Yet Another GRE Question

[floortile]

Hello all,

I am a prospective theory student who will be applying to a few top-ten programs and need some advice on whether to submit GRE scores to programs which have made it optional. I got a 168/170 V and 6/6AWA (98th and 99th percentile), but a 147/170 on my Quant (25th percentile). I will not have a chance to rewrite the test for this admissions cycle. Is it worth submitting these scores with an explanation in my personal statement regarding the quant score (I was a very poor student in high school and was out of school for years before returning to uni, had to begin my GRE studying by relearning basic arithmetic, and just did not have time due to pandemic to prepare for the GRE-specific math).

My professor is encouraging me to submit the scores. He thinks they will help contextualize my GPA, which is high but from an unknown non-US university, and that given my interest in theory, they might be willing to brush past the low quant score.

As an aside, can anyone give advice on whether it is appropriate to reach out to faculty members with this question. I 1) don't want to seem unprofessional by soliciting personalized advice and 2) don't want to reveal that I, a student with an incoming application, have a very poor quant score if it is indeed going to hurt more than help my application.

I should add that I am looking at Yale most specifically in regards to this question.

Thanks

Edited September 18, 2020 by floortile

[Theory007]

I will say this; if you are applying with a degree from a select few foreign top-universities such as Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, SNU, and a few others I will encourage you not to submit your scores. Schools like LSE and SNU place a very high number of students in US phd programs and US adcoms will know what to look for when they receive applications from students with that background. That means that even without a GRE score adcomes will know what a competitive student looks like from those programs.

If one the other hand you are applying from an unknown non-US university, and this seems to describe your situation, I agree with your advisor; you will need to submit GRE scores. Your verbal score is clearly extremely competitive and should catch the attention from virtually anyone who sees it. Your quantitative score is the exact opposite and will almost certainly disqualify you from many programs in the US top-50. But I should say that I do know of at least one person who has gotten into a good phd program (in the top 25) who had a quant score in the mid 150s and a verbal score in the high 160s. Every other aspect of that person's application was perfect.

I am sorry to say this, but the program at Yale (and any other school in the top-10) simply will almost certainly not take a student with a quantitative score of 147. Of course I cannot completely rule it out, but I would say that it is close to impossible. Maybe if you had several publications in internationally recognized journals at this point you would have a chance. This is not to discourage you, but to encourage you to apply to programs that are more suitable for your profile. Maybe you are already planning on this, but I would apply broadly if I was you in the top-50. I still think you need to submit your GRE scores even to lower ranked universities 

A better alternative would be this; wait a year, brush up on your math, and do decently well on the GRE quant. It is tough but you can do it. And spending time on learning basic math is actually a really good use of your time and will benefit you even as a theorist going forward. If you get a quantitative score around 160 (or even mid-150s) I think your GRE scores would in fact make you competitive for top 10 programs and Yale would no longer be out of reach.

Again I say these things to encourage you such that you do not have to go through a failed application round.

[uncle_socks]

For the most part that low in quant is going to be a non-starter for any program that has its theory students take any required quant-oriented courses. Yale looks like it doesn't require you to take the quant sequence but you'd still have to take an AP or Comp or IR class, which they're going to think is out of your depth with a 147. 

 

This won't help contextualize your GPA in a good way: it'll make admissions committees think "this person graduated with high grades but struggles with high-school level math," which is not a good look. Also, faculty very much don't want to evaluate anyone's chances of admission, and you do not want to reach out to faculty about GRE scores in particular. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BunniesInSpace

[smug-face]

I would advise against submitting them. That quant is going to do more harm than good, especially considering that the places that do not require the GRE will mostly receive very high scores. You should ask your recommenders to contextualize your GPA in their letters, it will be a better signal than the GRE. 

[floortile]

Really appreciate everyone's replies, thank you. The comment that optional programs will only receive high scores is quite insightful, had not thought of that, as was the comment above it. Theory007, your detailed reply was very helpful. Wondering what everyone makes of this quote from Yale's website (https://politicalscience.yale.edu/academics/graduate-program/application-information/application-information-faqs): 

"There is no minimum GRE score required. GRE scores of previously admitted students have ranged between 150-170 for the verbal section and 150-170 for the quantitative section. Please keep in mind that GRE scores are but one of many criteria used to evaluate an applicant."

Wondering if this indicates that, despite what they say about there not being a minimum score, they do use 150 as their effective minimum threshold (or if they would lump a 147 in with 150). On the other hand, this does seem to suggest that they do not reject applications outright that have such scores (as one sometimes hears is done and, Theory007, as you seem to suggest would be the case), or else the 150 scoring applicants would not be considered in the first place.

Does the above change anyone's recommendation not to submit scores? Keeping in mind that it is optional for Yale this application cycle.

 

[uncle_socks]

It means that one person once got in with a 150, not that it's a regular occurrence at all. Even though most programs say they don't have an explicit minimum score, they will be very quick to toss out your application if you don't meet some kind of range unless there is a big obvious reason to not do so. Like they'll glance at your CV, but not with the same consideration that someone with a 330 GRE is getting. 

It's incredibly likely that those admitted with 150s have something else (or many other) incredible going for them, such as independent funding, published papers in top journals, HYPS pedigree and amazing recs from HYPS professors, a Yale prof who knows the student and is willing to convincingly vouch for them in front of the admissions committee. 

[PoliSciGuy00]

Hi floortile, 

I agree with much of what has been said on here.  I think the general consensus on this forum is that a 150 on quant really is the absolute minimum for many top 25 and even top 50 schools.  Some have scooted by with a 149 on quant, but a 150 is safer.  For Yale, a 147 is almost certainly too low.  I don't think they will lump a 147 into "the low 150's," unfortunately.  You could win the lottery and get accepted, but I agree with other commenters that the odds are seriously stacked against you. 

For what it's worth, I was accepted to two top 25 programs (but not top 10) with a 152 on the quant section of the GRE and low 160's on the verbal.  I had a pretty strong application otherwise, I think, but it wasn't perfect.  Furthermore, my initial GRE quant scores were quite low, below yours, but after concerted effort on Magoosh, I was able to raise them from 146 -> 152.  I would absolutely recommend Magoosh over any other online testing service.  As someone who has used all of them, I found Magoosh second to none (of course, the official ETS practice test is good, but I appreciated that Magoosh had video explanations and lessons, ETS doesn't offer that).  

The last thing I'll say is that, depending on how your GRE/application situation evolves, I think you should consider some programs outside the top 10.  Everyone wants to attend a top 10, but for many of us it just isn't feasible for one reason or another.  I think programs outside the top 10 can still offer a lot of value and put you in a good position.  If you don't mind losing a couple hundred dollars, I'd say go ahead and submit some apps this year w/o the GRE score, see if you get in anywhere, and then consider retaking the GRE.  I imagine it would help improve your score if you could still take it while it's being offered remotely.   

I hope this is helpful.  Best of luck to you.   

       

 

 

[Theory007]

1 hour ago, Mr_Spock2018 said:

Hi floortile, 

I agree with much of what has been said on here.  I think the general consensus on this forum is that a 150 on quant really is the absolute minimum for many top 25 and even top 50 schools.  Some have scooted by with a 149 on quant, but a 150 is safer.  For Yale, a 147 is almost certainly too low.  I don't think they will lump a 147 into "the low 150's," unfortunately.  You could win the lottery and get accepted, but I agree with other commenters that the odds are seriously stacked against you. 

For what it's worth, I was accepted to two top 25 programs (but not top 10) with a 152 on the quant section of the GRE and low 160's on the verbal.  I had a pretty strong application otherwise, I think, but it wasn't perfect.  Furthermore, my initial GRE quant scores were quite low, below yours, but after concerted effort on Magoosh, I was able to raise them from 146 -> 152.  I would absolutely recommend Magoosh over any other online testing service.  As someone who has used all of them, I found Magoosh second to none (of course, the official ETS practice test is good, but I appreciated that Magoosh had video explanations and lessons, ETS doesn't offer that).  

The last thing I'll say is that, depending on how your GRE/application situation evolves, I think you should consider some programs outside the top 10.  Everyone wants to attend a top 10, but for many of us it just isn't feasible for one reason or another.  I think programs outside the top 10 can still offer a lot of value and put you in a good position.  If you don't mind losing a couple hundred dollars, I'd say go ahead and submit some apps this year w/o the GRE score, see if you get in anywhere, and then consider retaking the GRE.  I imagine it would help improve your score if you could still take it while it's being offered remotely.   

I hope this is helpful.  Best of luck to you.   

       

 

 

I'll just add that I remember you had another offer at another really competitive program, which confirms to me that you must be one of those very rare outliers who had comparably (to most) weak GRE scores while there must have been something in your application that made you amazing basically.

[gradpumpkin]

Just to add a related question since this is a GRE thread, I was wondering what y'all think about listing GRE scores on my application (in my CV or elsewhere) and not sending in official scores for GRE optional schools. Basically, still providing my scores for test optional schools but not paying the fee for each and every school to send the OFFICIAL scores since it's optional anyways. I'm applying to a lot of schools and am trying to cut costs where I can. Would this result in them putting any weight into my scores? Or just worry about me being dishonest about the scores?

 

Also, is there any kind of threshold for what kind of scores you think are send-worthy vs. not? I know this would obviously vary by the ranking of the school, but I'm wondering, for example, what kinds of scores are sendworthy for a top 20 vs top 40 school. Any thoughts?