ChristoWitch87

If I had all time and money in the world with an admissions letter, I would want to do an MD (Psychiatry)/PhD (Theology) combination and do work on Hermeticism, Jungian Hermeneutics, and other generally spooky topics related to the intersection of medicine and magick. I honestly don't even know where would be good for that given how niche those interests are lol.

Precisely. The MDiv is three years and generally includes a broad curriculum of scriptures, history, theology and ministerial (pastoral care, preaching, liturgy, etc.) courses to prepare candidates for ordination. An MTS (or MAR, as mine was called) is generally two years that is either focused on a particular field (systematic theology, early church history, etc.) or comprehensive (think smaller MDiv) and intended for lay ministries. That said, a fair number of MDiv holders go on to get PhDs. The pathways certainly have some overlap.

Harvard is the only M.Div program that has ever dinged me. I can only assume my chances for the PhD there are non-existent lol.

Thanks for the reply. Should the conversation stick to research interests and if/when new students will be taken, or is it also appropriate to ask what you can do to improve your chances? Mainly concerned in my case for my lack of languages (elementary Spanish, German). Going to try to get both of those up to intermediate by the time of application and maybe introductory French. My focus is modern so I dont predict too much delving into ancient languages.

Hey all, I've decided to go ahead with pursuing the PhD route and National Guard Chaplaincy. I am currently looking at Drew University, Claremont School of Theology, and perhaps Boston U and Claremont Graduate University as well. I am also open to suggestions. Anywhere with a focus in process theology or "Emerging" traditions (paganism/new age/contemprary) would likely work; though in the first case I would likely have a rough time migrating to a philosophy department. I have identified who I would like to work with at Drew and CST. Is it appropriate to contact them to make sure they are taking new doctoral students and/or test if research interests align? Are in person meetings encouraged? I would be looking at entry in Fall 2021 if that changes things. Many thanks. -Witch87

Hey all, I've decided to go ahead with pursuing the PhD route and National Guard Chaplaincy. I am currently looking at Drew University, Claremont School of Theology, and perhaps Boston U and Claremont Graduate University as well. I am also open to suggestions. Anywhere with a focus in process theology or "Emerging" traditions (paganism/new age/contemprary) would likely work; though in the first case I would likely have a rough time migrating to a philosophy department. I have identified who I would like to work with at Drew and CST. Is it appropriate to contact them to make sure they are taking new doctoral students and/or test if research interests align? Are in person meetings encouraged? I would be looking at entry in Fall 2021 if that changes things. Many thanks. -Witch87

I'm not going to lie I died a little inside when I read this. Did not know it was an option...

56M (Chaplain Assistant) to 37F (PSYOP). Flunked right out of DLI Korean but did just fine in another language taken elsewhere. Trying to see if they'll take me as a Chaplain and that will be the deciding factor.

First off, let me say I am pulling for you. In the big picture, and law is better balanced in this regard, I think the academy and divinity especially would do well to have more practitioner-scholars in tenure track positions. In the small picture, its like reading into my own future, as it appears I will be finishing a military career then applying for doctoral studies around the time I am your age. Anyways, right to it. I think your perfect end state would be teaching at a law school in a university that also has a divinity or RS faculty to fully maximize the mutual benefits of your "law and theology" focus for both yourself and potential students. You have correctly surmised that your best bet for entry in this regard is through the law faculty. That is where your primary experience and training is, and frankly divinity schools tend to limit their practitioner faculty to pastoral care types with tons of ministry experience. So, assuming a goal of becoming a law professor I offer you the following. - I would think long and hard to make sure the Ph.D is necessary for your intended goal. While the trend for law professors seems to be moving towards the Ph.D, it certainly is not a requirement. From what I've gathered, additional advanced degrees pay bigger dividends for those with JDs from non-elite institutions, University of Texas is one of those respectable, upper-tier but not quite SCOTUS producing sort of places so you are middle to above-average in this regard. I think you should post a copy of your original message on law forums for their take as well. https://www.thefacultylounge.org/2010/09/aspiring-law-professors-the-phd.html http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/should_aspiring_law_profs_go_for_a_jsd_degree/ - If you do decide your teaching prospects are enhanced enough by doctoral studies to be worth the commitment, go to the most prestigious place you can that lines up with your interests since brand is an element in law hires. Oxford offers D.Phil degrees in both law and theology on a part-time basis that may be of interest to you. https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/dphil-theology-and-religion?wssl=1 https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/dphil-law?wssl=1 RE 1. My vote is for Edinburgh, both in terms of prestige and in terms of formal theological training being what could benefit you the most. Also see if Oxford has a relevant part time M.Phil. RE 2. The big thing about UK Ph.Ds is that there are no accompanying classes or exams. It is just research, so simply put I would go to whatever place is the best combination of preparing you for your Ph.D research and prestige. Again this will likely be Edinburgh of the schools you've listed. RE 3. Others are better suited to comment on this. The answer will be influenced by the precise nature of your research interests, requisite languages, sorts of American schools you aim to apply for etc. my personal recommendation though is if you start overseas, finish overseas as it saves you time. It would be a different story if you were trying to enter academia through a Divinity/RS faculty, but any Ph.D is technically above and beyond for law positions and I doubt they will know the finer points of distinction between American and UK theology Ph.Ds. RE 4. Oxbridge, Oxbridge, Oxbridge. They have part time programs in law and theology and it would be worth digging. RE 5. If you really like VU Amsterdam, I don't see it as a negative. Having a Ph.D is extra in law faculty hires. That said, Oxbridge and the Scottish Ancient Unis will have the most name recognition and will be most highly regarded by American faculties. Best of luck, hope this helps!

Amer. Baptists yes, the rest definitely seem to shuffle from year to year. The frozen chosen (PCUSA), Episcopalians, and the African Methodist Episcopalians seem to have strong representation with the Amer. Baptists at the moment. And I should reemphasize that while we tend to average a UU student or two, and I've had a good time here (I'm still not sure they know what to make of me, though they are kind about it ) CRCDS is still a liberally Christ-centered institution.

Ordained ministry is definitely the most common route for graduates. However, I think this has more to do with CRCDS' strong regional reputation and the fact that we have a good track record obtaining placements for those who want them (Even from my non-trad background, and being open about said background, I found intern-placement at a liberal-mainline church and will say that my school affiliation helped). About half of our graduates serve their faiths in other ways though, and your research interests relating to the interface between Trauma and religious formation would find a home here on multiple fronts. Dr. Brummitt teaches a course on the place of Trauma in the formation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and our Dean would absolutely (<99.9%) allow you to do your six credit supervised ministry in a non-parish setting where you could focus on the topics you described above. You also mentioned the Womanist perspective, while this is not my realm of expertise I do know that this is the specialty of our incoming President. https://www.crcds.edu/about-crcds/our-pres/ The employment breakdown from our handbook (2017-2019) is as follows: 52% Parish Ministry 14% Chaplaincy 14% Non-Profit/Social Work 7% Advanced Degree 2% Higher Education Teaching/Administration 11% Other

Hello agfun83, Sorry to hear about your negative experience. I rarely get this precise on these forums but based on what you've described I think you would be a perfect fit for the school I currently attend (Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School). The school was founded in the American (liberal) Baptist tradition and primarily caters to Episcopalians, American Baptists, Presbyterians, and African Methodist Episcopal ordination candidates. They are *extremely* flexible with transferring credits to keep your costs down as long as your school was ATS accredited (case-by-case if not I believe, credits within ten years are acceptable) and tuition is reasonable. As far as academics go we are a small school with a good reputation. Most of our faculty did their doctorates at elite institutions, class sizes are small (5-10 per class), and while most of our graduates go into ministry we did place an M.Div student in BU's Ph.D program a year or two ago. The student body is female majority and while the school is very Christian in its courses and overall outlook, it is so in a very liberal way (I'm Wiccan and the student body president, for context). Anyways feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Sharing your research interests and/or professional goals would be useful to the rest of us who may be able to recommend other good fits for you to apply to. I don't think Notre Dame is out of the question (as you said, you expect the rest of your app to be great, and your UG is still an ivy) but I think everyone should apply to at least 4 schools both for security and options in case their situation changes.

I think the GREs are most important for folks with low GPAs (to alleviate doubts about academic potential) and who convey commitment to using the MTS as a stepping stone to the Ph.D (to convey promise for future doctoral admissions). I speculate social justice/NGO/lay ministry types are evaluated more on what they have done and what they can contribute to the incoming class than numbers.

Also, is a 3.07 in Pakistan the same as a 3.07 here? Most other nations do not curve as generously as the US and it may payoff if you can prove this with your class ranking.

Honestly, masters level HDS admissions seem to be a crap-shoot. A fair number of folks seem to get in with a 3.0 and an interesting story. Others have been dinged with decent numbers (3.7/4, 166/162/4.5... not bitter ?). I speculate that they evaluate applicants based on intent. For example if someone applies saying they want to get a doctorate in biblical studies, normal metrics such as GPA probably carry more weight. But if you have some sort of ministry/social justice bent it's probably more case by case. Unlike the rest of the graduate school world, rankings dont matter much in divinity school, so they are not beholden to a strict admissions formula like law and business. That said, I second that you should take the GRE if you can do well. It would help negate your low GPA.

Union Theological Seminary also allows its M.Div students to specialize in Buddhism and Interreligious Engagement. https://utsnyc.edu/life/institutes/buddhism-program/

Couple options right now (worked as a Chaplain Assistant about 5 years ago, so got to see the officers fretting over their career plans), you can get a Pastoral Theology or Counseling Psych Ph.D if you specialize in counseling as a field grade (MAJ/LTC/COL), there is the occasional Poli Sci type that will use his Frankenstein M.Div to Social Sci Ph.D build to advise generals, and you can (my goal) teach at West Point, which involves getting your doctorate in whatever you teach (likely philosophy or religion in my case).

Scary prospect given the job market. Given that military chaplaincy is my other main alternative I may be better off waiting til I hit Major and apply for PhD programs (Army has a surprising number of programs that funds doctoral work).

From the general theme of the comments, it sounds like the OP needs language prep more than a full Th.M/STM. Do the Bible types here believe he would be well served by simply taking a language boot camp over the Summer? I would be shocked if Yale didn't provide Hebrew and at least one pertinent modern language (German) over the Summer.

There will be other replies following mine that will be able to provide greater expertise pertaining directly to questions surrounding NT studies, but figured I would chime in as one YDS alum (MARc Theology 11') to another. So when I was at YDS, grades generally seemed curved from an HP+ to an H- (B+ to A-), so near straight H's is no small feat (did you graduate with honors?). That and your GREs both clearly reflect that you are capable of doctoral work. Therefore I would not worry about your old undergraduate records; they will be a second or third order considerations at most. But now to the central point, I admire and pity you Bible types for the amount of languages you end up with by the time you are fully qualified. While a strong command of Greek (which H grades and a strong exegesis paper should convey) is most important you've rightly guessed more-is-better for elite schools. With your YDS pedigree and strong Greek, I do not doubt you would get in somewhere, but you don't seem to want somewhere, you want someplace elite, or at least competitive as you described. As such, I see three options for you: 1. Cast a really wide net and apply to as many NT programs as you can do justice to. I think you will get in somewhere. Do not be surprised if some places ding you for a Ph.D but offer you a spot in a Th.M or STM class. 2. Get your Th.M/STM first and then apply. You could realistically add two languages and a thesis to your resume doing this. However, if you go this route, I recommend doing your Th.M/STM at a different institution. As you said, NT is in flux right now at YDS. You may be better served completing your follow-on degree at an institution you want your Ph.D from. Ideally get the same person you would want for your Ph.D advisor to be your Th.M/STM advisor and let them mold you into what they want for the easiest possible admissions cycle. 3. Mix 1 & 2. Apply to Yale's Ph.D in the GSAS since you seem well connected at YDS already, maybe one or two other dream schools, and then 3 or 4 of the best Th.M/STM programs. I tend to be averse to breaking the bank personally, so I prefer 1 & 3. But then again, this is not my field or my dream. Only you know what you need and who you need to work with to realize your research goals. Await further instruction from actual Bible specialists on how to maximize your experience if you go with 2. Best of luck!

Truth be told, and my search has spanned the UK as well, the resources for "Pagan Theology" don't really exist as far as I can tell. The UK has a couple History and Sociology folks who will advise Graduate students studying Neopaganism as an emerging religion/social phenomenon. Then there are various forms of Pagan-adjacent theologians in the US who deal with topics like the Divine Feminine, Process, etc. but I've already made peace with the idea that if I go this route my dissertation topic may need to be more closely aligned with traditional Theology/RS interests and then I can add the Neopagan bent once I am hired somewhere. I am starting at a very meta place, to the point that even the project of theology itself requires justification in the Neopagan community... While I think a Philosophy program is not as plausible in my case (unless there was a strong Philosophy of Religion bent) Philosophy tends to be more highly regarded in my own religious community. That does suck about CGU though. My research seems to indicate that CST and CGU are in the process of a divorce and the CST faculty may be moving to Willamette in Oregon. Perhaps that is part of the reason for the closure given the shared faculty.

That was really thorough, thank you! I looked through the link. It appears to be mostly Philosophy programs (which makes sense, considering Whitehead). I think at this point, two M* later I am strictly a theology guy though. Faber looks like he could be a really good match given his interest in Comparative Religion. Your cohort story answered a question for me I've pondered before (how do you stop people from just flat out lying?). On that point though, how much value does old language coursework have? There is no way I can fit German into my schedule (full course load, thesis writing, CPE, continuing Spanish) but I took two semesters in UG and got A's. I obviously don't have any retained anymore, but will they at least see that as an indicator I am competent to pick up the languages I need?

So I am entering my final year of M.Div studies and things have taken a turn for the strange. What I thought was going to be a fairly straight forward journey to obtaining a credential for chaplaincy has turned into writing a thesis on the search for a common theological language for dialogue between Christianity and Neopaganism. As I've worked on this topic, I've come to realize that common ground isn't to be had so much between Neopaganism and Christianity proper as between Neopaganism and process theology. The mutability of God, a panentheist view of experienced reality, and the general evolutionary/unfolding view of both humanity and God are things largely accepted in Neopaganism. My project is quickly becoming the creation of a Neopagan theology communicated in process language. I am in the very early stages of contemplating further study, but I am curious, what are admissions like for CST? Who else does process theology? What should I do in terms of languages and coursework to prepare (An STM/Th.M is not out of the question as I have enough GI Bill left)? Are there realistic placements for this field given it appears to be small? In terms of a topic, I would likely focus on how a process framework affects gendered concepts of divinity in religious devotion (e.g. the male architect-God of being vs. the female-mother Goddess of becoming). Background: BA Philosophy and Math, SUNY (3.75/4), MAR Theology from YDS (N/A weird grading system), M.Div from a small ATS accredited mainline school (3.8-3.9/4). Languages: Spanish, Persian (Long Story) Thanks in advance.

This 110%. Schools sift through hundreds of applications to find what amounts to the 2-10 best students to give fully funded offers to. Why on earth should they care about someone's work status during prior degrees when they are committing hundreds of thousands of dollars in stipend aid to one candidate per specialty?