At BC I wasn't able to get a research assistantship, I worked in the office for the department copying paper and doing things like that and I was accepted to a PhD program.

[sjca14]

On 3/20/2018 at 2:52 PM, _Ariadne_ said:

That's good to keep in mind - thanks! I certainly see the benefit of that, but my primary interests don't really lie in Early Christianity. I hope I can stick with Judaism and still be marketable! 

Hey! I might have missed this in the thread, but have you asked YDS and Harvard for their acceptance numbers to PhD programs in HB/NT/Second Temple? They might not have an official chart or anything, but someone in the department should have an idea of where students have been accepted in the last three years. Neither of those programs are so large that that shouldn't be common knowledge within the community. This is important because BC has a great record of getting students into Ethics and Historical programs, but a less successful record of getting students into systematic and bible programs, even though BC has a very strong systematics department. The point being the strength of a program does not always directly correlate to doctoral acceptances.

[_Athena_]

1 hour ago, sjca14 said:

Hey! I might have missed this in the thread, but have you asked YDS and Harvard for their acceptance numbers to PhD programs in HB/NT/Second Temple? They might not have an official chart or anything, but someone in the department should have an idea of where students have been accepted in the last three years. Neither of those programs are so large that that shouldn't be common knowledge within the community. This is important because BC has a great record of getting students into Ethics and Historical programs, but a less successful record of getting students into systematic and bible programs, even though BC has a very strong systematics department. The point being the strength of a program does not always directly correlate to doctoral acceptances.

That's a good idea! Who should I ask - professors, maybe, or admissions?