Help !

[columbia09]

I’m in a tough situation and I need all the help I can get. I’m in my late 20s and graduated from college 5 years ago with two science majors. I’ve been working two government jobs one part time and one full in fields completely unrelated to my studies. I’ve been in contact with a professor from a school who’s work really interests me and he’d like to take me on as a MS student and eventually walk into their PhD program part time in earth and environmental sciences. He would like for me to start this upcoming spring. On the other end, my job will send me away for one year and pay me to get a MPP at Princeton. Problem is that the program requires 7 years of work experience which I don’t have yet. I can apply to the program next year but I’ve been putting off going back to school for years now. What should I do? Should I go to Princeton first and then go to the other school for a second masters? My job really doesn’t give me anything for the earth and environmental sciences masters. Just 18 leave days that I can’t even apply to for the spring (they only issue them to people starting in the fall). Any suggestions?

[GradSchoolGrad]

48 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

I’m in a tough situation and I need all the help I can get. I’m in my late 20s and graduated from college 5 years ago with two science majors. I’ve been working two government jobs one part time and one full in fields completely unrelated to my studies. I’ve been in contact with a professor from a school who’s work really interests me and he’d like to take me on as a MS student and eventually walk into their PhD program part time in earth and environmental sciences. He would like for me to start this upcoming spring. On the other end, my job will send me away for one year and pay me to get a MPP at Princeton. Problem is that the program requires 7 years of work experience which I don’t have yet. I can apply to the program next year but I’ve been putting off going back to school for years now. What should I do? Should I go to Princeton first and then go to the other school for a second masters? My job really doesn’t give me anything for the earth and environmental sciences masters. Just 18 leave days that I can’t even apply to for the spring (they only issue them to people starting in the fall). Any suggestions?

I would say email Princeton to get an exception to policy or clarification of definition for 7 years. I am assuming that on Day 1 of school, you would be at 6 years. If you add all your full time summer internships + other college jobs, you tip at 7 years. That might be just good enough to fly. 

It is usually a bad idea to go to a PhD unless you really care for it and it doesn't sound like you do. 

[columbia09]

7 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

I would say email Princeton to get an exception to policy or clarification of definition for 7 years. I am assuming that on Day 1 of school, you would be at 6 years. If you add all your full time summer internships + other college jobs, you tip at 7 years. That might be just good enough to fly. 

It is usually a bad idea to go to a PhD unless you really care for it and it doesn't sound like you do. 

Well the PhD is in a subject that I care about a lot. I tried doing what you stated, they (Princeton Admissions) looked at my resume and they said you’re not ready yet. In another year yes but not now. Which is stupid, I have to wait another year now 

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, columbia09 said:

Well the PhD is in a subject that I care about a lot. I tried doing what you stated, they (Princeton Admissions) looked at my resume and they said you’re not ready yet. In another year yes but not now. Which is stupid, I have to wait another year now 

You really don't like rules, pre-reqs, and requirements from institutions I see.

As for the PhD, I didn't mean to say you didn't care about the subject, I mean caring to go through the pain of the PhD in the first place. Assuming this is a traditional PhD, there are comprehensives (which has a decent failure rate depending on discipline) and thesis. Both can be painful. 

[columbia09]

7 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

You really don't like rules, pre-reqs, and requirements from institutions I see.

As for the PhD, I didn't mean to say you didn't care about the subject, I mean caring to go through the pain of the PhD in the first place. Assuming this is a traditional PhD, there are comprehensives (which has a decent failure rate depending on discipline) and thesis. Both can be painful. 

My masters is going to have a thesis. What’s the failure rate typically? 
 

And, well, I think standardized tests are outdated (Harvard HKS is the only mid career program that I know requires it still) and as for the work experience one, one year really can’t make that much of a difference 

Edited September 10, 2020 by columbia09

[GradSchoolGrad]

2 hours ago, columbia09 said:

My masters is going to have a thesis. What’s the failure rate typically? 
 

And, well, I think standardized tests are outdated (Harvard HKS is the only mid career program that I know requires it still) and as for the work experience one, one year really can’t make that much of a difference 

Yes, but comparatively speaking, a Master's Thesis is a Goosebumps children's novel whereas a PhD thesis is like Moby Dick (slight exaggeration, but I think you get the point). The expectations, level of scrutiny, and process involved has greater time investment + levels of complexity in a PhD vs. Master's. It is not an apples to apples comparison.

Its interesting, I was talking to someone who complained that his Executive Masters program didn't have an age limit and had to deal with all these co workers with relatively lack of breadth and scope in terms of workforce. Not saying that is you, but those numbers are out there for a reasons to bolster program experience. 

[columbia09]

2 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Yes, but comparatively speaking, a Master's Thesis is a Goosebumps children's novel whereas a PhD thesis is like Moby Dick (slight exaggeration, but I think you get the point). The expectations, level of scrutiny, and process involved has greater time investment + levels of complexity in a PhD vs. Master's. It is not an apples to apples comparison.

Its interesting, I was talking to someone who complained that his Executive Masters program didn't have an age limit and had to deal with all these co workers with relatively lack of breadth and scope in terms of workforce. Not saying that is you, but those numbers are out there for a reasons to bolster program experience. 

One year though ? I like your comparison though, would a B.S thesis be a Doctor S book then ? 

Edited September 10, 2020 by columbia09

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, columbia09 said:

One year though ? I like your comparison though, would a B.S thesis be a Doctor S book then ? 

Ya... but if they made it 6 year career experience, then the person with 5 years will be annoyed and so on and so forth. At a certain point, they had to put a marker down to cater the experience that they want. 

So B.S. Thesis vs. Master Thesis is interesting because it depends on program. I spent more time on my B.S. Thesis than Master's project (partly due to how poorly structured the Master's project was). 

[columbia09]

I’ve been given the advice of just applying to Princeton and seeing what happens. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

40 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

I’ve been given the advice of just applying to Princeton and seeing what happens. 

Unless that person giving you advice has insider information, that is a terrible idea. 

A lot of times (and in no way am 100% sure Princeton does this, but every admissions officer I encountered in IR and Policy does), admissions offices have Graduate assistants do initial screens of resumes to make sure you match up the pre-reqs. If you are in question, you go into the questionable pile (if not outright rejection) for adjudication. That is when the professionals do a further screen of you. If the person who originally told you no is a graduate assistant, then that means you didn't pass the sniff test. If it was a professional admissions person, that means your story will likely be remembered (they won't remember your name, but they will remember your unique story from your resume). 

ALSO - especially given how you are the lower end of career experience, your resume would be given more scrutiny, lowering your chances of actually getting in.

If you want to take that risk, then it is on you. I am just giving you a real shake. 

Honestly, what is so bad about taking the GRE for HKS or waiting a year (maybe you wrote it before and I missed it)?

[columbia09]

2 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Unless that person giving you advice has insider information, that is a terrible idea. 

A lot of times (and in no way am 100% sure Princeton does this, but every admissions officer I encountered in IR and Policy does), admissions offices have Graduate assistants do initial screens of resumes to make sure you match up the pre-reqs. If you are in question, you go into the questionable pile (if not outright rejection) for adjudication. That is when the professionals do a further screen of you. If the person who originally told you no is a graduate assistant, then that means you didn't pass the sniff test. If it was a professional admissions person, that means your story will likely be remembered (they won't remember your name, but they will remember your unique story from your resume). 

ALSO - especially given how you are the lower end of career experience, your resume would be given more scrutiny, lowering your chances of actually getting in.

If you want to take that risk, then it is on you. I am just giving you a real shake. 

Honestly, what is so bad about taking the GRE for HKS or waiting a year (maybe you wrote it before and I missed it)?

I took the GRE twice and did horrible. I’m not about it take it a third time. And I’d like to start a  masters soon because I’ve been out of school for five and a half years and of course life can happen 

[GradSchoolGrad]

45 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

I took the GRE twice and did horrible. I’m not about it take it a third time. And I’d like to start a  masters soon because I’ve been out of school for five and a half years and of course life can happen 

Hey man, I went to grad school with 8 years of work experience. It wasn't the end of the world. If you are really eyeballing Princeton MPP, I would just apply next year. If you apply this year and they smoke you out as 

A. Being unqualified or

B. Being unqualified and knowing you are unqualified after checking with admissions 

Worst case scenario is that it could look really bad for you and you become an automatic reject next time you apply. Like I said, I don't 100% know Princeton's admissions practices. I'm just speaking to industry common practices I have seen. 

Also, it is likely easier to get in for the fall of 2022 class than fall of 2021 class. I mean at this point, especially without submitting standardized tests + being on the lower end of career years, you are coming from a position of weakness and not strength so you need every advantage you can get (not disadvantage).

Edited September 21, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[columbia09]

28 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Hey man, I went to grad school with 8 years of work experience. It wasn't the end of the world. If you are really eyeballing Princeton MPP, I would just apply next year. If you apply this year and they smoke you out as 

A. Being unqualified or

B. Being unqualified and knowing you are unqualified after checking with admissions 

Worst case scenario is that it could look really bad for you and you become an automatic reject next time you apply. Like I said, I don't 100% know Princeton's admissions practices. I'm just speaking to industry common practices I have seen. 

Also, it is likely easier to get in for the fall of 2022 class than fall of 2021 class. I mean at this point, especially without submitting standardized tests + being on the lower end of career years, you are coming from a position of weakness and not strength so you need every advantage you can get (not disadvantage).

I think I mentioned before that I got in NYU Wagner and Columbia SIPA last year without the GRE. But I see your point on the work experience side. I should do the MPP at Princeton first and get the geology masters later 

[GradSchoolGrad]

3 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

I think I mentioned before that I got in NYU Wagner and Columbia SIPA last year without the GRE. But I see your point on the work experience side. I should do the MPP at Princeton first and get the geology masters later 

Ya but NYU Wagner and Columbia SIPA (assuming you not doing IR) are much easier to get into than Princeton MPP due to supply and demand (# of students apply vs. # of seats available).  Huge difference. 

[columbia09]

3 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Ya but NYU Wagner and Columbia SIPA (assuming you not doing IR) are much easier to get into than Princeton MPP due to supply and demand (# of students apply vs. # of seats available).  Huge difference. 

How many students do they see apply you think for their 20-25 seats ? It’s a tuition free program so I figured I’d be competitive. Is Harvard’s MC/MPA the same level ?

Edited September 21, 2020 by columbia09

[GradSchoolGrad]

They don't reveal their numbers (unlike MBAs) since MPP programs don't want to be perceived as playing an admissions numbers game. 

Anecdotally, everyone that I know who qualified for Princeton MPP at my policy school who weren't location tied (except for myself) applied for it. 

I have heard back of the envelope numbers from people in industry say roughly 25% admissions rate for HKS in general and 15% for Princeton MPP, but that was year's ago and uncertain reliability. I would take it with a grain of salt, but I would say it is directionally correct. 

MC/MPA and Princeton MPP isn't a straight forward apples to apples comparison. MC/MPA still has quant but is not as quant intense at Princeton MPP. Princeton MPP is kind of geared more towards career switchers going deep in Policy than career advancement per se. HKS MC/MPA is geared more towards Policy leadership roles. 

I mean hypothetically, there is a lot of cross over in terms of jobs being targeted, but the programs are decently nuanced with different strengths and weaknesses.

Overall, it sounds like you are targeting a top tier program that fits you broadly in terms of timeline and eligibility, but I think you have failed to do your due diligence in researching the nuances to see if your goals actually align with each program's strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking so many of the same type of questions over and over again in more unique situations. Not trying to be mean. Just trying to help you make a plan for next steps. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[columbia09]

1 hour ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

They don't reveal their numbers (unlike MBAs) since MPP programs don't want to be perceived as playing an admissions numbers game. 

Anecdotally, everyone that I know who qualified for Princeton MPP at my policy school who weren't location tied (except for myself) applied for it. 

I have heard back of the envelope numbers from people in industry say roughly 25% admissions rate for HKS in general and 15% for Princeton MPP, but that was year's ago and uncertain reliability. I would take it with a grain of salt, but I would say it is directionally correct. 

MC/MPA and Princeton MPP isn't a straight forward apples to apples comparison. MC/MPA still has quant but is not as quant intense at Princeton MPP. Princeton MPP is kind of geared more towards career switchers going deep in Policy than career advancement per se. HKS MC/MPA is geared more towards Policy leadership roles. 

I mean hypothetically, there is a lot of cross over in terms of jobs being targeted, but the programs are decently nuanced with different strengths and weaknesses.

Overall, it sounds like you are targeting a top tier program that fits you broadly in terms of timeline and eligibility, but I think you have failed to do your due diligence in researching the nuances to see if your goals actually align with each program's strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking so many of the same type of questions over and over again in more unique situations. Not trying to be mean. Just trying to help you make a plan for next steps. 

It comes down to money and what my company will pay for. Only thing that’s keeping me from going to Harvard over Princeton is the GRE. I have a very different undergrad education and I’m in a completely unrelated field. It is what it is 

[GradSchoolGrad]

7 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

It comes down to money and what my company will pay for. Only thing that’s keeping me from going to Harvard over Princeton is the GRE. I have a very different undergrad education and I’m in a completely unrelated field. It is what it is 

I don't think you realize that your "very different' undergrad education" actually makes you more competitive by virtue of making you unique + messages the ability to handle quant (I believe you are a science guy). So that actually comes as an advantage. I totally get the money thing, but there is money and timing. These schools will be around next year and their financial situation can't be worse than this year to dole out money (with the exception of Princeton which garauntees). 

As for nuances, I recommend you talk to some student ambassadors (or equivalents) + get on the phone with some recent alums that are in your network. It will help you make better choices among the limited choices I understand that you do have.

[drunkenduck]

If you don't accept that professor's offer for this spring, I would NOT expect it to be waiting for you when you're done with Princeton. 

I'm also not sure why you're trying to amass so many graduate degrees. It seems like you might need to decide what you actually want to do with your career. Just a thought!