$$$

[stofo]

I need some advice...I'm planning on going to Claremont, the only school that accepted me. I've roughly figured that I'll have about $70,000 of loans when I graduate, after I do all the assistanships and work studies I can. Is this worth it? I don't like student loans, but I think I could handle the monthly payments if it were a 20 year loan. I'm confident I will have steady employment when I graduate making aboutt 30k/year. I'm also thinking of just reapplying next year for state schools where I would have better chances for funding. Any thoughts? Anyone else dealing with financial aid issues?

[littlenova]

Holy Mother of Pearl that is alot of debt. I would say it's worth it if you were going to like Yale or Columbia or something...but, I dunno. Hmmm.

This is INCLUDING the TA jobs and stuff? Have you spoken with them about aid? They need to at least offer you something.

Don't get me wrong...I am all about incurring debt for education, because I think it is an investment....It's not looked at as bad debt by most lenders (for home purchases, auto loans, credit, etc.) But, I think in this particular field, you have to be careful you don't bite off more than you can chew. There are lots of questions to ask yourself:

Where will you live? (during college and after...Cost of living reallys plays a big factor in making it...)

Do you have a dual income? (Will your spouse/partner have debt as well? Can they help assume some of your debt?)

When will you have time to make work? (If you are working so much to pay off debt...)

What does your entire financial picture look like? (What is your current amount of debt? Do you plan to ever buy a house, have kids, etc.)

It's really a personal question. If you are tapped out currently and are about to take a honkin' load of loans out...IMHO: I would advise against it.

[000era]

my partner has 60k in debt and she has to make around $600 a month payments! fortunately, they approved a freeze for 6 months as she works in the public sector...but obviously it's going to hurt A LOT when we have to start paying.

I would wait, Claremont seems good...not great, and you can find plenty of good (or maybe even great) state schools that will help you out. plus your portfolio will be stronger next year and you'll probably get into more / "better" schools.

good luck!

[stofo]

There must a lot of other people in the same situation. These private schools do not offer a lot of aid. For example, I know SAIC costs about $120,000 for 2 years of tuition plus room and board and everything else you need. They only offer one full scholarship and maybe one or two partial scholarships per department. If you plug those numbers into a loan calculator, your paying over a thousand dollars a month for 10 years. I think it would be difficult to pay this even graduating from medical or law school, how will you do it with an art degree?

[crey01]

simply put...never worry about the money. You will regret it! Go where you want to go and take on those loans...everyone is so scared of being in debt, its no big deal as long as you are ok with paying off the loans for a long time. People don't have patience and they get scared...this process is about your education and you. NOT about money. I know that money is an issue and sometimes a factor but if you are approved for the loans, take them, go make artwork, and pay them off. I might be faced with going to the school of my dreams this fall while being neck deep in debt or going to a good school with a free ride. As appealing as FREE is, it might not make me happy in the long run.

[nathancotephoto]

Ive had to answer all of these questions for myself over the last two years. I applied to a couple private schools last year and decided I will only go where the funding is. When I get out of school I think it would be great to teach and if I dont - I will work. Grind out as much of my own work as possible and try to show like crazy. or at least that is what I dream of doing. What I dont dream of doing is moving back to a Po-dunk town where the rent is cheap and there is NO art scene to speak of just so I can afford the loan payments. I also applied to schools that were 'relatively' less expensive to live so that most of the money I make as a TA can go back into my projects with less reliance on loans.

What do you want to be free to do after you graduate?

Do you have money saved up for after you graduate to offer some buffer from the debt? I wont.

Does this school offer career opportunities that out weigh the cost of attendance?

If you dont get any funding would you be able to reapply for funding after differing your acceptance for a year? I did that with Rutgers. I sent in my portfolio and resume again in hopes that they will now offer me funding/TA. If they don't - I'm declining their offer.

[grad_wannabe]

simply put...never worry about the money. You will regret it! Go where you want to go and take on those loans...everyone is so scared of being in debt, its no big deal as long as you are ok with paying off the loans for a long time. People don't have patience and they get scared...this process is about your education and you. NOT about money. I know that money is an issue and sometimes a factor but if you are approved for the loans, take them, go make artwork, and pay them off. I might be faced with going to the school of my dreams this fall while being neck deep in debt or going to a good school with a free ride. As appealing as FREE is, it might not make me happy in the long run.

I have to say I disagree completely. Of course you have to worry about money. Are you not an adult who plans to support yourself and pay your own bills? Then yes, you always have to think about the money. This is not some romanticized storybook of the artist starving for their vision. This is your life.

In my own humble opinion, NO it is not worth it to take out so much debt, especially for a painting degree. Painters' primary income comes from teaching. The educational system is already glutted with painters scrambling for the few teaching jobs there are, and those are disappearing at a brisk clip. Have you had much interaction with post-MFA students dealing with mountains of debt and a shrinking job market? I have. It's not a pretty picture. The fear and worry in their eyes actually pushed me away from getting an MFA. Even without any loan payments to make at all, a painter would be have to struggle constantly. WITH such loan enormous payments, I ... I just don't know.

I plugged your hypothetical debt into a payment calculator:

Loan Balance: $70,000.00 Adjusted Loan Balance: $70,000.00 Loan Interest Rate: 6.80% Loan Fees: 0.00% Loan Term: 20 years Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $534.34 Number of Payments: 240

Cumulative Payments: $128,240.42 Total Interest Paid: $58,240.42

You would have to make a payment of over $500 a month for TWENTY YEARS. 500 bucks a month is no small number. That will have a huge effect on where and how you will be able to live. Do you plan to have children? Buy a house? Save up for emergencies? Travel? That 500 bones coming out of your wallet every month won't make any of that easy.

I would recommend finding a compromise: don't enroll at Claremont now. Take a year off, work on your portfolio, and next year apply to more middle-range schools that would be more likely to offer you assistance. Find a happy medium between a good painting program and the price. I know it feels like you're at a precipice now and have to jump, but you don't. A year spent working on your portfolio to get more assistance is a lot easier to handle than two decades paying off a loan you didn't have to take out.

This is all, of course, just my humble opinion. If you're okay with all of that, and you WANT to sacrifice for your work, then go for it. No one can tell you what to do.

Then again, Obama has enacted a lot of new student-loan legislation, including a bill that would forgive student loan debt if they agreed to teach in under-funded schools for 5 or 10 years. That's an option. Look into that.

[atrawickb]

I have to say I disagree completely. Of course you have to worry about money. Are you not an adult who plans to support yourself and pay your own bills? Then yes, you always have to think about the money. This is not some romanticized storybook of the artist starving for their vision. This is your life.

In my own humble opinion, NO it is not worth it to take out so much debt, especially for a painting degree. Painters' primary income comes from teaching. The educational system is already glutted with painters scrambling for the few teaching jobs there are, and those are disappearing at a brisk clip. Have you had much interaction with post-MFA students dealing with mountains of debt and a shrinking job market? I have. It's not a pretty picture. The fear and worry in their eyes actually pushed me away from getting an MFA. Even without any loan payments to make at all, a painter would be have to struggle constantly. WITH such loan enormous payments, I ... I just don't know.

I plugged your hypothetical debt into a payment calculator:

Loan Balance: $70,000.00 Adjusted Loan Balance: $70,000.00 Loan Interest Rate: 6.80% Loan Fees: 0.00% Loan Term: 20 years Minimum Payment: $50.00 Monthly Loan Payment: $534.34 Number of Payments: 240 Cumulative Payments: $128,240.42 Total Interest Paid: $58,240.42

You would have to make a payment of over $500 a month for TWENTY YEARS. 500 bucks a month is no small number. That will have a huge effect on where and how you will be able to live. Do you plan to have children? Buy a house? Save up for emergencies? Travel? That 500 bones coming out of your wallet every month won't make any of that easy.

I would recommend finding a compromise: don't enroll at Claremont now. Take a year off, work on your portfolio, and next year apply to more middle-range schools that would be more likely to offer you assistance. Find a happy medium between a good painting program and the price. I know it feels like you're at a precipice now and have to jump, but you don't. A year spent working on your portfolio to get more assistance is a lot easier to handle than two decades paying off a loan you didn't have to take out.

This is all, of course, just my humble opinion. If you're okay with all of that, and you WANT to sacrifice for your work, then go for it. No one can tell you what to do.

Then again, Obama has enacted a lot of new student-loan legislation, including a bill that would forgive student loan debt if they agreed to teach in under-funded schools for 5 or 10 years. That's an option. Look into that.

i have to say i agree about ditching any romanticized view of some art school trumping all cost.

for a couple of programs, like yale, columbia, risd--the schools with really the best reputations, it may be true that you just go and have faith that the power of those programs reputation will help you work things out on the back end. but even if you go to one of those types of schools there is no guarantee of anything at all. it's just your chances for seeing success in terms of shows and/or getting a teaching gig are significantly higher.

but if you not going to one of those very top programs, and you're not being offered funding, you may put yourself in a very bad way by going to a private program.

i'd recommend looking more into state schools, especially in the state where you already reside. there are a lot of strong programs in the california state school system for example, where you can get residency after one year and significantly chop down your overall costs without sacrificing much if anything in terms of the quality of your experience.

then there are the fully funded programs. the word has gotten out, and they've subsequently gotten extremely difficult to get into because of it, but cornell, usc, and stanford all offer fully-funded programs. it's free to go. you need to take the gre's for stanford, but just do it and apply. obviously their plan to steal away top students from other programs is working and all three of those schools are on their way up the list, in a hurry.

[stofo]

http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml

What do you think about Income Based Repayment?

This sounds too good to be real, I am probably missing something here. According to legislation the President recently passed, monthly loan payments can be based on income, not debt, if you are eligable. According the the calculator, If I make 35k a year after graduating I will only pay about $300 a month for 70k of debt and the loan will be forgiven after 20 years.

[littlenova]

So, you will never have a dual income? Because, they count both incomes when calculating your household income. That's living right at the poverty level...And you could never make more or you would lose your eligibility. (They track your income earnings that you report on your taxes.) So, you'd be broke or tight as hell for 20 years. Ask yourself if Claremont is worth that kind of sacrifice. Only you know the answer to that. If you cannot wait and have to go now or don't think your odds are good if you apply again, I'd say go for it.

Best of luck to you, I know this is a tough decision.

Edited March 24, 2010 by littlenova

[aspmongo]

The Income Based Repayment plan you linked to is only for federally subsidized loans, aka NOT private loans. And if you're taking out 70K in loans, I'm relatively sure a lot of that will be private and thus not eligible. And as I'm sure you've heard over and over again it is generally recommended to take out MAX the amount you expect to earn in your post-grad entry year. I personally think 20K is about the max I'd be willing to take on for an MFA, and that's not just tuition-based debt but living expenses/health insurance/etc. debt too. Even with a tuition waiver and TA stipend I anticipate pessimistically I may end up with a few thousand in debt upon graduation.

I completely understand your desire to go this year. Before I knew how acceptances were going to go I kept panicking and promising myself it didn't matter how much debt I'd have to take on if I could just go this year. But I advise you to wait. This year was the MOST competitive year in a long time due to the economy, so next year should reap better rewards and will give you another year to work on your portfolio. Applying next year with an improved portfolio and a wiser selection of programs seems like the best call.

Additionally if you're straight out of undergrad this additional year will give you a much needed "real world" glimpse, and if you've been out for a while it'll be one more year for you to save up so that you can better afford an MFA.

[stofo]

I am already approved for 40k worth of federal Stafford loans. I will probably get some sort of Grad Plus loan also, which will be eligible as well. I plugged these figures into an online calculator: if I make 40k my first year and I have 40k of eligible federal loans, I am still approved for IBR and it will shave a few hundred dollars off my monthly payment.

I already mentioned this earlier, these private schools do not offer a lot of aid. For example, I know SAIC costs about $120,000 for 2 years of tuition plus room and board and everything else you need. They only offer one full scholarship and maybe one or two partial scholarships per department. If you plug those numbers into a loan calculator, your paying over a thousand dollars a month for 10 years. I think it would be difficult to pay this even graduating from medical or law school, how will you do it with an art degree?

A lot of people on this site are applying for high ranking expensive private schools. Are all these schools giving scholarships to every student? It seems like there must a lot of MFA students at schools like RISD, or CCA, or SAIC, or any other expensive private schools that are facing at least 5 digit loans when they graduate. How much do you MFA candidates plan on making your first year of graduating?

[lazycatfish]

Tough question, but the reality seems to be that you cannot have a viable art career launch right out of school if you have 100k of debt. How could you? How could you move to say, New York, and rent a $800 apartment, at least a $300 studio, eat, and buy supplies? You cant. You wont be qualified to get a job that makes much more than 30-35k in the art world anyway. If you plan on teaching as a support system, good luck, you wont find a job in an art epicenter like New York. You will end up working an arts admin job or doing manual labor like art handling and these jobs dont pay that kind of money. If you have any more refined or advanced skills your likely to get a job thats so consuming that youll have little time to make work. A good top school MAY be worth it, but its hard to say. If you are really that talented, that ambitious, you will do well in most programs.

Even if you make it, get picked up, and start selling work, thats ALOT of work to sell unless your career skyrockets. It may end up compromising your artistic growth if you have some success and end up needing to make work that appeals to your collector base to pay off loans....

[brianmc]

Can you get an apartment in NY for $800? I used to pay $1300 to live in Bushwick. Bushwick sucked then. It was up and coming. I've heard it's nicer now, but I don't believe it.

Edited March 25, 2010 by brianmc

[lazycatfish]

Well thats with roommates, presumably, or your partner. You can live alone for $1000, various parts of the city, but its not easy. You wont be in a safe area or youll be far away from conveniences.

[Spaced Out]

The Income Based Repayment plan you linked to is only for federally subsidized loans, aka NOT private loans. And if you're taking out 70K in loans, I'm relatively sure a lot of that will be private and thus not eligible. And as I'm sure you've heard over and over again it is generally recommended to take out MAX the amount you expect to earn in your post-grad entry year. I personally think 20K is about the max I'd be willing to take on for an MFA, and that's not just tuition-based debt but living expenses/health insurance/etc. debt too. Even with a tuition waiver and TA stipend I anticipate pessimistically I may end up with a few thousand in debt upon graduation.

I completely understand your desire to go this year. Before I knew how acceptances were going to go I kept panicking and promising myself it didn't matter how much debt I'd have to take on if I could just go this year. But I advise you to wait. This year was the MOST competitive year in a long time due to the economy, so next year should reap better rewards and will give you another year to work on your portfolio. Applying next year with an improved portfolio and a wiser selection of programs seems like the best call.

Additionally if you're straight out of undergrad this additional year will give you a much needed "real world" glimpse, and if you've been out for a while it'll be one more year for you to save up so that you can better afford an MFA.

What exactly is the rule for deferring your acceptance to a school? Do you have to go after a year or else be subject to some penalty? I guess I dont quite understand it. Im thinking about the possibility of deferring at CCA and getting residency in California. Anybody have thoughts on this matter?

[atrawickb]

What exactly is the rule for deferring your acceptance to a school? Do you have to go after a year or else be subject to some penalty? I guess I dont quite understand it. Im thinking about the possibility of deferring at CCA and getting residency in California. Anybody have thoughts on this matter?

cca is a private school. getting residency in california wouldn't change a thing about the cost of going there.

getting residency in california would only help you to reduce your tuition at their state schools, many of which have strong reputations.

[michaelwebster]

I am already approved for 40k worth of federal Stafford loans. I will probably get some sort of Grad Plus loan also, which will be eligible as well. I plugged these figures into an online calculator: if I make 40k my first year and I have 40k of eligible federal loans, I am still approved for IBR and it will shave a few hundred dollars off my monthly payment.

I already mentioned this earlier, these private schools do not offer a lot of aid. For example, I know SAIC costs about $120,000 for 2 years of tuition plus room and board and everything else you need. They only offer one full scholarship and maybe one or two partial scholarships per department. If you plug those numbers into a loan calculator, your paying over a thousand dollars a month for 10 years. I think it would be difficult to pay this even graduating from medical or law school, how will you do it with an art degree?

A lot of people on this site are applying for high ranking expensive private schools. Are all these schools giving scholarships to every student? It seems like there must a lot of MFA students at schools like RISD, or CCA, or SAIC, or any other expensive private schools that are facing at least 5 digit loans when they graduate. How much do you MFA candidates plan on making your first year of graduating?

I believe I will be turning down SAIC unless the person with the free ride declines it and I happen to be the next on the list (.005% likely).

I will probably be going to UNC and not have to take out a single loan.

[nathancotephoto]

When I was accepted at Rutgers I deferred acceptance because they were offering no funding what-so-ever. On top of that I would have to pay out of state tuition. At that price i might as well go to a private school. They sounded like they would reconsider offering me funding this year. It may be worth it or it may depend on the school.

[Upper Deck 01]

.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Upper Deck 01

[Upper Deck 01]

Ny times article on the bill that was just passed to restructure financial aid

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html?src=me&ref=us