Don't Do a PhD in History

[d1389jjch]

Were you include community college instructors? I can find many full-time community college instructor positions available, but I am not sure how competitive they are.

[Yorgo]

Since I see the thread is still active, I will weigh in too. I did an Mphil in Cambridge and a PhD in Oxford in Modern European History. Like the OP, I don't feel bitter, but a history PhD isn't something I can honestly recommend as a path to a job. It probably is a good place to be, having a secure income (scholarship) and health insurance, esp. given the current situation. You'll meet interesting people and learn a lot. But it is a significant investment of time with uncertain professional prospects. 

[Prophecies]

@YorgoThoughts on just getting an Mphil / MA in history? 

[Yorgo]

@PropheciesMPhil in Cambridge was 9 months long (October to June) and it gave me the tools to do archival research on my own. If you can get in a program like this (research based and relatively short) I think it is worth the trouble assuming you have a scholarship and what you want to do is focus on research and writing.

I would not recommend a 2 year MPhil (eg like the one available in Oxford; at least back when I was a student 7-8 years ago) unless I wanted to do a PhD afterwards. It's more than twice longer in duration, much of the extra time is spent on courses that are advanced versions of what you get in an undergraduate degree (although there is more emphasis on methodology) and the second year is dedicated to writing a thesis that is expected to become a chapter of your PhD.

tldr: I would give emphasis on the duration and relevance of the content of the MPhil/MA to what I want to do after with this knowledge.

Hope this helps. 

 

[Sigaba]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:50 PM, Calgacus said:

This sounds like you're trying to excuse a clearly systemic short-coming of both academia broadly and graduate education specifically. The soft skills you outlined (juggling teaching and research responsibilities, being able to synthesize information, etc.) are not developed in the dynamic way you imply they can you used for.

The bottom line is that it should not be the responsibility of grad students to find external "side" gigs that will enable them to be employable at the end of the PhD, but that is the reality today. And this reality is what leads @remenis and others to underscore the PhD's immense financial and time cost. The vast majority of programs still insist on running programs geared towards developing students for TT jobs. With TT jobs now being virtually nonexistent, the PhD itself becomes the side gig (or labor of love, or vanity project, or however one wants to frame it based on their level of cynicism). 

Your framing seems to miss the scale of the problem at multiple levels-- the viability of the careers of individual graduate students that the discipline continues to churn out, *and* the viability of the discipline/"profession" itself. Excusing the deeply problematic ethics of individual faculty, specific programs, or of academia broadly that maintain the current system because it provides grads with life lessons/opportunities to fail/succeed seems misguided and borderline cruel to me. 

I feel attacked. I feel misunderstood. I feel like you didn't read my comments and instead launched into an airing of your grievances with me as your straw man. How about that. 

Before I put my meticulously written hurt feelings report in the circular file, I'll offer a clarification and ask a couple of questions.

Here's the clarification  so that there's no confusion about what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'm responsible for the choices that I made as an undergraduate (not working hard enough on the fundamental skills I would need as a grad student) and as a graduate student (not learning how to look before leaping). Yes, I can point to pivotal instances where I wish this professor or that one or that one had been more professional but those let downs were the products of my choices. 

Here are the questions. If should not be an individual's responsibility to develop resources and skills to find gainful employment upon leaving school, then what should that individual's responsibilities be? (Well, since, you got a little salty in your reply, I'll rephrase. For what outcomes of your chosen path do you, @Calgacus, take responsibility?)

[AfricanusCrowther]

10 hours ago, Sigaba said:

Here's the clarification  so that there's no confusion about what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'm responsible for the choices that I made as an undergraduate (not working hard enough on the fundamental skills I would need as a grad student) and as a graduate student (not learning how to look before leaping). Yes, I can point to pivotal instances where I wish this professor or that one or that one had been more professional but those let downs were the products of my choices. 

 

In my view, it's desirable for institutions to limit the range of bad decisions that people can make. Your logic appears to me to be the same as those who argue, e.g., for limiting the regulation of consumer products, or allowing retirement plan managers to offer bad investment plans so long as they also offer good ones. I would prefer unsafe products to be taken off the market than to rely on consumers to make informed decisions about whether they want to buy a death trap of a car or baby toy. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by AfricanusCrowther

[dr. t]

Unsurprisingly, I agree with the social democrat and not the libertarian ?

[Sigaba]

8 hours ago, AfricanusCrowther said:

In my view, it's desirable for institutions to limit the range of bad decisions that people can make. Your logic appears to me to be the same as those who argue, e.g., for limiting the regulation of consumer products, or allowing retirement plan managers to offer bad investment plans so long as they also offer good ones. I would prefer unsafe products to be taken off the market than to rely on consumers to make informed decisions about whether they want to buy a death trap of a car or baby toy. 

I would like to think that we respect each other enough not to resort to making assumptions about views on topics unrelated to our comments on the topic of professional academic history.

Your deployment of conjecture under the guise of logical appearances is bad form. I would prefer that you ask clarification if my comments are unclear rather than attempting to put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

 

[AfricanusCrowther]

1 hour ago, Sigaba said:

I would like to think that we respect each other enough not to resort to making assumptions about views on topics unrelated to our comments on the topic of professional academic history.

Your deployment of conjecture under the guise of logical appearances is bad form. I would prefer that you ask clarification if my comments are unclear rather than attempting to put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

 

That’s silly. It’s an analogy. Of course I don’t presume to know your views on consumer product regulation. You are the one who is arguing in bad faith — by suggesting that I only criticize your claim because I’m somehow seeking to damage your reputation.

[Sigaba]

On 2/9/2022 at 7:27 PM, AfricanusCrowther said:

That’s silly. It’s an analogy. Of course I don’t presume to know your views on consumer product regulation. You are the one who is arguing in bad faith — by suggesting that I only criticize your claim because I’m somehow seeking to damage your reputation.

It's unfortunate that you continue to take things in this direction.  It's not so much that I'm concerned about my reputation. It's that I am looking for ways to avoid responding to you in a tone similar to yours. If you want to continue going down this path of personal characterizations, shoot me a private message and we can figure something out. Otherwise, I urge you to consider the benefits of not attempting to denigrate my intellect or my character.

IRT the topic of this thread, let me try once again to take things in a different direction.

Klio is a hearbreaker. How each person deals with that heartbreak is different and how each person deals with the pain can change over time. For now, I'm dealing with mine by taking responsibility for what I could have controlled. I've shared my thoughts with a couple of professors, including a person in a position to make changes in his department. Beyond that, I'm working on sublimating a shifting constellation of thoughts and feelings about the historical profession and my experiences in graduate school.

 

[ladydobz]

Since this topic is here, I'm going to put in my two cents for what they're worth. 

I graduated with my BA in Organizational Leadership with double minors in history and anthropology in 2011. I took several turns in my undergrad career as I'm intensely passionate about history. I was in fact, only three classes away from graduating with a double major in Org Leadership and History. But since the history program had just gone online at the time, there was no guarantee when I would get those classes I needed. So, since I was getting married, and we were moving and wanting to start our life, I decided just to graduate. 

Fast forward to 2020. I've been in the job market for nine years, I'm pregnant with my second child, I have a good job, a steady, well-paid job, but I was itching to go back to school. I was 34. I thought I was too old to pursue a PhD. I thought the job market was a lot better than it was. I reapplied as a post-bac to my Alma Mater to go back for my degree in History. I get in. I start classes. And then I talk to my program advisor. The job market is in the tank. Tenure track positions are not out there, and many programs are in fact restructuring to try and move away from them, and go to contract positions. 

But what I want to do is TEACH. And I don't want to teach at the k-12 level. So, I talk to my husband about it. He has a great job with amazing benefits, and with his career track, once he gets this promotion he's due for in April, if I didn't want to, I wouldn't have to work. So, I pushed on. I'm applying for PhD programs for admission Fall 2023. My focus is History of Medicine and Women's History/Women in Medicine/Women's Health History. I've spoken with several professors who I'm interested in working with, and I've visited the campuses of all three programs I'm applying to. I've gotten a lot of interest from them. 

However, I know none of this is a guarantee. And would I recommend this process to someone who is going to depend on a tenure track salary to live? Absolutely not. I think that every person who is looking to go into this path needs to know all the facts before they take it on. For someone like me who is doing this for personal reasons, and who would happily teach as an adjunct or at a community college, it's great. If I happen to find a tenure track position open, will I go for it? Absolutely. I'd love the ability to get into a tenure track position, and have all the things that go with it. But am I banking on it? Nope. 

So, TLDR: If you have a good plan in place to support yourself if your dreams of being in academia aren't going to pan out, by all means, go for the PhD. But go into it fully informed.

[AfricanusCrowther]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:53 AM, ladydobz said:

 For someone like me who is doing this for personal reasons, and who would happily teach as an adjunct or at a community college, it's great.

Even these jobs are not easily gotten anymore.

[psstein]

2 hours ago, AfricanusCrowther said:

Even these jobs are not easily gotten anymore.

You could very easily argue that many full-time CC jobs are better than the average equivalent full-time TT jobs at a PUI...

[cladthecrab]

I see that it's come up in this thread to an extent, but is the landscape any less bleak for those applying for things like public sector, non-profit, or consulting jobs, or does the PhD just make one over-qualified in those fields? I'm finishing my MA this year and it has occurred to me that I'd love another several years to dig deeper into my thesis topic, and the stipend income hasn't been bad living for me (mostly), but my fear (particularly as someone who has no interest in being a professor) is whether there will be enough jobs at the end of that tunnel.

[AP]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:58 PM, cladthecrab said:

I see that it's come up in this thread to an extent, but is the landscape any less bleak for those applying for things like public sector, non-profit, or consulting jobs, or does the PhD just make one over-qualified in those fields? I'm finishing my MA this year and it has occurred to me that I'd love another several years to dig deeper into my thesis topic, and the stipend income hasn't been bad living for me (mostly), but my fear (particularly as someone who has no interest in being a professor) is whether there will be enough jobs at the end of that tunnel.

This is a great question.

My PhD friends who are in the federal government are very happy. They work good hours and make good money. I have some friends in academic-adjacent jobs (librarians, etc), some because the professoriate didn't pan out for them, others out of choice. 

In all cases, they all made the PhD work for them. Eg: federal jobs pay more. However, I doubt that you would need a PhD for those positions, if you have other skills. 

My suggestion would be to contact those folks and ask them. They are better equipped to talk about the qualifications for their jobs. Maybe @dr. telkanuru can help too. 

[psstein]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:58 PM, cladthecrab said:

I see that it's come up in this thread to an extent, but is the landscape any less bleak for those applying for things like public sector, non-profit, or consulting jobs, or does the PhD just make one over-qualified in those fields? I'm finishing my MA this year and it has occurred to me that I'd love another several years to dig deeper into my thesis topic, and the stipend income hasn't been bad living for me (mostly), but my fear (particularly as someone who has no interest in being a professor) is whether there will be enough jobs at the end of that tunnel.

From my own perspective in the consulting world, a lot of firms don't fully understand the value of a non-STEM PhD (or non-MBA masters'). It won't hurt you, but it may lead to some unnecessary frustrations. FWIW, I'm a bit of a weird case, because my MA thesis is related to my current job.

[AfricanusCrowther]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:58 PM, cladthecrab said:

I see that it's come up in this thread to an extent, but is the landscape any less bleak for those applying for things like public sector, non-profit, or consulting jobs, or does the PhD just make one over-qualified in those fields? I'm finishing my MA this year and it has occurred to me that I'd love another several years to dig deeper into my thesis topic, and the stipend income hasn't been bad living for me (mostly), but my fear (particularly as someone who has no interest in being a professor) is whether there will be enough jobs at the end of that tunnel.

It is very difficult to get alt-ac jobs in the public sector. Most employers are skeptical of applicants with no concrete experience. If you go down this path, I would strongly suggest trying to 1. secure a part-time internship (or several) during your PhD in the desired industry, if allowed to do so; 2. find a way to take courses in or teach yourself "hard skills" 3. make time for informational interviews and networking

Some consulting firms have internships designed for PhDs, so that route may hold more promise.

[psstein]

In the past, I've mentioned that there's an "expiration date" for PhDs. This came to my attention today:

 

 

[Permagnus]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:44 AM, exitiumax said:

From my perspective, it seems like secondary education teaching is a great alternative to academia for PhDs. It offers decent pay (particularly if you're willing to move to certain cities and/or towns), unionization, and retirement plans. Not to mention, PhDs are treated exceptionally well in high schools, by faculty, admin, and students. Sure, it's not as glamorous, and it may feel like a bastardization of history, but nonetheless it's consistent -- and (potentially) rewarding. 

 

What are others thoughts on this? Perhaps those who considered this alternate path but opted not to? Would love to hear from folks who have completed their doctoral degrees.

 

- A high school teacher hoping to be admitted to a PhD program. 

Well, here we are in the last weeks of 2024, and I wanted to excavate this topic once more in hopes that someone might be able to shed a little light on exitiumax's question.

I completed a B.S. in History and very recently, a M.A. in Teaching as a way of mitigating some of the consequences of what definitely appears to be a bleak outlook on career possibilities (or impossibilities, rather) for those who have a Ph.D. in History.  Thus, secondary education is where I'm destined to be for the foreseeable future.

Instead of looking at the Ph.D. in History as something that can "open doors to new paths" (as we've firmly established that this would be a mistake), would it be something that might "enhance the paths that we're already on"?

[bevjer03]

Thank you for such a candid perspective. It’s a sobering reminder of the reality many PhDs face, especially in history. While the intellectual journey has its merits, the opportunity cost is undeniably significant. It’s a tricky path, prospective students should weigh these insights carefully.