Yale Divinity vs. State University

[KaleTomaToe]

I posted this in the admissions thread, but it got buried. Reposting here because I'm looking for some feedback!

I received an offer from Yale Divinity yesterday (MARc Bible), and got in with 100% tuition, which really complicates my decision making.

I am now torn between my undergrad institution, University of Washington, and YDS. UW does their NELC MA with funding through TA/RAships (guaranteed for the full two years). Tuition is waived, and you're paid a livable income through the TA/RAships. So I would be getting a bit of teaching experience along the way. I also know the faculty and student culture is healthy. It also helps that we would only have to move once for a PhD. I was basically set on this program until I got the shocking news from YDS. The HB/ANE faculty here is quite limited, but I know that I really like the professors and their interests line up with mine a fair amount. Another draw is the opportunity to travel abroad during summer to head to Israel and learn Modern Hebrew as a research language.

The biggest attraction to Yale is access to a much larger faculty and classes, along with a bigger student body in a similar field. It doesn't hurt to have the name recognition when it comes to PhD applications, either. I'm giving less details on YDS' program because I'm sure folks here will know as much or more than me about the program and its strengths.

I am mostly interested in HB and ANE studies.

Does anybody have any thoughts? Or want to bring up any questions I should be considering?

[Deep Fried Angst]

If a PhD route is your go-to after your M* the most important thing for you to research is graduation placement rates into PhD programs from both schools. If one school is continually placing students in programs you would want to attend more so than the other one, than your decision should be made. 

[PESSAH]

Dear Hebaram, 

I also have been accepted into the MARc Bible program at Yale. Congratulations!  It looks like we both have the same dilemma. I too have some PhD offers but are from small unpopular programs. Yale is big and famous. I am very confused as to which offer to take, Whether a PhD in an unpopular school or the MAR at Yale so I can get into a bigger PhD program later? 

Regarding your situation, you seem to know exactly what you want. Your goals are clear I mean. The program at your Undergrad school sounds fascinating and it looks like you are very familiar with life there. Sounds easier to me and perhaps the obvious. But if Yale is important to you, take the hard route, come to Yale, try out new life and lets trust God together. Hope this helps. 

If you would like to talk more, I would like your opinion on my situation too. Thanks for your time

 

Paul

[KaleTomaToe]

6 hours ago, Deep Fried Angst said:

If a PhD route is your go-to after your M* the most important thing for you to research is graduation placement rates into PhD programs from both schools. If one school is continually placing students in programs you would want to attend more so than the other one, than your decision should be made. 

Thanks for your response. Of course, Yale's MARc has a great reputation and placement records. UW has a much smaller data set to work with, but has recently sent students to places like Chicago and Johns Hopkins. But I will look into it more closely, thanks!

[xypathos]

4 hours ago, PESSAH said:

Dear Hebaram, 

I also have been accepted into the MARc Bible program at Yale. Congratulations!  It looks like we both have the same dilemma. I too have some PhD offers but are from small unpopular programs. Yale is big and famous. I am very confused as to which offer to take, Whether a PhD in an unpopular school or the MAR at Yale so I can get into a bigger PhD program later? 

Regarding your situation, you seem to know exactly what you want. Your goals are clear I mean. The program at your Undergrad school sounds fascinating and it looks like you are very familiar with life there. Sounds easier to me and perhaps the obvious. But if Yale is important to you, take the hard route, come to Yale, try out new life and lets trust God together. Hope this helps. 

If you would like to talk more, I would like your opinion on my situation too. Thanks for your time

 

Paul

If you already have PhD offers on the table and they're fully funded, I'd think long and hard about rolling the dice for another M* degree.

[sacklunch]

19 hours ago, xypathos said:

If you already have PhD offers on the table and they're fully funded, I'd think long and hard about rolling the dice for another M* degree.

Depends what funding package is offered at YDS. I would think long and hard about doing a PhD at a low ranked school/program these days as well.

[sacklunch]

Re the original question, you need to look carefully at the course requirements for the MARc and see what you can or can't get out of. I know the MARc has exceptions, but I don't know what they are. If the program requires you to take a bunch of fluff--i.e. anything that isn't specific to ANE studies--you may consider the other offer. YDS has a good name, yes, but not really in ANE studies (note I'm not talking about Yale U, which is entirely different). I'm not saying YDS bad, far from it, just that faculty working in ANE studies tend to be much more interested in how good your language skills are, ancient and modern, field experience, specialized coursework (epigraphy, e.g.). You can get some of that at YDS, or at least via Yale U, but you may get stuck taking classes that are more introductory; even if you don't have to take X number of intro classes, you should check how many classes they will let you take outside YDS (there may not be enough classes available at YDS in your specialty for any given semester). The introductory nature of divinity courses is really the biggest problem, I think, for successful entrance into a good PhD program in any field of ancient history. They are not really designed to prepare you for this, or at least that is a very small part of what a divinity school can offer. The top ANE PhD programs, including Yale U, are not going to give a hoot, e.g., if you have a MARc from YDS, but you took a bunch of intro/unrelated classes. They would be far more impressed with someone who has an MA from a good state school who did more advanced/focused research. And honestly even if you have, on paper, 'advanced' classes from YDS or the other usual divinity suspects, certainly Duke, less so HDS and Chicago, they may be skeptical that those classes were up to the same rigor as a non-divinity school. I can say I have walked into a few 'advanced' language classes at a few big divinity schools and was surprised, at first, at the level (lack) of intensity. Faculty know this.

[KaleTomaToe]

On 3/19/2020 at 5:56 PM, sacklunch said:

Re the original question, you need to look carefully at the course requirements for the MARc and see what you can or can't get out of. I know the MARc has exceptions, but I don't know what they are. If the program requires you to take a bunch of fluff--i.e. anything that isn't specific to ANE studies--you may consider the other offer.

Yes, I took a look at their requirements. The basic format is 1.5 yrs Hebrew, .5 yrs Greek, a couple electives, and then Intro to OT and NT Interpretation. The electives can be taken at Yale U, but I kind of doubt that the other ones could be swapped out unless a very similar course has been taken already.

On 3/19/2020 at 5:56 PM, sacklunch said:

The introductory nature of divinity courses is really the biggest problem, I think, for successful entrance into a good PhD program in any field of ancient history. They are not really designed to prepare you for this, or at least that is a very small part of what a divinity school can offer. The top ANE PhD programs, including Yale U, are not going to give a hoot, e.g., if you have a MARc from YDS, but you took a bunch of intro/unrelated classes. They would be far more impressed with someone who has an MA from a good state school who did more advanced/focused research. And honestly even if you have, on paper, 'advanced' classes from YDS or the other usual divinity suspects, certainly Duke, less so HDS and Chicago, they may be skeptical that those classes were up to the same rigor as a non-divinity school. I can say I have walked into a few 'advanced' language classes at a few big divinity schools and was surprised, at first, at the level (lack) of intensity. Faculty know this.

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you. I guess I had assumed that because this was the "concentrated" MAR, that the courses would be more rigorous. That may be the case for some of the Hebrew exegesis courses. But I think you're right. At the very least, I trust that the perception of these courses is that they are less rigorous. My initial leaning was toward remaining in my state university, but most people that I've chatted through this with hear "Yale" and think I would be crazy for turning down such an offer. I'm glad to get the warning ahead of time that YDS does not carry the same weight (necessarily) that Yale U does inside admissions committees.

[sacklunch]

3 hours ago, Hebaram said:

Yes, I took a look at their requirements. The basic format is 1.5 yrs Hebrew, .5 yrs Greek, a couple electives, and then Intro to OT and NT Interpretation. The electives can be taken at Yale U, but I kind of doubt that the other ones could be swapped out unless a very similar course has been taken already.

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you. I guess I had assumed that because this was the "concentrated" MAR, that the courses would be more rigorous. That may be the case for some of the Hebrew exegesis courses. But I think you're right. At the very least, I trust that the perception of these courses is that they are less rigorous. My initial leaning was toward remaining in my state university, but most people that I've chatted through this with hear "Yale" and think I would be crazy for turning down such an offer. I'm glad to get the warning ahead of time that YDS does not carry the same weight (necessarily) that Yale U does inside admissions committees.

Well, to be fair, most admission committees won't see many applicants from Yale U, since that would mean the applicant went to Yale for college (a rather unlikely scenario, if anyone has been tracking stats at R1 schools these days [in short record low humanities majors, while non-elite schools fair much better and haven't changed much in this regard in the past decade]) or perhaps went there for some other M* degree, but I'm not sure if Yale U even offer a degree that would allow one to take advanced classes in ANE studies. Most of the applicants to the top religion (perhaps less so ANE) programs in the US come from divinity schools. My point, in part, was that because most come from divinity schools, faculty are aware of what to expect, as far as preparation goes. Regarding the MARc, yes, while the degree may allow one to take more advanced classes, opting out of intro ones, the potential problem still remains, i.e. the average advanced class is probably more akin to an advanced undergraduate course. So, e.g., if you took a Greek or Hebrew exegesis course at YDS, my guess is it would be about the same level of difficulty as an undergrad class that required 2 years of the language (so a class of juniors and seniors). The reasons for this are practical: because divinity schools don't have language prereqs, they have a lot of students who begin language study when they start their MDiv or MAR, less so MARc. But, majority wins: the courses, perhaps rightly so, are structured to allow those 'late' starting students to join. Outside of the YDS, at Yale U, things will be different; they don't have that expectation and will be full of mostly doctoral students--but don't let that scare you off! Because many of those doctoral students came from divinity schools (and recently, since they are in their first two years of coursework), their language training may be about where you are at now. The good thing about YDS, if you can take enough classes at Yale U, is that you can get a nice mix of intensity during the semester.

I should also alert you, and others please speak up if you have an opinion on this, that some professors in religion prefer students with a diverse academic background, in the sense that they like people who went to more than one school. The thinking is that you will have 'proved' yourself in more than one academic environment, thereby increasing the likelihood that your polished CV is not some kind of fluke. This matters far less if you went to a known school--the assumption then is you have already been vetted, plus profs at R1's tend to know each other. They will simply email their friend and ask about you. This can work for or against you. 

It's hard for me to have a strong opinion about your situation, because a) I know nothing about your current school (e.g. what kind of classes can you take that you haven't) and b) I don't know enough about what you can opt out of at YDS, what classes they will have there and at Yale U when you're there. 

[KaleTomaToe]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I also received a few very helpful PMs.

I've decided to stay at the University of Washington. Ultimately, it came down to the flexibility of the program, faculty interests, and geographical preferences. Time will tell if I made the right decision - if in two years, I'm back here panicking because I was rejected from all my PhD apps, I will know I made the wrong call

Here's to the next two years!