Programs that will allow me to stay in the country where I studied or get employed abroad?

[InternationalStudent]

For some background, I studied political science in the US as an international student (from a middle income/developing country)  in a well known school in the field. The end of my OPT and my inability to secure a visa sponsorship was, honestly, a traumatic experience for me. I had lived for half a decade in the US and had a network of friends and a relationship there and it was pretty painful to have to leave all of that. 

Now, three years later, having obtained some experience working in policy (from the private sector) in my country, I'm read to apply to grad programs. But every program I look at feels like a huge gamble. I don't feel like I can attend schools like SIPA or HKS because their programs don't have STEM designation and I would just be reliving my experience with OPT. They wouldn't help me land jobs in my country that I can't already get, as private firms are small here, public sector jobs are entirely dependent on networks, and I missed that boat by doing my undergrad abroad. So I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Knowing that the absolute worst outcome for me would be having to come back to my country to work, probably at the job I'm already at (which is great for my age and level, but potential for growth is limited), what could I apply to that would give me the best chances to stay abroad? In the US or elsewhere? 

I feel like MPPs and MPAs don't give me too much security.. should I apply for MBAs? My GRE scores are close to perfect and my GPA is decent. I also have a math minor.

I know stuff like international development is easier to access if you have technical skills, like engineering/economics/etc but I feel like I can't apply to those programs. Idk, it seems like studying politics/IR pigeonholed me into a position I can't get out of...

 

[GradSchoolGrad]

8 hours ago, InternationalStudent said:

For some background, I studied political science in the US as an international student (from a middle income/developing country)  in a well known school in the field. The end of my OPT and my inability to secure a visa sponsorship was, honestly, a traumatic experience for me. I had lived for half a decade in the US and had a network of friends and a relationship there and it was pretty painful to have to leave all of that. 

Now, three years later, having obtained some experience working in policy (from the private sector) in my country, I'm read to apply to grad programs. But every program I look at feels like a huge gamble. I don't feel like I can attend schools like SIPA or HKS because their programs don't have STEM designation and I would just be reliving my experience with OPT. They wouldn't help me land jobs in my country that I can't already get, as private firms are small here, public sector jobs are entirely dependent on networks, and I missed that boat by doing my undergrad abroad. So I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Knowing that the absolute worst outcome for me would be having to come back to my country to work, probably at the job I'm already at (which is great for my age and level, but potential for growth is limited), what could I apply to that would give me the best chances to stay abroad? In the US or elsewhere? 

I feel like MPPs and MPAs don't give me too much security.. should I apply for MBAs? My GRE scores are close to perfect and my GPA is decent. I also have a math minor.

I know stuff like international development is easier to access if you have technical skills, like engineering/economics/etc but I feel like I can't apply to those programs. Idk, it seems like studying politics/IR pigeonholed me into a position I can't get out of...

 

So I don't know what you career goals are. However, increasingly things that are more data focused or medical focused are being designated as STEM designated degrees, including some MBA programs (some these are MBAs with a STEM major option) and Data Analytics programs.

However, the key thing to understand is that your base of knowledge and value will be driving by data analytics and/or health. 

https://blog.accepted.com/mba-programs-go-stem-certified/

HOWEVER... please understand that getting an MBA or Health related grad degree doesn't necessarily help you get into international development. International development is a very clique world and traditionally they have frowned upon MBAs. That is changing though... but I don't know how fast it is changing. 

[ExponentialDecay]

I would definitely pick a program that is STEM-certified. More and more MBA and policy programs are going that route, including some big names. 

That said, regardless of what you study and how many years of OPT you have, the current administration has made labor migration so difficult (not just H1B, but EB, L, O) that staying on after school has become exponentially more difficult than when you were in college. A lot of companies that hired internationals even 5 years ago now won't consider non-residents. Based on what I heard from a lawyer friend (large fwiw, of course), a lot of companies don't have the resources to hire internationals because they're fighting to keep existing hires in the country. There's a lot more hoops to jump through and a much higher likelihood of visas being denied or cancelled ex-post. So it's just a really risky proposition right now.

I absolutely still know people who are staying on, but they all either have very quanty degrees from prestigious institutions or work for cap-exempt companies (and all were hired 2+ years ago - the situation got much worse even in the last 6 months). If I were a person considering coming to the US to study and work now, I'd look at Canada, Australia, or a European country where you speak the language. The US is just too risky imo.

[GradSchoolGrad]

3 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I would definitely pick a program that is STEM-certified. More and more MBA and policy programs are going that route, including some big names. 

That said, regardless of what you study and how many years of OPT you have, the current administration has made labor migration so difficult (not just H1B, but EB, L, O) that staying on after school has become exponentially more difficult than when you were in college. A lot of companies that hired internationals even 5 years ago now won't consider non-residents. Based on what I heard from a lawyer friend (large fwiw, of course), a lot of companies don't have the resources to hire internationals because they're fighting to keep existing hires in the country. There's a lot more hoops to jump through and a much higher likelihood of visas being denied or cancelled ex-post. So it's just a really risky proposition right now.

I absolutely still know people who are staying on, but they all either have very quanty degrees from prestigious institutions or work for cap-exempt companies (and all were hired 2+ years ago - the situation got much worse even in the last 6 months). If I were a person considering coming to the US to study and work now, I'd look at Canada, Australia, or a European country where you speak the language. The US is just too risky imo.

First off.

1. We have no idea who the next administration is... That may help make decisions clearer. 

2. Anyone thinking of graduating from a US school now, need to think 2 years from now (when they graduate). At a certain point it is reading the tea leaves. However, we could also be under a 2015 situation whereby the job market was hot for people in STEM fields. (not saying that is necessarily the case).

3. There is a reason why institutions globally value a US education (yes part of it is brand, but there is more than that). My friends in grad school from top tier international schools (including other grad degrees), always noted that they were more challenged in US schools than they were ever expected + had a better overall education experience. In terms of higher education practices (interdisciplinary integration for example), the US is on the cutting edge. Of course you need to be smart about it and think about risk. However... you need to think about risk holistically and just knee-jerk reactions about what is going on right now. 

[ExponentialDecay]

21 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

First off.

1. We have no idea who the next administration is... That may help make decisions clearer. 

2. Anyone thinking of graduating from a US school now, need to think 2 years from now (when they graduate). At a certain point it is reading the tea leaves. However, we could also be under a 2015 situation whereby the job market was hot for people in STEM fields. (not saying that is necessarily the case).

3. There is a reason why institutions globally value a US education (yes part of it is brand, but there is more than that). My friends in grad school from top tier international schools (including other grad degrees), always noted that they were more challenged in US schools than they were ever expected + had a better overall education experience. In terms of higher education practices (interdisciplinary integration for example), the US is on the cutting edge. Of course you need to be smart about it and think about risk. However... you need to think about risk holistically and just knee-jerk reactions about what is going on right now. 

I'm sort of confused by your tone. I'm not saying a US education is bad; I'm saying that trying to immigrate via F1 now is much riskier than it was even a short while ago. I don't understand why you're acting defensive.

1. It doesn't matter. Even if Biden wins in November, policy and procedure doesn't just change like that once a new president takes hold (I should hope that people who advise on the Government Affairs grad school forum know that). It takes time for a new administration to make changes to immigration policies - hence why Trump's immigration policies, most of which were implemented at the agency, procedural level, and weren't even macro policies that passed through Congress, in large part came into effect in 2018 onwards. Further, we don't know where on the administration's priority list specifically, say, F1 visas or H1B visas will be - though I suspect they will not be high, given COVID and global economic collapse and all. We don't know who will control Congress. On a practical level, this administration's interventions created huge backlogs for USCIS, DOS, and other agencies, and constructed a multitude of procedural risks and barriers that I doubt will be high-priority enough to repeal in short order if at all. Finally, from an expectations perspective, we already have ample evidence that businesses are reaction to uncertainty around US immigration policies by entirely cutting the hiring of people with, shall we say, uncertain status - we're not just talking students on OPT, we're talking DACA recipients, asylees with EADs, anyone whose status is remotely uncertain. I don't see why in this case their expectations should recover faster than in literally any other situation where business expectations became deflated.

2. 2 years is actually not any time at all in the policy world. I'm not an expert in this field, I just follow it for personal reasons, and I have yet to read an expert who doesn't think that it will continue to be really bad for the next 2 years.

3. Institutions globally also value a Canadian education, or a British one, or a French one. Today there are many famous non-US schools in virtually any field, which also typically cost less and provide more options for staying in the country after. I think the US is not the best option for a non-MBA masters compared to other countries, where masters degrees are taken seriously rather than seen as a stepping stone for people who didn't get good enough grades in the BA or people who need to wait out a rough job market. Maybe 20 years ago the US was unique in offering non-lecture class experiences and practical learning, but today it is ubiquitous at top universities from Sydney to Singapore. 

Finally, this isn't "knee jerk" for me. I originally came to the US on an F1 visa (and yes, all my degrees are from the US) and I am still on a visa status today. This is an issue I consume a lot of news on and think about every day. Aside from my multitude of personal friends who are also non US citizens, I also am in touch with many people who are more junior in their careers in this very field, who worked with me in the summer or attended an event together, and who reach out to me regularly to talk about how they're doing on the job market and what their options are going forward. So I'm sorry to step on your toes, but the reason I commented here in the first place is that I do know a lot of facts, not just speculation, about this topic. If you don't have personal experience with the US immigration system and are not an immigration professional, I would maybe think twice about giving out diagnoses for other people's knees.

[GradSchoolGrad]

7 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I'm sort of confused by your tone. I'm not saying a US education is bad; I'm saying that trying to immigrate via F1 now is much riskier than it was even a short while ago. I don't understand why you're acting defensive.

1. It doesn't matter. Even if Biden wins in November, policy and procedure doesn't just change like that once a new president takes hold (I should hope that people who advise on the Government Affairs grad school forum know that). It takes time for a new administration to make changes to immigration policies - hence why Trump's immigration policies, most of which were implemented at the agency, procedural level, and weren't even macro policies that passed through Congress, in large part came into effect in 2018 onwards. Further, we don't know where on the administration's priority list specifically, say, F1 visas or H1B visas will be - though I suspect they will not be high, given COVID and global economic collapse and all. We don't know who will control Congress. On a practical level, this administration's interventions created huge backlogs for USCIS, DOS, and other agencies, and constructed a multitude of procedural risks and barriers that I doubt will be high-priority enough to repeal in short order if at all. Finally, from an expectations perspective, we already have ample evidence that businesses are reaction to uncertainty around US immigration policies by entirely cutting the hiring of people with, shall we say, uncertain status - we're not just talking students on OPT, we're talking DACA recipients, asylees with EADs, anyone whose status is remotely uncertain. I don't see why in this case their expectations should recover faster than in literally any other situation where business expectations became deflated.

2. 2 years is actually not any time at all in the policy world. I'm not an expert in this field, I just follow it for personal reasons, and I have yet to read an expert who doesn't think that it will continue to be really bad for the next 2 years.

3. Institutions globally also value a Canadian education, or a British one, or a French one. Today there are many famous non-US schools in virtually any field, which also typically cost less and provide more options for staying in the country after. I think the US is not the best option for a non-MBA masters compared to other countries, where masters degrees are taken seriously rather than seen as a stepping stone for people who didn't get good enough grades in the BA or people who need to wait out a rough job market. Maybe 20 years ago the US was unique in offering non-lecture class experiences and practical learning, but today it is ubiquitous at top universities from Sydney to Singapore. 

Finally, this isn't "knee jerk" for me. I originally came to the US on an F1 visa (and yes, all my degrees are from the US) and I am still on a visa status today. This is an issue I consume a lot of news on and think about every day. Aside from my multitude of personal friends who are also non US citizens, I also am in touch with many people who are more junior in their careers in this very field, who worked with me in the summer or attended an event together, and who reach out to me regularly to talk about how they're doing on the job market and what their options are going forward. So I'm sorry to step on your toes, but the reason I commented here in the first place is that I do know a lot of facts, not just speculation, about this topic. If you don't have personal experience with the US immigration system and are not an immigration professional, I would maybe think twice about giving out diagnoses for other people's knees.

I recommend you be rather kinder and nicer about your tone there (not just me... your posts in general). You bring good points, but you can objectively disagree and go further without being so brisk. For the record, I am an immigrant to the US myself.

That being said, I think we have some agreements, disagreements, and nuanced different perspectives.

1. Agreements:

a. Yes, I agree with you that the worse case scenario looks pretty grim as you described. I am not disputing that.

b. Yes, schools internationally having been closing the gap with US programs.

2. Disagreements

a. I think that there is a very real world scenario whereby the Biden administration gets pressured by companies (under a strong economic rebound 1 year from now) to administratively remove the barriers installed by 2018. For some companies, it can be either have better access to international students or offshore, and they can make that pointed argument. Also, in tech, I know international students who picked up jobs during the height of Covid with policy degrees (focusing on the data side). Depending on how much tech rises as an economic giant (beyond the big players right now), the pressure will pick up. In no way am I saying I read the future, but this is a potential reality as well.

b. The gap may be closing, but it is far from closed. How do I know? Visiting Professors tell me so. Americna students who go abroad for graduate school (Oxbridge including), have told me about how their realized shortcomings with their Top Tier grad school American piers. I even know of people who negotiated partnerships with American schools to compensate for the lack access to certain things at top Tier UK/Europe graduate programs.

Nuances

Having been coached international students as a peer and as a graduate for years, I have seen what international students to get a sponsored job and how they fail. These are some of my observations (non-exhaustive of course).

1. How they succeed (bottom line, plan for coming to America years in advance)
a. Coming from an undeniably in-demand background and the grad school actually is a straightforward value add + credentialing. Example - Corporate finance at a bank, getting an MPP to do impact financing as an boutique investment research org

b. Fully tied with the diaspora within the US. Example - Indian students, strongly linked with Indian professional community in US

c. Coached to adapt to US career pathways before hand. Example - strong exposure to US ex-pat community

d. Actually be aware of what jobs are in demand that are willing to sponsor

2. How I seen international struggle (some of these may sound silly, but I have seen it or people confessed it to me more than once during my graduate school career. Some of these are to be generally appreciated. I have also seen Americans be guilty of this as well, but disproportionately be behaviors I have seen among international students).

a. Rest on their home country brands. This sounds snobbish, but I have seen too many International students start networking conversations by emphasizing their home country brands that Americans have no understanding of.

b. Rest on their US graduate school brand. I have also seen international students focus too much on the brand of their graduate school, and fail to emphasize what their unique value add to a company.

c. Struggle to network period. This ranges from refusing to network (yes I have met international students who have cried at the prospect of having to talk to strangers) to struggling with how to network.

d. Being overly flashy with how great they are. Yes, I have seen international students go to companies and essentially demand jobs in order to improve US international relations because they have relative that is XYZ world leader.

e. Think that every application sent online is read. Just because you send an application in doesn't mean that it will be read. Usually they are tied to either an AI resume screener or tied connected to a list of people vetted in person. Even if your resume is perfect, if it doesn't math the AI screener, or you missed the opportunity to talk to someone in person to vet you, your application doesn't matter. It is better to send in 10 applications via a formal screening process than 1000 applications blind. Every year, I get so many calls of international students asking me about their chances for going into McKinsey because they were top of their class in something, even if they have a limited idea of McKinsey actually does.

f. Avoid making meaningful US student friends. These friends are the best advisors on how to network. 

g. Sabotage their peer international students. This astounding me of how international students would try to sabotage each other of opportunities by giving each other false information. 

h. Only look for jobs within a narrow band of interest (usually in areas that have intense competition anyway). In my thesis class, half of the international students wanted to work in international development focused on gender discrimination with one of the top 3 IGOs. Yes, I think it is a super important area. However, there are only so many jobs in that space. 

i. Look for jobs that they have no chance in getting. I will never forget how during orientation, 3 international students announced that their goal was to work in the Pentagon and advise the President of the United States. 

j. Failure to adjust rapidly. Markets and geopolitical situations change what sponsored jobs are demand. I found it was super interesting that I couldn't international students to change their career goals to what opportunities the market allowed for.

k. Not follow the advice of well meaning people. I always thought it was interesting that no matter how often myself, alumni, or professional career coaches gave the same advice over and over again, international students wouldn't believe us because they knew of some distant relative or heard of someone who succeeded... and they are still unemployed..

l. Having a recognizable professional value. This does not mean great academic transcript. Too often, I have seen international students conflate grades with career potential. This means actually having and being able to communicate professional value in a coherent way. 

 

[ExponentialDecay]

@GradSchoolGrad Please enlighten me if you see otherwise, but I've read both posts I made here and I see nowhere that I've been unkind or not nice, to you or to anyone. You never explained why you took such a condescending tone with me, "First off" and so on. Based on my longterm experience on this board, you are very invested in being the resident expert on all things here and you become incensed whenever somebody posts something you disagree with. I'm really not looking for an internet fight so, if you can't keep your communications civil, I'd rather we not interact anymore. You can post your opinion on a subject without directly putting it in opposition with mine. People here are smart and capable of making their own conclusions.

Anyway. I find your post off-topic. The conversation was about whether trying to stay in the US after a master's degree is a good risk right now, and you have not addressed this point whatsoever. I will reiterate that, per my assessment, the US is not worth the risk right now (and basing one's decision on your unpedigreed assessment of what is "highly likely" for an as-of-yet unelected Presidential candidate to do is quite silly). This is where I'll leave it.

[GradSchoolGrad]

11 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

@GradSchoolGrad Please enlighten me if you see otherwise, but I've read both posts I made here and I see nowhere that I've been unkind or not nice, to you or to anyone. You never explained why you took such a condescending tone with me, "First off" and so on. Based on my longterm experience on this board, you are very invested in being the resident expert on all things here and you become incensed whenever somebody posts something you disagree with. I'm really not looking for an internet fight so, if you can't keep your communications civil, I'd rather we not interact anymore. You can post your opinion on a subject without directly putting it in opposition with mine. People here are smart and capable of making their own conclusions.

Anyway. I find your post off-topic. The conversation was about whether trying to stay in the US after a master's degree is a good risk right now, and you have not addressed this point whatsoever. I will reiterate that, per my assessment, the US is not worth the risk right now (and basing one's decision on your unpedigreed assessment of what is "highly likely" for an as-of-yet unelected Presidential candidate to do is quite silly). This is where I'll leave it.

I'm not going to waste my time on teaching anyone how to conduct proper professional communication or how to user proper word choice. I hope people partaking in this board can make smart decisions based upon comprehensive assessments of the nuances rather than broad generalizations from someone who has had over 100+ negative post reactions (obviously for crude language and preferring to throw around accusations than trying be legitimately helpful). 

[ExponentialDecay]

lol dude what is your problem?

[InternationalStudent]

 

On 9/6/2020 at 6:50 AM, ExponentialDecay said:

@GradSchoolGrad Please enlighten me if you see otherwise, but I've read both posts I made here and I see nowhere that I've been unkind or not nice, to you or to anyone. You never explained why you took such a condescending tone with me, "First off" and so on. Based on my longterm experience on this board, you are very invested in being the resident expert on all things here and you become incensed whenever somebody posts something you disagree with. I'm really not looking for an internet fight so, if you can't keep your communications civil, I'd rather we not interact anymore. You can post your opinion on a subject without directly putting it in opposition with mine. People here are smart and capable of making their own conclusions.

Anyway. I find your post off-topic. The conversation was about whether trying to stay in the US after a master's degree is a good risk right now, and you have not addressed this point whatsoever. I will reiterate that, per my assessment, the US is not worth the risk right now (and basing one's decision on your unpedigreed assessment of what is "highly likely" for an as-of-yet unelected Presidential candidate to do is quite silly). This is where I'll leave it.

Just want to pop in and say that I wasn't specifically referring to US master's degrees in my OP. In fact, if you think it's significantly easier to stay in another country post master's degree I'd be happy to hear of some options. 

Also, I definitely won't be applying to any programs in the US if Trump wins in November.

[ExponentialDecay]

23 hours ago, InternationalStudent said:

 

Just want to pop in and say that I wasn't specifically referring to US master's degrees in my OP. In fact, if you think it's significantly easier to stay in another country post master's degree I'd be happy to hear of some options. 

Also, I definitely won't be applying to any programs in the US if Trump wins in November.

I talk about US programs and the US immigration climate because that's what I know. My impression from secondary sources is that Canada, Australia and a handful of EU countries (e.g. Germany, Poland) are feasible to migrate to via school, but I don't want to advise because immigration in each country is its own beast. The added complication is that a lot of traditional policy jobs require local citizenship or residency and policy degrees don't necessarily transfer well outside of policy fields.

[GradSchoolGrad]

 

On 9/7/2020 at 5:08 PM, InternationalStudent said:

 

Just want to pop in and say that I wasn't specifically referring to US master's degrees in my OP. In fact, if you think it's significantly easier to stay in another country post master's degree I'd be happy to hear of some options. 

Also, I definitely won't be applying to any programs in the US if Trump wins in November.

So lets break this down into two groups.

1. Staying in the country. That varies greatly among countries and you face a fair amount of uncertainty for all countries.

2. Returning to your current country. I think this is very nuanced. Two things to consider

a. Brand relevance power in your current country. There are countries (I don't think it is right, but its true), where getting a particular brand gets your a certain job, or easier access towards a certain job.

b. Actual international professional reach. Some schools have established powerful alumni presence + institutional presence within other countries. This may or may not apply to you.

I recommend you identify what are the jobs you want (or where) coming out of grad school and between talking to the current employees / doing LinkedIn stalking to see where some of the influential people / flood of new employees come from.

[Sigaba]

On 9/8/2020 at 2:05 PM, ExponentialDecay said:

I talk about US programs and the US immigration climate because that's what I know. 

FWIW, this is why I find your posts credible, especially when I disagree with you.