Letter writers and choosing seminars

[Indecisive Poet]

I am back with another question! This one is actually relevant to my immediate decisions rather than for applications a year+ in the future. Thanks for being SO consistently helpful, everyone.

Did anyone here use a letter from a professor they did not take a class with/a professor who did not supervise them in any formal way? Was this successful? Does anyone not recommend doing so?

I ask because I am about to start my 1-year MA and there is a particular faculty member I'm very interested in getting to know because his interests are strikingly similar to mine. I've read some of his work and watched some talks of his and his methodology resonates with me a great deal so far. However -- I'm registering for my fall "elective" course soon and the classes I am most excited about and would be most beneficial to me are taught by faculty members whose work I'm not particularly interested in, and the spring semester looks to be the same situation. The bigger issue, though, is that in my program, we are not able to ask a specific faculty member to serve as our dissertation supervisor; the supervisor is assigned to us by the department. It may be that this person is assigned to me based on my topic, but there are other faculty members whose expertise can be said to cover generally the areas I'm interested in as well, so it's certainly not a given.

I guess I have it in my head that a LoR from this person for my PhD applications would be ideal and I'd be remiss not to facilitate that opportunity. If I just form a relationship with this person by going to office hours, would it be reasonable to ask him for a LoR? Would it be better to have 3 LoRs from people who have all worked with me in a formal capacity, observed my performance in class, read my work carefully and graded it?

There are actually several courses for both semesters that are really exciting to me, but the ones I am more interested in are not taught by any of the faculty members on my "top 3-5" radar for relevant interests and interesting work. Would it be wise to choose classes I am less (but still somewhat) interested in, that I think I wouldn't get as much out of, and that I think won't look as appealing on a transcript if they are taught by those more "relevant" faculty members? Should I choose the classes I am most interested in and potentially end up with LoRs from faculty members working in different areas from me? Or could I ask faculty members who haven't really worked with me other than office hour discussion for letters? Would that be a risk?

Edited August 13, 2018 by indecisivepoet

[Warelin]

I think it would be incredibly hard for a professor to write a LoR if they've never supervised you for a research project or had a class. I think it would be nearly impossible for a professor to write you a Strong LoR based on nothing but office hours. I don't think this professor would be able to discuss your research ability, your contributions to class, how you compare to other students, your strengths, skills and qualifications and why they'd recommend you and to what degree.

I think you also risk that professor or their students being annoyed with you because you might be taking some time they could ask questions. I think the scenario could change if you've previously had him for a class or he was a previous supervisor.

Is there a chance that an independent study is offered at your university that you can take in place of a class this semester?

[Indecisive Poet]

3 hours ago, Warelin said:

I think you also risk that professor or their students being annoyed with you because you might be taking some time they could ask questions. I think the scenario could change if you've previously had him for a class or he was a previous supervisor.

Is there a chance that an independent study is offered at your university that you can take in place of a class this semester?

Do you mean if I take up time in office hours with that professor? I guess I am unclear on the etiquette of office hours -- I was thinking it's acceptable to attend office hours with a professor who works in your department but with whom you don't take a class. The coordinator of my program suggested to me that I talk about my dissertation topic with this professor before I begin writing and while I am writing even if he is not my supervisor. But if it's the case that you shouldn't attend office hours with a faculty member with whom you don't work, that certainly changes things for me and I think I would want to sacrifice getting more out of my classes for working with this professor.

Unfortunately there are no opportunities for independent study available. The only option I can think of is that this professor is teaching an absolutely ideal-looking class in the spring semester..but it's an undergraduate class. I'm not sure what my university's policy would be on me taking this class or whether that's even something I'd like to do.

But generally -- I understand why it wouldn't make sense to ask someone I haven't worked with for a LoR. I was thinking about a post on here from someone saying they got a LoR from a professor they had met at a conference, but maybe that person ended up working with them on something and then got the letter from them.

It sounds like I'll probably need to forego taking the class I'd really like to take in order to take this professor's class. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by indecisivepoet

[Warelin]

It is certainly acceptable if you go to a professor's office hours without having a class with them.

Office hours are generally limited in their scope and serve several functions. Sometimes, it is required to go to them to have important feedback conversation on papers. Sometimes, it could be used to discuss the professor's research and ask for recommendations based on what the professor has observed in the student's feedback. Sometimes, it is to discuss participation and how to more get more discussion going if the student feels shy. Sometimes, students ask how they can improve their grades or would like to discuss graduate school. If the professor doesn’t believe the student is suited for a Ph.D., the professor might suggest alternatives, might have further discussions regarding how to improve, or might refuse to write a recommendation letter. If the professor knows the applicant well and believes they have the skills to make it through a Ph.D. program, the professor might make recommendations on where to apply and offer you invaluable feedback on how to strengthen your application.

When writing a letter, the professor is lending you their reputation and that is something that most do with care. There are some professors who write neutral letters because it ensures that their stronger letters make a bigger impact when read.

 Developing a meaningful relationship with a professor with just office hours will take you a long time since the professor won't know your research writing ability. A professor has other tasks to perform besides teaching at most universities. It may or may not cross him the wrong way that you're asking him to read your papers in addition to the other tasks required of him by the university. My concern is that some students might not get the attention they need/want if you're trying to build a working relationship this way.

[Glasperlenspieler]

I am completely in agreement with @Warelin's comments.

However, I am also a little confused as to why you're so convinced that the professors whose work interests you are teaching less interesting classes and the professors who are teaching the more interesting courses have research that is less interesting to you. 

If these professors really are producing research that is interesting to you, chances are that they will approach the texts in a given course with similar approaches. Thus, even if the texts themselves are not your top choices, there may still be a lot gained from taking that course and experiencing how the professor engages with the works at hand. After all, presumably you are interested in these professors because of the sorts of questions they are asking and the sorts of methods they use rather than simply because they are interested in the same authors/period as you are. 

Conversely, if a professor is offering a seminar that is so exciting to you that you are contemplating skipping out on a seminar with a professors whose work you find more interesting, why are you so sure that they wouldn't be a good match for your research interests? And why are you so eager to take a class from someone, whose research interests don't match your own? It is important to remember here that the professors' publications lists or research blurbs may only given a partial view on a professors interests or areas of expertise. Just because they haven't published on X yet, doesn't mean they're not intellectually engaged in the topic. Furthermore, if they're offering a seminar on the topic, it's not unlikely that this field could represent a future research area for them.

In short, given the situation you describe, I think it's worth interrogating your preconceptions about your relative interest in the research of these professors and the seminars they are offering. That's not to say that professor who would make a good advisor for you could never teach a boring class, but I tend to think there is at least some correlation between research and the graduate seminars one offers. 

 

[Indecisive Poet]

@Warelin - this response is wonderful. I'm now certain this isn't the route to go down, so my next line of thinking is addressed below...

Also, this isn't what I wrote this thread topic for, but since your comments about office hours generally were so helpful: do you have tips on how to approach the initial office hour? I'm great with structured office hours -- i.e. making an appointment to address my paper topic or a problem I'm having -- but I tend to have anxiety around the type of visit during which I introduce myself, ask about their research, and tell them about my interests. This is especially true for those faculty members I'm not taking a class with. Should I start that off by just asking them if they can tell me about their work?

@Glasperlenspieler - you bring up great points. I think they are best addressed by providing some more specific context that I didn't want to bog my initial post down with.

53 minutes ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

If these professors really are producing research that is interesting to you, chances are that they will approach the texts in a given course with similar approaches. Thus, even if the texts themselves are not your top choices, there may still be a lot gained from taking that course and experiencing how the professor engages with the works at hand. After all, presumably you are interested in these professors because of the sorts of questions they are asking and the sorts of methods they use rather than simply because they are interested in the same authors/period as you are. 

My fall semester situation is this: there is a literary theory -- general literary theory, somewhat of a survey of several schools -- seminar that I'd love to take because my current interests have much to do with theory and it's my weak area. I didn't take a single theory course as an undergrad and while I've done a lot of learning on my own, I've been incredibly eager to take a formal, structured survey course in literary theory because I just don't feel grounded enough to do the kind of work I want to with it. I'm also concerned that applying to PhD programs without a single theory course on my transcript (especially since I'll be applying with an MA) will be a detriment to my applications, and I'm not sure how convinced they'll be by my ability to grapple with theory just because I display competency with the relevant strand of theory in my SoP or because I casually mention that I've done some of my own reading in it. Now, alternatively, this professor with whom I'm eager to work is teaching two seminars in the fall, both of which would be appealing and exciting for me if this seminar in theory weren't being offered. So it's not that I'm not interested in the seminars he's teaching in the fall; it's that it really feels to me like I NEED to take the theory seminar instead. I'm really quite torn, but it seems like I'd be putting myself at a disadvantage if I didn't. Unfortunately my program has a policy against auditing additional seminars.

53 minutes ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

Conversely, if a professor is offering a seminar that is so exciting to you that you are contemplating skipping out on a seminar with a professors whose work you find more interesting, why are you so sure that they wouldn't be a good match for your research interests? And why are you so eager to take a class from someone, whose research interests don't match your own? It is important to remember here that the professors' publications lists or research blurbs may only given a partial view on a professors interests or areas of expertise. Just because they haven't published on X yet, doesn't mean they're not intellectually engaged in the topic. Furthermore, if they're offering a seminar on the topic, it's not unlikely that this field could represent a future research area for them.

Similarly, it's not that this person's interests have nothing to do with mine at all. I think there is some overlap, I'd get something out of taking the class with him, and I'd be able to discuss my theoretical interests with him. But I also feel that if it were a simple choice between which professor I'd rather have a relationship with, it would absolutely be the one who is not teaching this theory seminar -- to the point that I'd really feel like I'd wasted a big opportunity if I didn't study with him.

The other 2 seminars I know I am taking (they are compulsory but also exciting and useful since they are general courses within my period) are taught by faculty with the same period interest as me. However, there are several faculty members working in this period at my university and these happen to be the ones who are working on subfields and areas that don't interest me very much; there are other faculty members working in my period whose interests more closely align with mine, but they aren't teaching this fall. I think that complaining about these people being my potential letter-writers would be nit-picky and unfounded; I think having 2 LoRs from people working generally in my field -- if not in my more specific areas -- with whom I've taken classes would be perfectly fine. I guess I just feel like to not take a class with this ONE specific professor whose interests are nearly identical to mine would be a poor decision and a waste of that third letter. So that comes down to me foregoing the theory class in the fall, or:

For the spring semester, there is no seminar I'm 100% gung-ho on but several that sound interesting and exciting. Unfortunately, the professor in whom I'm primarily interested is not teaching any. He's teaching an undergraduate course that is my DREAM course (again indicating to me that his work is of great interest to me), but as I mentioned above, I don't know if I can take it (I'll have to reach out to my program director again) and I don't know if it's a good idea to take an undergrad-level class even if I'm allowed to.

I could also hold out on the hope that he'll be assigned as my dissertation mentor, but I think that's unlikely and risky. Writing this out has made me realize it's a question of: is it worse to not take a class with this person I'm so excited about and forego him as a potential letter writer, or to apply to PhD programs with no theory classes on my transcript and write my dissertation and SoP with no formal background in theory, when the projects I'm interested in doing will involve a good deal of it?

Edited August 13, 2018 by indecisivepoet

[Warelin]

14 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

Also, this isn't what I wrote this thread topic for, but since your comments about office hours generally were so helpful: do you have tips on how to approach the initial office hour? I'm great with structured office hours -- i.e. making an appointment to address my paper topic or a problem I'm having -- but I tend to have anxiety around the type of visit during which I introduce myself, ask about their research, and tell them about my interests. This is especially true for those faculty members I'm not taking a class with. Should I start that off by just asking them if they can tell me about their work?

I think having specific questions in mind would be extremely helpful. Research can be very broad and incorporate a lot. Not having specific questions at the grad level might signal that you haven't done much research and are just looking to try to connect with as many professors as possible. Research is a big aspect of a dissertation so you'll want to show you can engage with their research and ask thoughtful questions. It'll take a bit of work as you'll try to merge the two but I think you'll have much better luck with getting him to agree.

Is there a chance he is giving a lecture open to the public? Might be the easiest way to introduce yourself and ask him thoughtful follow-up questions.

Also, please allow him to find a way to say "no" comfortably by using strong language and allowing him to disagree if he doesn't think your research interests aren't a match or if he says he's too busy.

[Glasperlenspieler]

@indecisivepoet, your dilemma makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not convinced you *need* to take the theory class, although I certainly understand the motivation to do so. I seriously doubt the lack of a theory class would sink an otherwise strong application. The caveat here being that if you feel unprepared to discuss the relevant theoretical matters in your SOP and writing sample, that may be a problem. 

On the flip-side, neither do I think the absence of this professor's letter of recommendation will sink your application. If you have three strong recommendations from other professors, nobody is going to ask why you don't have one from X. If this professor is a very big name in the field, then it's possible that such a letter would give your application an added boost, but then only if it's a strong one. 

In short, I wouldn't stress too much about having the perfect transcripts or the ideal letters of recommendation. Do what's best for your own intellectual development. In the end, you'll get admitted to a PhD program because they think you have the potential to produce a high quality scholarly work, not because you have the perfectly tailored CV. 

[Indecisive Poet]

58 minutes ago, Warelin said:

I think having specific questions in mind would be extremely helpful. Research can be very broad and incorporate a lot. Not having specific questions at the grad level might signal that you haven't done much research and are just looking to try to connect with as many professors as possible. Research is a big aspect of a dissertation so you'll want to show you can engage with their research and ask thoughtful questions. It'll take a bit of work as you'll try to merge the two but I think you'll have much better luck with getting him to agree.

Is there a chance he is giving a lecture open to the public? Might be the easiest way to introduce yourself and ask him thoughtful follow-up questions.

Also, please allow him to find a way to say "no" comfortably by using strong language and allowing him to disagree if he doesn't think your research interests aren't a match or if he says he's too busy.

I think the questions I have for him come from a place of knowing I'm interested in what he's doing, but a lot of it being over my head. This is the part that gives me anxiety: knowing I have some grasp on what I want to research and some idea of what he (and others) is (are) doing but knowing that I still (no matter how much reading I do this year) have barely scratched the surface of what's going on in these areas. Sometimes I doubt that I should even pursue my interests because they're so philosophically and theoretically inclined and I've done so little work in these areas. When I think of the types of questions I'd have for someone like him, they're less beautifully articulated and thoughtful questions about the nuances of his methodology or arguments going on in his subfields, and more questions about how I can learn more about those areas, how I can feel like I have somewhat of a grasp on things, what sorts of things I should be reading, what the larger questions guiding his particular research are -- things like that. And I just don't know if it's okay for me to ask those kinds of things, and indeed how to do so without sounding like an idiot.

I'm confused a little bit by the wording of your last statement: when you say "allow him to say no" -- are you referring to his potentially writing me a letter? Do you think my research interests should be a "match" with all the faculty members who write me LoRs? I don't think they will be. The way I've asked about LoRs in the past was just chit-chatting with professors about my plans for graduate school and asking for advice on applying, and they've all offered to write me a letter without me needing to ask. In the future, I'm not sure what I'll say. I tend to get overly apologetic when I ask others for favors and might end up saying something like "Do you think you might be willing to write me a strong letter of recommendation for my applications? If you have too much going on this semester or don't think that's something you would be able to take on, that's absolutely fine" -- not sure if that kind of language would be appropriate. Also -- I know in this thread I've come across as taking these potential letter-writers for granted and I should have phrased things differently. I know these people are only that -- potential letter writers. What I'm really interested in is learning from this person. But: as an undergrad I thought precisely ZERO about who I was taking my classes with and got myself into a really less than ideal situation when it came time for LoRs, and I don't want to make that mistake twice. Hope that makes sense ?

28 minutes ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

Do what's best for your own intellectual development. In the end, you'll get admitted to a PhD program because they think you have the potential to produce a high quality scholarly work, not because you have the perfectly tailored CV. 

Thanks, @Glasperlenspieler. I guess my question now becomes: do I think I would get more out of a structured theory course or out of studying under this professor? I'll have to spend the next week or so thinking that through.

Edited August 13, 2018 by indecisivepoet

[Warelin]

28 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

I think the questions I have for him come from a place of knowing I'm interested in what he's doing, but a lot of it being over my head. This is the part that gives me anxiety: knowing I have some grasp on what I want to research and some idea of what he (and others) is (are) doing but knowing that I still (no matter how much reading I do this year) have barely scratched the surface of what's going on in these areas.

Nobody expects you to know everything about a field. Being aware that you're barely scratching the surface is a good thing. It shows awareness. If you can find a way to bridge your interests with his, I think you'll go far.

 

30 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

Sometimes I doubt that I should even pursue my interests because they're so philosophically and theoretically inclined and I've done so little work in these areas.

I can just about guarantee that a lot of people feel this way. I can almost guarantee that there will always be someone will less experience than you in any given area. Schools look for fit, an ability to succeed in their school and how well you fit into the cohort they're building.

 

32 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

When I think of the types of questions I'd have for someone like him, they're less beautifully articulated and thoughtful questions about the nuances of his methodology or arguments going on in his subfields, and more questions about how I can learn more about those areas, how I can feel like I have somewhat of a grasp on things, what sorts of things I should be reading, what the larger questions guiding his particular research are -- things like that. And I just don't know if it's okay for me to ask those kinds of things, and indeed how to do so without sounding like an idiot.

If we could all beautifully articulate questions 100 percent of the time, there wouldn't be a need for Grad School. You'll need to ask questions higher than you would at the undergrad level but I think there's a lot of value in being great at close reading that will help guide you with really great questions. I think the easiest way to find magazines that you're interested in to search for articles you're interested in and seeing where they appear and other journals that they reference. You'll notice certain trends appearing over a certain amount of time. Pay close attention to those journals as they're likely considered to be high-impact journals in your area.

 

42 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

I'm confused a little bit by the wording of your last statement: when you say "allow him to say no" -- are you referring to his potentially writing me a letter?

I am.

 

43 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

Do you think my research interests should be a "match" with all the faculty members who write me LoRs?

Not at all. I think it's more important to ensure that all your recommendations come from individuals who have a Ph.D. and are preferably tenured or tenure track. While it may be helpful to have at least one professor with similar interests, I can assure you it is not required. My recommendations all came from people with very different interests.

 

49 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

"Do you think you might be willing to write me a strong letter of recommendation for my applications? If you have too much going on this semester or don't think that's something you would be able to take on, that's absolutely fine"

I think a simple " I plan on applying to PH.D. programs. Do you believe you know me well enough to write me strong letters of recommendation?" would work really well here. It allows them opportunities to ask follow-up questions or  for them to suggest you seek a letter from someone else who may know you better.

 

55 minutes ago, indecisivepoet said:

What I'm really interested in is learning from this person. But: as an undergrad I thought precisely ZERO about who I was taking my classes with and got myself into a really less than ideal situation when it came time for LoRs, and I don't want to make that mistake twice.

Life is a learning process. I can say that I've been there but I think it's these experiences which help us grow and ultimately shape us into who we become.

[Indecisive Poet]

Thanks, @Warelin. And thanks to everyone for being so patient with all my questions lately! I've felt guilty for asking them all but I really don't have another community anything like this one where I can voice these questions and insecurities, so I was (and still am) incredibly excited when I discovered TGC. In this case, I wouldn't have known that attempting to learn a significant amount from and build a relationship with a faculty member only through office hours is really not an option. At any rate, I'm finding that I have fewer questions as I become more confident.

I ended up decided to take one of the "less interesting" seminars with the professor with whom I'd really like to study. I will ask my GC if I can take his spring undergraduate seminar instead -- the more I look at the syllabus, the more I realize I will probably never see a seminar so in line with my interests again -- but I'm not hopeful about that working out, and I've now thought things through enough to be happy with taking his course in the fall and something else in the spring, and adding basic literary theory texts to my ever-growing independent reading list.