History MA from German BA?

[duesseldreamer]

Hi all,

Formerly lurked here for the 2016-2017 Fulbright season but never had a reason to post anything. Would absolutely love to hear from all of you.

I have a BA in German Studies from a less prominent R1 university. I've spent some years working at a non profit and am considering returning to grad school in the coming years. I have wanted to study history/historiography essentially my entire life, focus approximately being the "long 19th century". Just to get it out of the way, I know (certainly from threads here) how bad the PhD situation is. As I don't have a BA in the field, I assume I'd probably have to do some sort of intervening master's degree anyway, and that sounds just grand by itself. I'll see how it goes from there.

My dream would be a program such as the global history program at Free University of Berlin/Humboldt, but I know from personal experience living in Germany and auditing some courses that there are many excellent and globally oriented programs in the time frame I'm looking at many German universities. For personal interest, language proficiency reasons, and the tuition issue, I am definitely set on studying in Europe. 

 

The issue: I have a peculiar BA. I have a relatively low credit count in the upper level liberal arts and history, about the minimum to graduate, because I originally went to school for business and could only pull off the BA because they offered a lower credit count for a dual-degree program (that is, I have a BA diploma and a BS diploma, it was not a double major, it is just relatively low on credits). And I have no idea how strict the standard would be for recognizing cultural/language studies as history-like courses. 

I basically have no idea if this is a big problem, what sort of problem it is, or how one makes up for it. I briefly googled "Master of Liberal Studies" programs, as well as, for example, a 1 year German Studies MA in Europe that would, I would think, give me the opportunity to build more credits/writing samples in rigorous cultural studies/history. I have no idea if these options make sense at all (spending an extra year does not strike me as painful financially or personally, fwiw). I cannot think of another graduate program that I could get into other than those. The notion of going back for UG credits sounds painful by comparison. 

I guess my question is am I making a mountain out of a mole hill, or am I correct that as I am now, I don't really qualify for an MA in history? Or at least one with competitive admissions. And if so, what do I do about it? Is there some other path I am woefully ignorant of?

Hope this starts a conversation

Edited December 11, 2020 by duesseldreamer

[Sigaba]

I am not qualified to comment on European graduate programs.

Were you in the United States I would urge you to work on defining yourself as a historian, refining your SOP,  getting strong LoRs and polishing your writing sample. I would additionally recommend that you focus less on the history classes you didn't take and more on the ones that you did. How does your coursework as an undergraduate position you to be a competitive applicant? (And I would suggest that you give thought to applying to at least one doctoral program.) 

I would also point out that your interest in historiography, the long nineteenth century, B.S. degree, and (assumed) fluency in German would make you a frightening classmate to have. 

Have you given any thought to the kinds of research projects you'd want to pursue as a graduate student? Are there ways to leverage your b.s.? (One of your fields could be "business history," your outside field could see you taking more business classes, and your knowledge of business practices could potential enable you to serve the historical profession -- one of the bigger lessons learned of COVID-19 is that academics don't know how to make sense of budget documents/spreadsheets.)

 

[d1389jjch]

As far as I know, most German MA programs do not require SOP and they need your undergraduate degree to match their programs. I would email them to ask if your undergraduate courses in German studies count as a related field. 

3 hours ago, duesseldreamer said:

For personal interest, language proficiency reasons, and the tuition issue, I am definitely set on studying in Europe. 

Could you explain more about this? In the US and Canada, there are some funded or low-cost History MA programs that welcome non-History major undergraduate students to apply. Why wouldn't you consider these opportunities?

[essiec]

1 hour ago, Sigaba said:

I would also point out that your interest in historiography, the long nineteenth century, B.S. degree, and (assumed) fluency in German would make you a frightening classmate to have. 

lol. i love it. 

2 hours ago, duesseldreamer said:

I have no idea how strict the standard would be for recognizing cultural/language studies as history-like courses. 

@d1389jjch's suggestion about US and Canada resonates. I'm not sure what kind of fields were involved in the German Studies BA, but I think they'll count for something. At least in North America, I get the sense a lot of departments are happy to see interdisciplinary studies. One of my MA cohort friends did her BA in American Studies, and even her research in the History MA is still very "studies" flavored. So, I don't think German Studies necessarily disqualifies you from a History MA right away (although I have no idea to what degree it is the case for German universities).

If you have the appropriate language for your area of focus, that's very important, especially going into MA programs that emphasize research and PhD programs too. A lot of your cultural language courses probably included a unit on history; you could emphasize this in a SOP or something as a source of inspiration or interest for your pursuit of grad studies. My undergrad minor (in transnational/comparative studies) included some overviews of political science/relations type stuff, you can always spin it a contextual way where you'd like to better understand the historical roots of current issues or something like that. The fact you are interested in (and, actually, even know of) historiography shows that you're not just into antiquarian stuff-- you have a real sense of the discipline already. Emphasize the work you've done in upper division history courses, even if they were few.

I agree with @Sigaba that you should start churning up some good idea for research projects-- potential primary sources to dig into further? a historiographic argument you want to explore? It also might help to do some research on schools that tend to have a pretty interdisciplinary focus. If they have various collaborative workshops/clusters/seminars/events, etc., these will be great to know how you could fit into the university with your own educational background.

Best of luck!

[Tigla]

Having studied in Germany, I can tell you that your GPA is the most important thing in an application to an MA program. They have odd requirements to apply, such as 'x amount of credits in history,' but those can be waived. The other major hurdle will be language proficiency, as you said. Most German programs require at least C1 level German while other "international programs" require B1 German plus B1 in another foreign language that is not your native language.

My first step would be to research programs and try to find some that you are interested in. From there, we can begin thinking through how you fit into the program and whether you are eligible to apply. You will find that there are some general rules across universities, but there is a ton of diversity and flexibility if you know how to ask a question. European bureaucracy is a thing, but it isn't as rigid as many people make it seem.

With that said, what programs have you looked into? Which ones do you like? Why?

[duesseldreamer]

11 hours ago, Sigaba said:

I am not qualified to comment on European graduate programs.

Were you in the United States I would urge you to work on defining yourself as a historian, refining your SOP,  getting strong LoRs and polishing your writing sample. I would additionally recommend that you focus less on the history classes you didn't take and more on the ones that you did. How does your coursework as an undergraduate position you to be a competitive applicant? (And I would suggest that you give thought to applying to at least one doctoral program.) 

I would also point out that your interest in historiography, the long nineteenth century, B.S. degree, and (assumed) fluency in German would make you a frightening classmate to have. 

Have you given any thought to the kinds of research projects you'd want to pursue as a graduate student? Are there ways to leverage your b.s.? (One of your fields could be "business history," your outside field could see you taking more business classes, and your knowledge of business practices could potential enable you to serve the historical profession -- one of the bigger lessons learned of COVID-19 is that academics don't know how to make sense of budget documents/spreadsheets.)

 

Thanks so much for your reply, and for the compliment. Frightening classmate is exactly what I want to be, to be perfectly honest. 

Unfortunately it seems like I can't edit the main post anymore. I am going to more or less copy paste some stuff in this reply to the other responses, and hopefully new comments see it first. 

> would additionally recommend that you focus less on the history classes you didn't take and more on the ones that you did.

Of course. I appreciate you writing this. I felt the post was getting too long, but it was silly to not include more info in this area.  I minored in medieval studies and did several history-oriented German courses, including an independent research project that appears on my transcript that was essentially a literature review of German sources on post WW2 population movements in Central/Eastern Europe. Let's just start there: A medieval studies minor and WW2 history! I'm freaking all over the place. To be totally honest this is how I see my issue: I have done good UG work that anyone would call history, but it's all over the place, and aside from the broad German/European-ness of the topics they are not particularly related to my interests in European/global encounters in the early modern era. 

>work on defining yourself as a historian, refining your SOP,  getting strong LoRs and polishing your writing sample.

I have a LoR for sure from a German professor at my university. I could use my independent research project^^ as a writing sample, but would it make more sense to just... write a paper on a topic more germane to my interests? 

A huge mistake I made relevant to both of these topics is that, while auditing history courses in Germany on my fulbright, I failed to do any papers or projects. The professor loved me, invited me to his classes (and he's at an even more impressive swiss federal uni now), but I (assume?) he couldn't agree to recommend me when all he watched me produce was a powerpoint presentation on some books and make clever comments in his clases. His courses were on British Empire, global class formation, in both English and German, grad and undergrad. I feel that I really fucked up not leaving a paper trail there, but I had no idea what my future path would be. 

>business history?

No not at all, lol, sorry. Optimizing a profit target using Excel solver is not something I think I will be able to easily shoe horn into a paper about central european colonial exploits in the 19th century (I hope that doesn't sound rude, I just know what I studied). I can bring a great interdisciplinary perspective between German and business to say, European Union studies, but it's not my interest. I actually have an MS in accounting and while I welcome the clout of coming from outside the humanities, I hate everything about it. I think it's worth mentioning: I'm saying it this way because I'm seeking advice in a safe space. OF COURSE I would talk this stuff up to some sort of advisor or person deciding to admit me into a program. Just, honestly, I see no link at all between "the market for lemons" and "colony and metropole". 

[duesseldreamer]

9 hours ago, d1389jjch said:

As far as I know, most German MA programs do not require SOP and they need your undergraduate degree to match their programs. I would email them to ask if your undergraduate courses in German studies count as a related field. 

Could you explain more about this? In the US and Canada, there are some funded or low-cost History MA programs that welcome non-History major undergraduate students to apply. Why wouldn't you consider these opportunities?

Some programs definitely leave out an email and I wasn't sure if it was simple as that. I guess I will have to start doing that.

To be totally honest it seems like this board's leitmotif is funded north american programs. I can say 1. in my experience the CoL in North America ( I am from major NE metropolis) is so much higher that it smothers any difference in tuition. 2. To be honest I want to polish my German to beyond C1, possibly spend time in France as well to get to B2 at least, I just don't see those opportunities at a NA grad program.  
How can I phrase this? if 10 years from now I'm back to the private sector, I'd much rather remember "living in Europe and studying history" than "studying history". 

Oh and, I guess I really forgot some important details! I'd be shooting for a DAAD scholarship if I did this. I got a small DAAD scholarship already so I have a foot in the door with them. This would make the financial difference even more stark. 

Researching programs in NA also seems daunting to be honest. Is there a website that aggregates them as efficiently as, say, the websites for German and Dutch programs run by those countries? 

[Sigaba]

7 minutes ago, duesseldreamer said:

 I minored in medieval studies and did several history-oriented German courses, including an independent research project that appears on my transcript that was essentially a literature review of German sources on post WW2 population movements in Central/Eastern Europe. Let's just start there: A medieval studies minor and WW2 history! I'm freaking all over the place. To be totally honest this is how I see my issue: I have done good UG work that anyone would call history, but it's all over the place, and aside from the broad German/European-ness of the topics they are not particularly related to my interests in European/global encounters in the early modern era. 
 

I have a LoR for sure from a German professor at my university. I could use my independent research project^^ as a writing sample, but would it make more sense to just... write a paper on a topic more germane to my interests? 

The professor loved me[...]
 

Your undergraduate work helped you to define your interest around Central/Eastern Europe, you're gravitating towards the early modern era. You want to pursue a master's degree so you can refine your interests further, deepen your knowledge, and develop your skills as an academically trained historian.

The writing sample may not be the most important piece of an application, however working on yours may help with the SOP.

Not to take away from your experience, but ...

There's a difference between a professor loving a student and seeing a student's potential and taking reasonable steps to nurture that student's intellectual growth. Also, a professor can, IME, lavish students with praise and affection as a tactic to motivate other students to work harder. And/or a professor may just find the usual group of students increasingly...boring. (This is to say that IMO the professor who loved you could and should have done more to figure out ways to cultivate and to support your intellectual interests through mandatory office hours and a clear statement of what kind of work is needed for a LoR down the line, regardless if a LoR will be needed.)

[duesseldreamer]

Just now, Sigaba said:

Your undergraduate work helped you to define your interest around Central/Eastern Europe, you're gravitating towards the early modern era. You want to pursue a master's degree so you can refine your interests further, deepen your knowledge, and develop your skills as an academically trained historian.

The writing sample may not be the most important piece of an application, however working on yours may help with the SOP.

Not to take away from your experience, but ...

There's a difference between a professor loving a student and seeing a student's potential and taking reasonable steps to nurture that student's intellectual growth. Also, a professor can, IME, lavish students with praise and affection as a tactic to motivate other students to work harder. And/or a professor may just find the usual group of students increasingly...boring. (This is to say that IMO the professor who loved you could and should have done more to figure out ways to cultivate and to support your intellectual interests through mandatory office hours and a clear statement of what kind of work is needed for a LoR down the line, regardless if a LoR will be needed.)

Let me be clear, I appreciate the tough love about the professor and totally respect the viewpoint, but I don't think it applies. I was on a fulbright english teaching grant at two highschools and auditing the courses for no credit. the professor consistently made entreaties and suggestions for me to get more involved. I DID begin writing a paper, and he literally said I could choose the deadline, he really wanted to see something from me, but personal stuff intervened (a stolen passport led to a lost month). I hope that doesn't sound cringey, just the professor explicitly said things like "I'd love for you to do something here, are you thinking about studying here next year" etc. By the standards of a student he owed nothing to, literally nothing, I believe he went beyond the baseline of your parenthetical statement. In other words it's completely my fault he probably couldnt do an LoR. He DID open the door, I didn't walk in. 

I will say though, he definitely egged me on in his classes for the sake of the actual grad students, thank you for that perspective, LOL. But I can't deny it doesn't make me feel I have potential if I (seemingly) frequently impressed him over students coming from a prestigious abitur, multiple language competencies, and a track BA program.

[duesseldreamer]

3 hours ago, Tigla said:

Having studied in Germany, I can tell you that your GPA is the most important thing in an application to an MA program. They have odd requirements to apply, such as 'x amount of credits in history,' but those can be waived. The other major hurdle will be language proficiency, as you said. Most German programs require at least C1 level German while other "international programs" require B1 German plus B1 in another foreign language that is not your native language.

My first step would be to research programs and try to find some that you are interested in. From there, we can begin thinking through how you fit into the program and whether you are eligible to apply. You will find that there are some general rules across universities, but there is a ton of diversity and flexibility if you know how to ask a question. European bureaucracy is a thing, but it isn't as rigid as many people make it seem.

With that said, what programs have you looked into? Which ones do you like? Why?

Thank you so much for this concrete info. I can try to fill in these blanks and would love if you could comment. 

Language: I tested C1 (reading/listening) B2 (speaking/writing) on the TestDAF in 2017. I then worked 6 months in a job where I had to speak German on the phone. I am confident I could clinch the 4x C1 needed, especially if I made some extra effort. 

GPA: My unique dual degree pooled the GPA on everything from finance courses to film studies. Both BA and BS show a 3.51 GPA. But my liberal arts coursework above the 300 level is literally a 4.0, maybe one A- I'm forgetting about, so 3.9+ for sure. I have around 20 credits of 300+ level cultural/history stuff with a GPA of 4.0. Am I "allowed" to point this out to them? That my subject GPA is significantly higher? Oh and if they care, my MS GPA is 3.89.

Credits: This is exactly my issue. I see all sorts of things, often 60 ECTS of history credits. On a generous US-ECTS conversion I get near that? I guess? The page for the FUB/Humboldt program gets worse with something like "1/3 of credits must be in history" and like literally half my transcript is not liberal arts at all but business. 

Programs: To be totally honest I look at programs in a fairly vulgar way, I'd prefer to be in one of the bigger cities, so any big city uni with a high ranking interests me. Obviously if I see the department is not the global orientation i'm looking for i'd look elsewhere. I need to figure out if I CAN get into these programs I guess before really honing in. But a program such as FUB/Humboldts, or one at University of Konstanz ("Global European Studies" or something?), where both feature an obligatory semester in another country. That's my dream program. Something where i'm picking up language and international experience automatically as part of the program. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by duesseldreamer

[Sigaba]

29 minutes ago, duesseldreamer said:

Let me be clear, I appreciate the tough love about the professor and totally respect the viewpoint, but I don't think it applies. I was on a fulbright english teaching grant at two highschools and auditing the courses for no credit. the professor consistently made entreaties and suggestions for me to get more involved. I DID begin writing a paper, and he literally said I could choose the deadline, he really wanted to see something from me, but personal stuff intervened (a stolen passport led to a lost month). I hope that doesn't sound cringey, just the professor explicitly said things like "I'd love for you to do something here, are you thinking about studying here next year" etc. By the standards of a student he owed nothing to, literally nothing, I believe he went beyond the baseline of your parenthetical statement. In other words it's completely my fault he probably couldnt do an LoR. He DID open the door, I didn't walk in. 

I will say though, he definitely egged me on in his classes for the sake of the actual grad students, thank you for that perspective, LOL. But I can't deny it doesn't make me feel I have potential if I (seemingly) frequently impressed him over students coming from a prestigious abitur, multiple language competencies, and a track BA program.

Thank you for the additional information. 

[Tigla]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:12 PM, duesseldreamer said:

Thank you so much for this concrete info. I can try to fill in these blanks and would love if you could comment. 

Language: I tested C1 (reading/listening) B2 (speaking/writing) on the TestDAF in 2017. I then worked 6 months in a job where I had to speak German on the phone. I am confident I could clinch the 4x C1 needed, especially if I made some extra effort. 

GPA: My unique dual degree pooled the GPA on everything from finance courses to film studies. Both BA and BS show a 3.51 GPA. But my liberal arts coursework above the 300 level is literally a 4.0, maybe one A- I'm forgetting about, so 3.9+ for sure. I have around 20 credits of 300+ level cultural/history stuff with a GPA of 4.0. Am I "allowed" to point this out to them? That my subject GPA is significantly higher? Oh and if they care, my MS GPA is 3.89.

Credits: This is exactly my issue. I see all sorts of things, often 60 ECTS of history credits. On a generous US-ECTS conversion I get near that? I guess? The page for the FUB/Humboldt program gets worse with something like "1/3 of credits must be in history" and like literally half my transcript is not liberal arts at all but business. 

Programs: To be totally honest I look at programs in a fairly vulgar way, I'd prefer to be in one of the bigger cities, so any big city uni with a high ranking interests me. Obviously if I see the department is not the global orientation i'm looking for i'd look elsewhere. I need to figure out if I CAN get into these programs I guess before really honing in. But a program such as FUB/Humboldts, or one at University of Konstanz ("Global European Studies" or something?), where both feature an obligatory semester in another country. That's my dream program. Something where i'm picking up language and international experience automatically as part of the program. 

 

 

Thanks for this info. I noticed above that you will be applying for a DAAD scholarship. I suggest that you read into that before applying or reaching out to programs. I missed out on a DAAD scholarship due to a bureaucratic hurdle where I had to apply to the DAAD and then my program, not my program and then DAAD.

With that said, I would now reach out to every program you mentioned. Don't give them a huge explanation of your situation, rather focus on the "1/3 credits must be in history" requirements. I'd start by being upfront and saying that you don't meet this requirement according to your transcript, but that your coursework required you to know the history of the subjects. Whether the program is flexible on this requirement is incredibly difficult to know and unless you ask. However, a Global European Studies program or something studies related will be even more flexible than a traditional history program. In short, start asking around and figure out which programs and universities are flexible on the ECTS requirement and which ones see it as a hard-cap.

Lastly, your GPA is your GPA. You will not be able to explain dips or highlight great classes. I hate the rigidity of such a requirement, but I also weirdly love it. I couldn't get into many American programs for a multitude of reasons, but a 3.94 GPA got me into all my European programs without a hitch. I know a handful of people who came in around the 3.5 mark, but most had around a 3.7 in undergrad. Your application will be very different with an MS so I'm not sure your BA will be as important.