What MSW programs are best for research and a future career in academia?

[curiousfuture]

I want to do research on how the medicalization of addiction through practices such as safe injection sites, Portugal like models of decriminalization/harm reduction, and stigma free substance abuse treatment lead to better health and wellness outcomes over the current criminalization and oppression model and its wrongheaded philosophical underpinnings. 

However, I am a bit confused on the issue of how best to gain experience doing research of this sort. Per my understanding of the topics on this forum, IVY League schools (Columbia, U-Penn)and "Quasi Ivy League" state schools (UC Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan) are best for MSW level research in general. Yet, considering my research interests heavily lie in areas that are clinical and mental health focused in general, I was wondering whether or not it would be best to go to programs that are instead renowned for being clinical focused such as NYU and applying to Phd programs after gaining several years in clinical work and gaining an accreditation such as a LCSW. .

Accordingly, I was also wondering not only what programs are best for research in case I am mistaken about my earlier understandings, but what programs would be best for me and my goals in particular. My dream professor to work with is somebody like Jerome C. Wakefield at NYU who also studies the philosophy of social work and philosophy of psychopathology while maintaining a heavily mental health focus, so I am leaning towards NYU of course, but I am curious what the rest of the forum would advise me to do further research on. Thank you folks for the help in advance and have a pleasant day!

[Adelaide9216]

Hello,

I live in Canada and am unsure in terms of actual specific schools programs, but here, most MSW programs have a "field" option and a "thesis" option. Due to the fact that I had prior "field" and work experience, I have chosen a "thesis" option in order to gain that research experience, in the event that I'd decide to pursue a Ph.D. (I have decided to pursue a Ph.D. for Fall 2019). I must say however that I feel lucky to have gotten that work/field experience before, because it informed my research interests. However, you seem to know what you want to study and to know where you're going which is already a big plus and will help you to stay motivated all along.

I have also been told that at the graduate level, if you want to do research, it's better to look for the expertise of a specific professor you want to work with. But it's always nice if they are a person that is easy to get along with as well as an expert in their field.

I'll let others from the US jump in though.

 

 

[TheCrow]

My own experience is that MSW programs in the US are not research oriented in the least, and there is very little time for you to do real research, since you are so busy with your field placements (which do not, at all, do research, even if they claim to do so). Classes are not research oriented and give you no time to do research, not to mention that faculty at top schools are often uninterested in master's students who want to do research.

I think one big question to ask yourself is whether you need the MSW. There are options to get a PhD directly (which is intended to teach you to do research and is funded), rather than getting what is usually quite an expensive MSW that does not prepare you for research. Of course, the trade offs are that other master's or doctoral degrees may not lead directly to employment or licensure. 

If you do decide to get an MSW with the intention of doing research, you are going to have to advocate for yourself vigorously to have a radically different program of study than most students because your goals are different. This means pushing to do PhD courses in research design and methods (such as statistics and qualitative methods), because it is hard to be useful to faculty members are learn how to be a researcher without these skills. Asking to do a second year field placement as a research assistant to a faculty member.

I published during my master's program and actually got a rather large research grant, but no one in my highly ranked program wanted to work with master's students (beyond having them basically do data entry as their research assistantships), and I had to work with a faculty member in the medical school. To be honest, however, I would not have been a position to get the grant or do the research if I had not had a quantitative undergrad and had not taken classes in other divisions of the University during my master's.

[curiousfuture]

7 minutes ago, TheCrow said:

My own experience is that MSW programs in the US are not research oriented in the least, and there is very little time for you to do real research, since you are so busy with your field placements (which do not, at all, do research, even if they claim to do so). Classes are not research oriented and give you no time to do research, not to mention that faculty at top schools are often uninterested in master's students who want to do research.

I think one big question to ask yourself is whether you need the MSW. There are options to get a PhD directly (which is intended to teach you to do research and is funded), rather than getting what is usually quite an expensive MSW that does not prepare you for research. Of course, the trade offs are that other master's or doctoral degrees may not lead directly to employment or licensure. 

If you do decide to get an MSW with the intention of doing research, you are going to have to advocate for yourself vigorously to have a radically different program of study than most students because your goals are different. This means pushing to do PhD courses in research design and methods (such as statistics and qualitative methods), because it is hard to be useful to faculty members are learn how to be a researcher without these skills. Asking to do a second year field placement as a research assistant to a faculty member.

I published during my master's program and actually got a rather large research grant, but no one in my highly ranked program wanted to work with master's students (beyond having them basically do data entry as their research assistantships), and I had to work with a faculty member in the medical school. To be honest, however, I would not have been a position to get the grant or do the research if I had not had a quantitative undergrad and had not taken classes in other divisions of the University during my master's.

Would you recommend getting an MSW program in Canada then or some other English speaking country? The first poster mentioned that in Canada they offer one a thesis option that lets them do research, so that seems appealing to me.  Also, how do you account for what feels to me to be the "typical route" to getting a social work PhD (at least judging from this forum), which is getting an MSW, working for a few years then applying to the doctoral programs? Did those folks even focus on research at all during their Masters, or did they just focus on other roles to get them jobs in the interim, then learn how to do any research through their PhD program? If U.S. MSW programs in general don't teach you research, is it even meaningful to choose a pricier out of state MSW program to "better" your Phd prospects versus a cheaper in state school?

[Adelaide9216]

My experience has been that I did a social-worky program in CEGEP (which is specific to the province of Quebec, it's a step between high school and undergraduate university studies) and that program allowed me to have a lot of field placements because it was geared towards heading to the job market rather than to university (at that moment, I did not know if I wanted to go to university which is why I chose that program). So I worked in the field as a student during and after that CEGEP degree. So when I got into university, I already had a few years of work experience under my belt + I did a lot of volunteer work prior to that. So when I got into grad school after my BSW, I realized that I wanted to do research and choose the "thesis" option in my MSW which means: no field placements. However, I am the only student in my program (cohort of approx. 30 MSW students) who chose that route. 99% of the students in my cohort want to be clinicians or community workers. Work on the ground in other words. I still took the same courses as my cohort for the most part. We had two mandatory research courses, but that was it, research was not really part of the vocabulary of my professors because most students don't chose that path and most students in my cohort aren't interested into research at all.  So it's not typical for social workers to choose the research route. Most social workers work on the ground.

However, I cannot stress how much we need researchers in social work. We have an expertise and a way of analyzing social issues that is very macro and embedded into other "bigger" things than simply personal failures. So I do believe that more social workers need to do research so we can bring that perspective and expertise to the table. If that's what you really want to do, there are ways to get involved into research either as a RA/TA, in labs or even in associations of students from different universities who work on the topic you want to study (you can ask for recommendations about those types of associations to your supervisor, they often allow students to be members and sit on committees). I also took a graduate option in gender and women's studies which allowed me to meet other "research-oriented" students from all across campus. I am sure these types of options exist as well in the US. You would need to look into the specifics of the universities you want to apply to.

One thing I did was looking for FB groups of current students in the programs I am interested in and contact the admins of those groups to ask them questions about the program, prior to applying. It's been very useful and most people are willing to help and answer your questions, especially in social work. Maybe it would help you to find answers to your specifics questions. 

 

 

[Adelaide9216]

59 minutes ago, TheCrow said:

My own experience is that MSW programs in the US are not research oriented in the least, and there is very little time for you to do real research, since you are so busy with your field placements (which do not, at all, do research, even if they claim to do so). Classes are not research oriented and give you no time to do research, not to mention that faculty at top schools are often uninterested in master's students who want to do research.

I think one big question to ask yourself is whether you need the MSW. There are options to get a PhD directly (which is intended to teach you to do research and is funded), rather than getting what is usually quite an expensive MSW that does not prepare you for research. Of course, the trade offs are that other master's or doctoral degrees may not lead directly to employment or licensure. 

If you do decide to get an MSW with the intention of doing research, you are going to have to advocate for yourself vigorously to have a radically different program of study than most students because your goals are different. This means pushing to do PhD courses in research design and methods (such as statistics and qualitative methods), because it is hard to be useful to faculty members are learn how to be a researcher without these skills. Asking to do a second year field placement as a research assistant to a faculty member.

I published during my master's program and actually got a rather large research grant, but no one in my highly ranked program wanted to work with master's students (beyond having them basically do data entry as their research assistantships), and I had to work with a faculty member in the medical school. To be honest, however, I would not have been a position to get the grant or do the research if I had not had a quantitative undergrad and had not taken classes in other divisions of the University during my master's.

Yes, you can fast-track from a BA to a PhD, some people do it, especially if they have very high grades, but it might be difficult in the long run because you don't get to have the prior experience of doing an actual thesis and learn the basics of the research process. Being in graduate school is very different than being an undergraduate program and you need to learn how you best function, learn, process and work through the process which is not something you can really know before actually doing it. I could've fast-tracked but decided not to do so because I really wanted to learn the research process and learn my way of producing a thesis. I think I would've felt lost if I had just fast-tracked directly from my BSW to a PhD. I also read there are also higher chances of quitting the program by students when they do fast-track. However, some people do fast-track and are fine in the long run. It really depends. I would never tell anyone not to do it, if that's what they think is best for them.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Adelaide9216

[TheCrow]

On 6/28/2018 at 6:41 PM, Adelaide9216 said:

Yes, you can fast-track from a BA to a PhD, some people do it, especially if they have very high grades, but it might be difficult in the long run because you don't get to have the prior experience of doing an actual thesis and learn the basics of the research process. Being in graduate school is very different than being an undergraduate program and you need to learn how you best function, learn, process and work through the process which is not something you can really know before actually doing it. I could've fast-tracked but decided not to do so because I really wanted to learn the research process and learn my way of producing a thesis. I think I would've felt lost if I had just fast-tracked directly from my BSW to a PhD. I also read there are also higher chances of quitting the program by students when they do fast-track. However, some people do fast-track and are fine in the long run. It really depends. I would never tell anyone not to do it, if that's what they think is best for them.

To clarify, I meant a PhD in a field other than social work. Going from a bachelor's degree to a PhD in social work is not really a thing in the US. There are also basically no MSW programs in the US with a thesis option, unlike Canada or other common wealth countries.

 

On 6/28/2018 at 5:58 PM, curiousfuture said:

Would you recommend getting an MSW program in Canada then or some other English speaking country? The first poster mentioned that in Canada they offer one a thesis option that lets them do research, so that seems appealing to me.  Also, how do you account for what feels to me to be the "typical route" to getting a social work PhD (at least judging from this forum), which is getting an MSW, working for a few years then applying to the doctoral programs? Did those folks even focus on research at all during their Masters, or did they just focus on other roles to get them jobs in the interim, then learn how to do any research through their PhD program? If U.S. MSW programs in general don't teach you research, is it even meaningful to choose a pricier out of state MSW program to "better" your Phd prospects versus a cheaper in state school?

I don't have much knowledge of these programs. However, I think it would be helpful to look into those options (and some are probably much cheaper than options in the US).

The "typical route" seems dysfunctional to me and basically the cause of many of our current issues. In business, for example, most people do not get an MBA before getting a PhD becoming a tenure-track faculty member in business. The MBA is not intended for that purpose and does not provide training for that purpose (and is quite expensive). In social work, however, you need both. Basically no one who gets the master's degree is interested in research and the degree is not intended for that purpose. Virtually no one interested in the PhD in social work is really interested in the master's degree in social work, except to check that box.

What it seems to me is that many of those who take the "typical route," have received the master's degree, work, get tired of the work (which does not reward them based on their own skills or abilities), and decide to go back for a PhD afterwards. I'm not sure that many people who go into a master's degree in social work thinking they'll want a PhD, and the few that do often know very little about what a PhD is or what the purpose of it is (other than they've heard "it's free" and would like the title of doctor). Then, when these students go back for a PhD, most lack significant research experience or training. So the PhD program pretends to teach them research methods and they pretend to learn them, which is also how many social science PhDs work.

Edited June 30, 2018 by TheCrow

[BackNSchool83]

Hi! So all I want to add to this is that I'm going to the UCLA MSW program here in California and we have a PhD in Social Welfare.

UC Berkely and UCLA have very good Social Welfare PhD programs to consider, highly ranked, and with name recognition.

So for one thing, at least here in California, the MSW degree is accredited by CSWE and the state meaning you can earn a license and practice with the MSW here, but you cannot obtain a license and or practice with a PhD in Social Welfare or Social Work.

So I asked, if I earn the MSW, will that count as credit toward the PhD in Social Welfare if I choose to stay in school and pursue that degree after I complete my MSW? I was told by the department Chair and her advisors during this seminar that NO, it would not count toward that PhD and I would need to go to school an additional 5 years after my 2 year MSW.

Now the good thing about a PhD in SW is that you can work as a professor of social work anywhere you like and conduct research and teach. It's a very different career though and you will not be authorized to conduct any sort of clinical interventions, there is no clinical license for the PhD.

So, while you could earn a masters degree in clinical psychology and perhaps use that toward a masters level license in some states, and then stay in school and earn your PhD and then apply for licensure to practice as a clinical psychologist, you cannot apply for any such license with a PhD in Social Work or Social Welfare, at least in California.

Edited July 1, 2018 by BackNSchool83

[Dansir]

This article that came out earlier this year helped a ton in deciding what program to attend for my MSW. It ranks 75 doctoral programs by h index, scholarly output, faculty productivity and publications. If i was you I'd go by this list as it is a lot more accurate since US News & World Report rankings are very very problematic. This method has proven to be the more accurate and concise for rankings and really weeds out the programs that really shouldn't be that well ranked! Programs that are PH D are going to be more research focused while D.S.W. degrees are more profession oriented I believe.

The rankings are by the works cited

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321981315_Comparing_reputation_versus_H-index_rankings_of_doctoral_programs

I will chime in and say i think it still does help to go to a school with a heavy research focus, my school seems to really work with graduate students at the MSW level and this was something I really didn't see when visiting other schools and talking to current and former students. And I think it helps my school has smaller class sizes.

I do plan on going back for my PH D. Just not sure if I want to go back at my current school or not.

And my school dropped ranks on the recent US News Report but is still going strong at research.

I do not think its worth the money to go to a out of state school. And to be honest, out of all the NYC area schools I have heard the worse things overall about NYU. So just be careful if you decide to go their I currently live in NYC and i am going out of the city because their are way too many MSW programs in the NYC area that oftentimes desirable field placements are harder to come by.

FYI it oftentimes doesn't matter where you go for your MSW in social work. It is one of those fields where the name of the school won't really benefit you in most circumstances, UNLESS you want to go in academia and pursue doctoral level work, which in that case you definitely need to make sure you go to a program that is recognizable in academic circles and has a reputation for being research driven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Dansir

[MSWadmissionsgirl]

I got my Master's in Social Work from Abilene Christian University, and I actually work there now as the Recruiting and Advising Specialist! Our program is one of 5% of MSW programs that has a required thesis requirement in which you get to work with a committee of three experts specifically assigned to your research as you plan, conduct, and evaluate it while in field.

Also, we pay for graduating students to go present their thesis research (or any other research conducted during their time in the program) at conferences all expenses paid, even up to a year after graduation! If you click on this link, you can also see the tremendous reach of the published theses by our social work students for the past three years. (Theses prior to 2015 were not published online, but were published in print). As you can see on the map, our students' social work research is constantly being downloaded by education, government, and organizational institutions across the world! Also, our faculty are incredible researchers and many are doing incredible internationally-recognized research in various fields within social work. See the following links for more information!  We offer very competitive scholarships and Graduate Assistantships to help students afford school as well.

If you'd like to get more information about our program (and our remote-learning online option), please don't hesitate to email me at socialwork@acu.edu. I'd be happy to give you more information!

List of ACU BSW and MSW Research Presentations and Publications

Faculty member Dr. Wayne Paris conducting research on the very first trials of xenotransplantation

Faculty member Dr. Wayne Paris international presentations on xenotransplantation

Community Research Partnerships

MSW Student Implements State-wide Research Project on Foster Care