Help please...

[Bubal]

Hi everyone!

After waiting out for almost 4 months, my situation is this one: I have been rejected to a Master in Public Policy in NYU, American, Georgetown, GWU, Northeastern University, University of Chicago. And I'm still waiting for the last school Loyola University in Chicago.

So I would like to apply to 2 more schools by mid of May. Which school with a good MPP program will you recommend me? I will be happy if is between top 20 in the country. I’m more interested in Public Policy Analysis.

Thank you in advance, I really need advice.

More info about me:

This is my overall profile:

GPA 2.91 (The bachelor degree is 5 years long here) (Last 2 years 3.4)

Got minimum require TOEFL score for all schools.

GRE: 1000 in total (I know, my verbal is low ).

My letters of recommendations and PS are very strong.

I've been doing voluntary work for 4 year and been travelling a lot because of that, was having lots of responsability and its related to my field. I've been working since I'm 18.

I'm working very hard in my Personal Statement. (not finish yet).

[matcha]

Are you trying for this coming fall? Most schools have firm deadlines in December or January. A couple of schools might have rolling deadlines, but I'm not sure of which ones.

From your list of schools you did apply to, your ambitions are high. Would you be satisfied with any school at this point, or would you rather try again for your dream schools? Perhaps it is worth taking a year off and gaining experience as well as improving those GRE scores.

[Bubal]

matcha, thans for your answer.

I want to start by fall 2010, because I already spent this year working in order to save money and continue with my studies. I could have improved my GRE, and other parts of my application. But because of many reasons I can't wait another year. So I'm considering getting in a competitive program in the USA or otherwise, apply to a school in Europe.

(I'm from Spain and my voluntary work of 4 years has relation with the EU).

Can you give me advice about schools? I'm interested in the northeast of the country.

Btw, have you hear about Loyola University in Chicago? Is the one I have left.

Thanks

Are you trying for this coming fall? Most schools have firm deadlines in December or January. A couple of schools might have rolling deadlines, but I'm not sure of which ones.

From your list of schools you did apply to, your ambitions are high. Would you be satisfied with any school at this point, or would you rather try again for your dream schools? Perhaps it is worth taking a year off and gaining experience as well as improving those GRE scores.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Bubal

[matcha]

Here's a few places to start:

http://www.petersons.com/ugchannel/code/LateDeadlineSchools.asp

Does it have to be an MPP, or would you want an MPA? More MPA's have rolling admissions than MPP's. I'm not sure why...

CIPA, Fisher, Roosevelt, and Northeastern have rolling admissions. Brandeis has a late admission, although I'm not sure when. That's just after a quick search. I'm sure you can find more, if you look around.

[pea-jay]

Baruch (CUNY) has a rolling admit process as does VCU. But it is pretty late in the game and you'd probably do better retaking the GRE and applying for the Spring 2011 or Fall 2011 admit cycle.

[Octavia]

Hi everyone!

After waiting out for almost 4 months, my situation is this one: I have been rejected to a Master in Public Policy in NYU, American, Georgetown, GWU, Northeastern University, University of Chicago. And I'm still waiting for the last school Loyola University in Chicago.

So I would like to apply to 2 more schools by mid of May. Which school with a good MPP program will you recommend me? I will be happy if is between top 20 in the country. I’m more interested in Public Policy Analysis.

Thank you in advance, I really need advice.

More info about me:

This is my overall profile:

GPA 2.91 (The bachelor degree is 5 years long here) (Last 2 years 3.4)

Got minimum require TOEFL score for all schools.

GRE: 1000 in total (I know, my verbal is low ).

My letters of recommendations and PS are very strong.

I've been doing voluntary work for 4 year and been travelling a lot because of that, was having lots of responsability and its related to my field. I've been working since I'm 18.

I'm working very hard in my Personal Statement. (not finish yet).

I think you should wait and apply in 2-3 years. You really seem to have no strenghts. You mention that you've been doing voluntary work and travelling a lot but this sort of "experience" is not commensurate with public policy analysis. You do know the quant background required for public policy analysis? Have you taken micro and macroeconomics? Calculus?

Also, you should really work on your GRE scores. Your scores are very low (even for an international student) and so is your GPA. In the admission committee's eyes, your academic background and analytical ability are just not where they should be. If you aced the GREs (or had a higher GPA, which is not possible), got some solid work experience, I think you could have a chance at American or GWU, perhaps even G-town.

I hope that helps.

[coaks]

I think you should wait and apply in 2-3 years. You really seem to have no strenghts. You mention that you've been doing voluntary work and travelling a lot but this sort of "experience" is not commensurate with public policy analysis. You do know the quant background required for public policy analysis? Have you taken micro and macroeconomics? Calculus?

Also, you should really work on your GRE scores. Your scores are very low (even for an international student) and so is your GPA. In the admission committee's eyes, your academic background and analytical ability are just not where they should be. If you aced the GREs (or had a higher GPA, which is not possible), got some solid work experience, I think you could have a chance at American or GWU, perhaps even G-town.

I hope that helps.

I don't buy the travelling and volunteer work not being experience for MPP. It shows passion and is easily marketable in the SOP. The OP says his/her SOP and recs were strong so I think it's way too harsh to say he/she has no strengths whatsoever. I also don't believe an MPP candidate needs to have an understanding of micro/macro/calc before starting. Most schools recommend them and some might make calculus specifically a condition of acceptance but you can always take that after finding out. They teach it to you as part of their core for a reason. If you already know it, why would you take it?

I do agree that boosting the GRE and maybe more work experience could help but if MPP/MPA is what you want now, Bubal, you should go for it. You'll never know what's possible until you try. You applied to the three top Chicago schools -- are you located there? DePaul, UIC and IIT all offer public affairs degrees and seem to cast wider nets than the other three. There are obviously other programs in DC including George Mason. Baruch and the other CUNYs are good options in NY.

[Octavia]

I don't buy the travelling and volunteer work not being experience for MPP. It shows passion and is easily marketable in the SOP. The OP says his/her SOP and recs were strong so I think it's way too harsh to say he/she has no strengths whatsoever. I also don't believe an MPP candidate needs to have an understanding of micro/macro/calc before starting. Most schools recommend them and some might make calculus specifically a condition of acceptance but you can always take that after finding out. They teach it to you as part of their core for a reason. If you already know it, why would you take it?

I do agree that boosting the GRE and maybe more work experience could help but if MPP/MPA is what you want now, Bubal, you should go for it. You'll never know what's possible until you try. You applied to the three top Chicago schools -- are you located there? DePaul, UIC and IIT all offer public affairs degrees and seem to cast wider nets than the other three. There are obviously other programs in DC including George Mason. Baruch and the other CUNYs are good options in NY.

Well, Bubal mentioned that he is interested in public policy analysis. What do you think that implies? Policy analysis is heavily quant based. Unless during his travelling and volunteering work, Bubal familiarized himself with Multivariable Calculus and Microeconomics, his experience is irrelevant. It would look good on a college admission resume. As to your claim that an MPP candidate doesn't need micro/macro etc before stting - the claim contradicts information found on virtually every website of every respectable program. Princeton WWS requires the following: "A list of mathematics, economics, and politics courses completed or in progress". G-town lists this as an absolute pre-requisite: "Two (three credits each) courses in Macro and Micro Economics with a final grade of B or better. Courses in economic development, comparative economic systems, economic geography, economic history or other such courses are not considered as substitutes for the principles of economics courses listed above." in addition to highly recommended "statistics and calculus coursework". Columbia SIPA: "While there are no specific course requirements to apply, most successful candidates have a record of success in courses such as: Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Math courses such as Linear Algebra, Pre-Calculus or Calculus and Statistics". Notice, record of success - obviously taking intro to calculus and getting a B- wouldn't count as success.

And no, most school don't teach it as part of their core. They build on skills students already have to equip future policy makers with sophisticated techniques applicable in management and analysis. WWS has a three-week math camp for admitted student but its purpose is to "refresh" their math skills not teach them from scratch: "math courses are offered in four varieties--one with algebra, trigonometry, and brief calculus, and three that are calculus-based. The most advanced features a steady diet of linear algebra and multivariate calculus". Can you imagine somebody with no background in the above, experience multivariate calculus for the first time and then "having fun" in this intro course in the fall? : :http://wws.princeton.edu/grad/courses/syllabi_S10/WWS505.pdf

Obviously, your knowledge of the reparation for and curriculum of any MPP program is very limited.

[coaks]

Hey I have no intention of starting an argument Octavia. I just hate to see people outright ridiculed online. It disappointed me to see someone picked apart. That all said, nothing you wrote changes my opinion in the slightest.

Princeton makes it clear that their faculty will use best judgement in determining whether candidates are suited for the quantitative rigor. They also assure candidates that they will be given every opportunity to succeed:

"Faculty evaluate the applicant's preparation for courses in economic and quantitative analysis. There is no prescribed undergraduate major for the M.P.P. degree, but familiarity with social science disciplines makes the learning curve less steep at the outset. A six-week summer program beginning in July is required for all M.P.P. students which prepares students for the pace of the curriculum. "

(http://wws.princeton...p-requirements/)

I couldn't find any micro/macro requirement for Georgetown's MPP program. All I see is the following making it clear that there is no required prior coursework:

"While the GPPI does not require prior quantitative training, the program's core curriculum is rigorous in nature and completion of prior course work in pre-calculus or calculus, microeconomics, and statistics is strongly recommended. "

(http://gppi.georgeto...ions/12492.html)

Columbia states that most successful candidates have prior quant coursework but they make it clear that prior quant is not required. Note that they say most, not all, successful candidates. I'm not arguing that acing stats/micro/macro/calc doesn't boost your application but I just don't buy the idea that these schools would reject an otherwise incredibly compelling candidate out-of-hand simply because he/she lacked these courses. Is Bubal the otherwise incredibly compelling candidate? It might not appear that way but you or I don't know that and we shouldn't pass judgement.

Finally, that syllabus at WWS assumes no knowledge of finance, economics or calculus, states that PhD candidates would probably prefer a more quantitatively rigorous course and mentions that it's modeled after a first year MBA course, many of which are noted for their lack of academic rigor when compared to other graduate-level courses.

Look Bubal can read these threads. He/she can see what hard stats we have. He/she can see class profiles for some of the schools online and read what they suggest. But if after all that, he/she wants to throw in a few more apps this year and see what happens, he/she should go for it. I wish both you and Bubal the best of luck in your applications.

Edited May 7, 2010 by coakleym

[Minerva473]

Well, Bubal mentioned that he is interested in public policy analysis. What do you think that implies? Policy analysis is heavily quant based. Unless during his travelling and volunteering work, Bubal familiarized himself with Multivariable Calculus and Microeconomics, his experience is irrelevant. It would look good on a college admission resume. As to your claim that an MPP candidate doesn't need micro/macro etc before stting - the claim contradicts information found on virtually every website of every respectable program. Princeton WWS requires the following: "A list of mathematics, economics, and politics courses completed or in progress". G-town lists this as an absolute pre-requisite: "Two (three credits each) courses in Macro and Micro Economics with a final grade of B or better. Courses in economic development, comparative economic systems, economic geography, economic history or other such courses are not considered as substitutes for the principles of economics courses listed above." in addition to highly recommended "statistics and calculus coursework". Columbia SIPA: "While there are no specific course requirements to apply, most successful candidates have a record of success in courses such as: Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Math courses such as Linear Algebra, Pre-Calculus or Calculus and Statistics". Notice, record of success - obviously taking intro to calculus and getting a B- wouldn't count as success.

And no, most school don't teach it as part of their core. They build on skills students already have to equip future policy makers with sophisticated techniques applicable in management and analysis. WWS has a three-week math camp for admitted student but its purpose is to "refresh" their math skills not teach them from scratch: "math courses are offered in four varieties--one with algebra, trigonometry, and brief calculus, and three that are calculus-based. The most advanced features a steady diet of linear algebra and multivariate calculus". Can you imagine somebody with no background in the above, experience multivariate calculus for the first time and then "having fun" in this intro course in the fall? : :http://wws.princeton.edu/grad/courses/syllabi_S10/WWS505.pdf

Obviously, your knowledge of the reparation for and curriculum of any MPP program is very limited.

I almost didn't apply this year because I was worried about my econ/math/stats background, and went so far as to do distance learning in these subjects this year to prepare (the transcripts for these were not available at the time of application but at the time I thought I'd need to show I was making an effort). However, I realized soon enough that these programs don't require high levels of econ/math/stats, they just recommend it and want to know you can handle their curriculum. I'm glad I did the distance learning because (hopefully) it will allow me to pass out of some core classes, but MPPs and MPAs are not that quantitative (if you compare it to an econ MA or Phd or a stats MA) -- they aim to give you the background to be an educated consumer of empirical studies, not a creator of empirical studies. People who want to do serious quantitative research do Ph.Ds.

I was accepted to the Georgetown MPP, the Fletcher School and the Maxwell School at Syracuse University, all with varying levels of funding, with high school calculus, one introductory microeconomics class and a linear algebra class. I was a literature major in college. My college roommate never touched calculus, her math and verbal GRE scores were both in the 500s and she got into the Harvard Kennedy School right out of college for the MPP.

The MPA-ID at Harvard is very strict about quantitative background, but that's because they do PhD level economics.

[Bubal]

Thanks for your time guys!

Well, I studied political science and government affairs in the most well known university in Spain (Universidad Complutense, but unfortunately has nothing tgo do with US universities) and I did most of my electives courses in the faculty of economics (one os my two references is from the economics dean, who has been teaching in the US). So I do have a strong background in quant. Actually, and as i said, my GRE result in Q is much higher than the one in Verbal section. Anyway, I know my GRE results are low, I point out in the SoP that I only had one chance and was ill during that dates.

- When i refereed that I have voluntary work experience, does not have to do with punctual activities. I was the international officer (European and worldwide) of a young association, so I traveled to many different countries in order to take active place in Seminars and Congresses that were having an impact in real politics. A part from that, I was also helping in local campaigning.

I'm also considering about applying to an MPP program in London, is only one year, 8,000-14,000 pounds, I can work after graduation. I'm still waiting out for an answer from Loyola University in Chicago ( I had a look to some reviews http://www.studentsreview.com/IL/LYU_u.html) and for me seems that paying/invest such a high amount of money in order to not been in a top school (considering my profile-> ¿ top20?) makes me think seriously about staying in Europe. Because afterwards this seems to not make an important impact in my future professional carrier. Waiting another year in order to do a master is not an option for me, I'm already 26 and I want to start my professional carrier as soon as possible.

Thanks Matcha for the link, is very useful. At the moment, I'm interested in the MPP, rather than MPA.

I'm going to do some research today and tomorrow and will post more info.

Thanks again for your comments!