MA vs MBA vs MPA vs MIA&MBA?

[carpecc]

Has anyone applied or enrolled in a dual MIA/MBA program or something similar? What are your thoughts on it?

The reason I ask is that some people say that an MBA is better for getting IR jobs these days for a couple of reasons:

• 
  
  
• Everyone knows what an MBA means, an MA in International Affairs with a Economic Development focus takes a little more explanation.
  
• Governments and NGOs are increasingly pulling talent from MBAs and the private sector.
  
• An MBA teaches hard administrative, accounting and management skills.
  
• More job flexibility, can swing non-profit, govt or business if necessary.
  
• Can demand higher salary.
  

Right now I've gotten into some schools, but I'm probably not going to enroll this fall because of some work and woman commitments. So the question is defer, or reapply? I'd defer SIPA, but now I'm thinking about re applying and applying for a dual MIA/MBA track at Columbia or some place similar. I'm really interested in curriculum of the IR MA and development issues, so I'm definitely not interested in just an MBA.

Then again, an MPA might be a better solution: issues, theory and admin skills.

What are your thoughts?

Edited March 18, 2010 by carpecc

[le_neocon]

Wow, so we're all back to square one. I come from the private sector where I've worked with Harvard MBAs and people of the like. MBA is the only way to go. Some partners in my company are PHDs, some just have an undergraduate degree, while some are MBAs. But it ultimately comes down to

a. what we wanna study - we are all sure about this so MIA +1

b. where we want to go eventually. If we're not sure about this, then MBA is the safer bet

This is obviously a very long debate, if you factor in costs, effort it takes to get a top 5 MBA etc. I really don't see a lot in the MBAs that work in my place. It really is upto the individual what you want to make out of your MBA/MIA. A degree won't get you there.

That said, you can apply for the MBA while doing your MIA first year at SIPA , right ?

[carpecc]

le_neocon, thanks for the great reply, that's exactly what I'm looking for. I definitely know what I want to do, so yea, the pure MBA is out for me.

So on the one hand you say MBA is the way to go, on the other you say you don't see any MBAs where you work? I'm assuming you moved from the private to the public/non profit sector? I'm assuming it's very IR related?

You bring up a really good point, the MBA is quite generic. There are so many MBA grads these days, especially with the economy, everyone's going back to school. That reminds me what some MBAs I know say: the MBA isn't enough anymore, you have to have some extra skills/specializations. My bro in law is an MBA and his business has MBAs, some from very good schools, shoring up at his office looking for FREE internships. These are MBA graduates.

I didn't realize MBAs are a different price point. Holy s#$%! They start at 40k and go up 80. Check out the Harvard price tag http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/costsummary.html.

I also didn't realize that SIPA lets you apply for an MBA the second year, that's something worth examining.

So is there a value to couple an IR degree with an MBA?

[le_neocon]

Sorry carpecc. I guess that post was a little confusing. What I meant was that there are a lot of MBAs at the place I work. And I really don't see anything special in them.

Its just that more often than not an MBA is one step you're forced to take. It really is, as you put it, generic. Also, what makes an MBA click is that some private companies do insist on MBAs only when they hire at Associate/Consultant levels. And thats because MBAs from the good schools do have a lot of varied experience behind them. As for them coming into IR, I'm sure they'll be asked why they didn't study international affairs/economics themselves.

I think in most policy schools, you have a variety of non profit/government/international jobs etc. to choose from. You'd be first choice there. At the same time, you can tailor make your course to make yourself compete for private sector jobs. It will be difficult, but judging by the numbers, if you know what you want you can make there too. But at the end of the day, you really can't have it all

[Saladin]

Sorry carpecc. I guess that post was a little confusing. What I meant was that there are a lot of MBAs at the place I work. And I really don't see anything special in them.

Its just that more often than not an MBA is one step you're forced to take. It really is, as you put it, generic. Also, what makes an MBA click is that some private companies do insist on MBAs only when they hire at Associate/Consultant levels. And thats because MBAs from the good schools do have a lot of varied experience behind them. As for them coming into IR, I'm sure they'll be asked why they didn't study international affairs/economics themselves.

I think in most policy schools, you have a variety of non profit/government/international jobs etc. to choose from. You'd be first choice there. At the same time, you can tailor make your course to make yourself compete for private sector jobs. It will be difficult, but judging by the numbers, if you know what you want you can make there too. But at the end of the day, you really can't have it all

le_neocon, I agree with your analysis at the end. Yes, policy schools do open up private sector jobs, but I think it would be foolish to go for IR solely with the private sector in mind. If that's the case then the MBA is the best option. The only thing is, doing MPP/IR gives you the private option AS WELL as the non profit/multilateral/govt options. What do you think?

On a different note, Im also considering both SIPA and SAIS, difference being Im still on the waitlist for SAIS! Which way are you leaning? Im a little concerned about SIPA's supposed 'cash cow' reputation. On the other hand, I think Columbia is a more well known school globally. Plus its NY location would be a big plus as far as networking with multilateral orgs is concerned. What say you?

[stilesg57]

...the MBA is quite generic. There are so many MBA grads these days, especially with the economy, everyone's going back to school. That reminds me what some MBAs I know say: the MBA isn't enough anymore, you have to have some extra skills/specializations. My bro in law is an MBA and his business has MBAs, some from very good schools, shoring up at his office looking for FREE internships. These are MBA graduates...

So is there a value to couple an IR degree with an MBA?

I'm also sensing that the MBA isn't what it used to be given our current economy and the recent flood of MBA grads. 5 years ago yeah, the MBA was the more versatile degree. But I don't think so anymore. While I'm seeing an employer demand for MBA skills I'm still glad I'm at an MPP program for what I want to do.

I think there's incredible value in coupling the degrees. That gives the you MBA and all its benefits while also specializing in a specific field and demonstrating your seriousness in that area. The MBA will give you a business-skills advantage over the IRs and MPPs while the MPP/MPA/IR degree will be the edge over all the other generic MBAs by showing you're seriously committed to your specific field.

Just my thoughts. I am currently applying to an MBA program under this reasoning.

[bestfootforward]

I'm also sensing that the MBA isn't what it used to be given our current economy and the recent flood of MBA grads. 5 years ago yeah, the MBA was the more versatile degree. But I don't think so anymore. While I'm seeing an employer demand for MBA skills I'm still glad I'm at an MPP program for what I want to do.

I think there's incredible value in coupling the degrees. That gives the you MBA and all its benefits while also specializing in a specific field and demonstrating your seriousness in that area. The MBA will give you a business-skills advantage over the IRs and MPPs while the MPP/MPA/IR degree will be the edge over all the other generic MBAs by showing you're seriously committed to your specific field.

Just my thoughts. I am currently applying to an MBA program under this reasoning.

good points, but what about the extra year's worth of debt?

[le_neocon]

I also think the MBA is a ticket to a two year long networking event. Theres clearly no real academic knowledge you're going to get in an MBA. I just believe, given the right environment and if you use your resources well, you can do well without an MBA as well. MBAs do well at places which require only MBAs to fit into their corporate hierarchy. Some companies hire MBAs from good schools just to improve their reputation. Whereas for things like entrepreneurship, what you need is a sustainable idea and a huge ability to back yourself. Some of the best entrepreneurs of our day aren't necessarily MBAs from Harvard.

That said, the applicant pool for MBA programs these days is extremely high quality, some of the best talent there is. So these people will inevitably tend to do well.

[coaks]

good points, but what about the extra year's worth of debt?

Depending on the field you enter, MBA will definitely add more to your salary than another masters' degree. While private consulting firms working for public/NGOs definitely do hire the MPP/MIA/PhD set, they pursue MBAs far more aggressively in general. I suppose there are some positions at those firms where they are definitely looking for the MPP/PhD instead of the MBA. However, if you are unsure of what your future career path will be, the MBA will open more high salary doors in the private sector than the MPP will.

I've also known a lot of MBAs that were able to really get some good loan breaks by virtue of having an MBA. I'm actually not sure if MPPs can walk into banks post-graduation and secure a 30 year timeline with a fixed interest rate below 2%, but I know quite a few MBAs that were able to do that recently (before 2008). I'm not saying that you can't get that type of deal, I just know a LOT of MBAs that have gotten to the point where it makes more sense right now to pay interest-only on their loans because they are making more money investing it in low-risk securities then they are losing keeping it outstanding. Just food for thought.

Oh and lastly while ROI studies on MBAs are tragically flawed in that they don't control for what would have been the natural salary progression of people in the same fields if they did not pursue the MBA, I've seen ROI for the median MBA graduate from a national top 50 at less than 5 years after including foregone salary and cost of attendance. But again, none of these surveys ever tend to model the salary progression of someone that didn't go to school. My hunch though is that MBA is still a very worthwhile investment. And if you can get the same degree in one year, especially early in your career and at a school where you've been given good funding for your MPP terms, it's probably a good idea for a lot of careers. I guess it takes some reflection on your personal goals and plans.

I personally intend to get both degrees, if at all possible.

[sacdude]

Hi All,

I found this year old thread, and since I have similar questions/ confusions, I thought I will reignite it

I am planning a career shift- The world of international business diplomacy excites me more than anything else these days, especially with a lot of interesting stuff happening in the political world, and how its impacting businesses and investments.

My long term goal- To be a liason between public affairs and the private world- by making key FDI decisions (say) or consulting on a govt project that eventually leads to socio economic development in the a 3rd world country (preferably)

My confusion-

• Should I bother applying to to a mundane MBA program at one of the big schools , even after the fact the I have done a lot of pre-reqs in my masters- like basic finance, accounting etc.? Should I waste time doing some core mba courses again, especially the ones I have already done and/or do not want to do. Is ivy league MBA brand that valuable, that I should just go for it however costly it is or even if it has some stuff that i do not want.
  
  
  • Should I apply for one of the great IR programs like the ones at SIPA, Fletcher MIB, HKS, Georgetown etc? - Because I already have partial business education and experience- this is more tempting and cheaper. I am skeptical only because of limited job opportunities compared to traditional MBA, even in the IR world, because a top firm would go for a ivy league MBA vs ivy league IR (is this true?). Also, I am an international citizen, so I cannot assume the whole world of jobs is open to me. Also, not sure how many electives do these IR schools let you take from the B-schools.

  OR

  [*]Should I just forget about school and try for jobs in intl business diplomacy just like that http://forum.thegradcafe.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'>

  General Profile (M/26)-

  • 2-3 years experience in Inventory Optimization, Resource Planning, Procurement, forecast management, and operational indicators for a Fortune 100 firm (tech industry)

  • Master’s in Industrial Management, specializing in Operations and Supply Chain Management (from a top 25 public university in the US); Bachelors of Engineering in Electrical & Electronics Engineering from India

  • Ample volunteering and event management experiences with Non-Profit / International Development Organizations

  • Strong data analysis and analytical reasoning skills; Proficient in optimization and statistical software packages,GMAT- 710

  Please help.

[carpecc]

• Should I just forget about school and try for jobs in intl business diplomacy just like that http://forum.thegradcafe.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'>

Sacdude,

I think this is a tough choice. I'm probably not the best person to answer this question (an older accomplished professional in your target field is who you should really ask), but I've got some thoughts.

First of all you should go for choice 3 first: just apply for a job. You already have an MA, why not? You can always apply for another IR MA if you want.

As for me, the content of the MBA and IR degrees are completely different. MBA is similar from school to school, studying management and admin for the private sector. The IR/MPA degree varies widely. It can be similar to an econ MA, a forestry degree, or a humanities research MA depending on what school you go to and which area of study you pick.

In the end I decided against the MBA because:

1. The network is completely different. At the top MBA schools less than 10% go into non profit and government, for SIPA it's over 50%. I didn't want to be the odd man out, I want to be around colleagues in my field.

2. The coursework is completely different. I look at SIPA's coursework and there's so many classes I like, I can't make up my mind on which ones to pick. With an MBA, while I can see the benefit of some classes like HR management and Accounting, other such as "corporate communications" or "financial management for listed companies" sound like hell to me.

3. My background and career goals make me better suited to a good IR program then an MBA program. I'd have trouble getting into a top MBA school.

4. Many of the people I know and meet feel lukewarm about the classwork in their MBAs. A friend at stern was telling me "The best thing about an MBA is getting in, the second best thing is getting out." Others tell me that overall they didn't learn anything critical but it got them a job. This might just be cynisim though. I've also met some MBAs really struggling getting jobs now, the degree is so generic. However the economy is picking up, that might just be a recession thing.

5. I think there are some administrative strengths in an MBA curriculum, but if I need these I can do a one year MBA or take classes part time in the areas I need down the road.

Number 3 is important to think about. The top 15 or so MBA programs are wicked selective, accepting 10% or less of applicants. I've known some what I thought were competitive applicants get rejected by all the top 10 schools. The top IR programs have acceptance rates of 30% or even hirer, which is comparable to journalism, public health or some other professional MAs. What this means is though, if you can get into a top MBA program, while it might not cover the public policy items you want, it could be a more competitive credential than an IR degree.

Also some of the MBA programs are very flexible and have a lot of room for electives outside of the core MBA classes. Some programs even encourage you to take classes in different fields meaning you could get the policy training you want. Chicago, Hauss and Yale come to mind.

Overall though I feel an IR or public policy degree will give you better tools for your target career. If you already have an MA and some solid work experience, then you're competitive for top programs. If you can get fully funded to SIPA or Woody Woo, then that could be a great time.

Remember, ask some pros in your field, they're more qualified to give advice on this.

[SaraDC]

Hi sacdude,

I can respond to some of your questions. During the last application round I applied to both MA and MBA programs hoping to pursue a dual (or joint) degree. I only had mixed success with MBA admissions, so eventually I decided to start at SAIS in the fall and reapply to a few MBA programs during my first semester.

You said a couple things that jump out at me:

1) You're coming from a private sector background - this is valuable. I only have public sector experience, so for me, an MBA would likely play a larger role in my ability to potentially transfer to the private sector post-graduation. But as someone with this background already, you'll likely have more mobility with "just" an MA degree. Since you already have a masters degree (in something which sounds very business-oriented to me), I think you'll find that a lot of your quant/business skill boxes are already checked for potential employers.

2) You're a non-US (presumably Indian?) citizen. Do you want to work in the US or in your home country? You're right to say that being an international citizen limits your job options as they relate to the US government (and even some US government contractors). On the other hand, you have other options available to you that are far less available to me as a US citizen (IMF, WB (check out the IFC), and regional MDBs). Depending on what country you're from, you might also be interested in central bank/development agencies within your government.

To respond to your last question - I'd suggest identifying exactly what jobs specifically you're interested in. You may find you need another degree, but you'll at least be able to determine what kind of degree is required for the jobs that appeal to you. When all is said it done, the degree decision depends on what you want to do. If you want to focus on the consulting side of the equation, maybe you'll need the networking and structured b-school recruiting/internship schedule. But if you're more interested in the public affairs/policy side - an IR MA will definitely make a difference.

When you research the MA programs, you'll find that some are more private/public sector oriented as well. As you probably know, some have pre-established dual degree programs. These programs have a lot to offer, but they do mean an extra year in school and +$80k or so. Its a great setup for some career paths, but for some of the jobs that you might be interested in (particularly on the development side) the extra debt load likely does not make sense.

Good luck!