U of Toronto vs. US programs: International Job Prospects

[choices_await]

I'm wondering if U of Toronto and Oxford/Cambridge have better international (non-US) teaching prospects than US programs like Chicago. I know a lot of advice goes against Oxbridge if you are aiming for a TT in the US, but when considering positions in other parts of the world – Europe/Asia/Middle East – would a non-US program have a slight edge? And what about UK vs. Canada? (Assuming Canadian degree might have the most flexibility?)

Also, if fully funded in UK, with some TAing background (during MA), would an Oxbridge degree really be considered worse than a well-ranked US degree? 

I get that the job market is pretty insane regardless of where you go, but curious about prospects for international positions. 

[bigsh]

I'm interested to see where this goes. I have an offer at TST and I'm waiting to hear on one last US school. But I never found much in my field in the UK schools, though I did do an application of KU Leuven's Research Master program as a possible avenue for a continental PhD. My seminary has some folks with degrees from TST, and I've known others who came from Toronto who've taught in the US. I've seen some stats about TST having been relatively high in terms of placing faculty in ATS schools though I'm not sure how up to date that was.

[kor_to_nola]

TST Grads seem like they have a better chance at American institutions. But they are not much known in Asia. I can’t speak for Europe, but I would guess that Oxbridge grads are better represented in Europe. 
 

For international schools, you have to take note on what denomination or tradition those schools come from. At least to my judgement, most schools in Asia and Africa are confessional institutions. Religious studies is big in America and maybe Europe, but certainly not in other parts of the world. As Chicago, along with other Top-Tier institutions, they are well-known institutions, with a great track record for being Professors in Religious Studies, and that is definitely true for international schools also. However, if you don’t come from a similar tradition or denomination, certain international schools will not take you.

A lot of international schools in Christian tradition usually take their own graduates with PhDs from well respected US, UK, or German institutions.

What is your reason of interests for UK schools? Shorter time? Prestige and great history? Higher acceptance rate? If you aim for American positions, I don’t think spending longer time in a doctoral program isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Well funded PhD programs are safe places to grow your prospect, skills, knowledge, and connections while you are young.

[choices_await]

4 hours ago, kor_to_nola said:

What is your reason of interests for UK schools? Shorter time? Prestige and great history? Higher acceptance rate? If you aim for American positions, I don’t think spending longer time in a doctoral program isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Well funded PhD programs are safe places to grow your prospect, skills, knowledge, and connections while you are young.

I'm actually asking on behalf of my partner – they're already accepted at some US schools, Toronto, and it's looking like UK, although haven't heard on funding. So acceptance rate isn't a factor, but yes, shorter time, prestige, history, and potentially a better position to make international connections. I agree that well funded Phd programs are good places and nurturing, so trying to weigh that against just going forward with research and getting out into the world. (also we wouldn't do UK w/o funding).

We would like to live internationally (I work remotely), and my partner is very interested in being part of interfaith dialogues and communities, so we are trying to figure that out. Lots of open-endedness, but would also really love to have reasonable options in the States for later in career or fallback. 
 

 

[choices_await]

10 hours ago, bigsh said:

I'm interested to see where this goes. I have an offer at TST and I'm waiting to hear on one last US school. But I never found much in my field in the UK schools, though I did do an application of KU Leuven's Research Master program as a possible avenue for a continental PhD. My seminary has some folks with degrees from TST, and I've known others who came from Toronto who've taught in the US. I've seen some stats about TST having been relatively high in terms of placing faculty in ATS schools though I'm not sure how up to date that was.

Oh nice! Toronto sounds like an awesome city. Yeah I wish there was more (clear) info out there on what recent grads are up to. Stats aren't really a full picture (at least the ones I've heard).

[kor_to_nola]

25 minutes ago, choices_await said:

I'm actually asking on behalf of my partner – they're already accepted at some US schools, Toronto, and it's looking like UK, although haven't heard on funding. So acceptance rate isn't a factor, but yes, shorter time, prestige, history, and potentially a better position to make international connections. I agree that well funded Phd programs are good places and nurturing, so trying to weigh that against just going forward with research and getting out into the world. (also we wouldn't do UK w/o funding).

We would like to live internationally (I work remotely), and my partner is very interested in being part of interfaith dialogues and communities, so we are trying to figure that out. Lots of open-endedness, but would also really love to have reasonable options in the States for later in career or fallback. 
 

 

I understand what you are saying. 

I am glad to see two Americans showing interests to live internationally. Do you guys have experience living internationally? When you do have the opportunity, I would recommend you to give it a try for a short period of time like one or two years. Making a long-term move is definitely a big step. Also consider what type of language your target country might speak. 

As an international myself, I just wanted to clearly tell you what religious education looks like in the rest of the world. The rest of world, at least Asia, leans toward theological education over religious studies. Korea is one of the most advanced nations in Asia with religious education, and only handful of schools have well respected religious studies program. Other institutions with certain level of scholarship are confessional institutions looking for theological education. 

I'm not sure what exactly you expect with interfaith dialogues, do you mind sharing some details? Do you mean interfaith dialogues between different religions, like Christianity and Buddhism? Or different traditions and denominations within similar religions, like a dialogue between Catholics and Protestants in Christianity? If you mean the former, then I would advise your partner to be extremely cautious. Not a lot of countries are used to hearing interfaith dialogues, as to the point of having civil war in certain countries. 

Again, I'm glad to see you guys showing interests, but international space is not the most safe place to do interfaith dialogues. If your partner already has the experience, then I may be speaking non-sense to an expert, but I just wanted to chime in and give my piece of advice.

[choices_await]

5 minutes ago, kor_to_nola said:

I am glad to see two Americans showing interests to live internationally. Do you guys have experience living internationally? When you do have the opportunity, I would recommend you to give it a try for a short period of time like one or two years. 

Thanks! We have lived internationally together, and I didn't grow up in the US at all (TCK – third culture kid), and I'm tired of living in the USA, ha. Yeah, it's definitely a complicated interest – since I'm speaking on my partner's behalf and perhaps it would be identifying information, I don't want to go too far into their interests (sorry, but can pm!). 

[kor_to_nola]

5 minutes ago, choices_await said:

Thanks! We have lived internationally together, and I didn't grow up in the US at all (TCK – third culture kid), and I'm tired of living in the USA, ha. Yeah, it's definitely a complicated interest – since I'm speaking on my partner's behalf and perhaps it would be identifying information, I don't want to go too far into their interests (sorry, but can pm!). 

Well in that case, I would guess that your own experience will greatly serve for your partner! If you do have any specific questions about East Asian countries, then PM me. 

[choices_await]

36 minutes ago, kor_to_nola said:

Well in that case, I would guess that your own experience will greatly serve for your partner! If you do have any specific questions about East Asian countries, then PM me. 

Thank you so much I will definitely take you up on that if/when it makes sense.

[bigsh]

I appreciate this entire conversation. To be fair, Canada isn't super international for me, and being married to a Canadian (who has never been to Toronto) might help with the funding situation at TST. But, that's not to say that an international move from the states wouldn't be adventurous with small kids (getting to church on Sunday can be adventurous). Part of looking internationally, at least for me, is tied to trying find the right places to do the work I'd like to do and looking for potential advisers by field, not just geography (and there really aren't a ton of options in my area). We're still not sure where we're headed in the fall, and if a funded offer shows up from the states that adds some significant calculus, but we do see significant value in having other cultural experiences as a family. That Belgium admission came in today, and there have certainly been mentions of beer, cheese, and chocolate.

[choices_await]

Congrats on Leuven! Yes, Canadian funding is so much lower than US (although supposedly there are additional scholarships to apply for??), and Toronto isn't cheap. sigh.

[sacklunch]

Toronto has an excellent reputation in US academic circles. This is largely because its doctoral programs are much the same as here in the States. That said, Toronto doesn't have the weight of the elite American schools in this country (I can't speak to Canada or elsewhere). Toronto will certainly have a better reputation in the US than Oxbridge, regardless of TAing. It's important to mention that TAing doesn't matter much, if at all. The most successful applicants have good teaching experience, that is, teaching their own classes. If you get a doctorate from Oxbridge (et sim.) and you're an American citizen and you're applying for American jobs, I would say you have basically zero chance of getting a tenure-track job, outside of some conservative and small Christian schools. The competition is simply too fierce. There are hundreds of doctorates from American R1 schools applying to the same jobs. Why would they take someone with a doctorate half the duration (or less) and someone who has never taught their own class?

[choices_await]

13 hours ago, sacklunch said:

Toronto has an excellent reputation in US academic circles. This is largely because its doctoral programs are much the same as here in the States. That said, Toronto doesn't have the weight of the elite American schools in this country (I can't speak to Canada or elsewhere). Toronto will certainly have a better reputation in the US than Oxbridge, regardless of TAing. It's important to mention that TAing doesn't matter much, if at all. The most successful applicants have good teaching experience, that is, teaching their own classes. If you get a doctorate from Oxbridge (et sim.) and you're an American citizen and you're applying for American jobs, I would say you have basically zero chance of getting a tenure-track job, outside of some conservative and small Christian schools. The competition is simply too fierce. There are hundreds of doctorates from American R1 schools applying to the same jobs. Why would they take someone with a doctorate half the duration (or less) and someone who has never taught their own class?

 

Thanks for this. Some good food for thought – I'm think that for my partner's specific subfield, the advisor is just as important as the rep of the school. Or rather, there are some big hitters at non-ivies (but still well regarded schools, eg Chicago) who would be pretty significant to work with. 

But yes, not sure if tenure track will be viable regardless, based on competition and the types of communities/jobs my partner is interested in.

 

 

[bigsh]

16 hours ago, choices_await said:

Congrats on Leuven! Yes, Canadian funding is so much lower than US (although supposedly there are additional scholarships to apply for??), and Toronto isn't cheap. sigh.

The main requirement for most of the scholarships I've seen listed up there is either Canadian citizenship or permanent residency. And, if you are a citizen or permanent resident, your tuition is a) about 75% less than international tuition, and b) covered in full. If I go to Toronto I'm distinctly hoping that being married to a Canadian speeds up the residency process.

 

Leuven, OTOH, is something like 1500 euros a year, or per semester, which either way is incredibly affordable. 

 

Regarding something else you said, I think there is certainly something to be said for working with the right adviser. In some areas they are going to be opening doors for you over the entire course of your degree. 

[choices_await]

3 hours ago, bigsh said:

The main requirement for most of the scholarships I've seen listed up there is either Canadian citizenship or permanent residency. And, if you are a citizen or permanent resident, your tuition is a) about 75% less than international tuition, and b) covered in full. If I go to Toronto I'm distinctly hoping that being married to a Canadian speeds up the residency process.

 

Ah so we aren't looking at TST but U of T. The base offer for phds at U of T is full tuition plus 19k CAD I believe... it's just not anywhere near the US offers we're looking at (esp. because of COL and CAD). 

Hope the residency process is smooth for you if that's where you go! 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by choices_await

[bigsh]

15 minutes ago, choices_await said:

 

Ah so we aren't looking at TST but U of T. The base offer for phds at U of T is full tuition plus 19k CAD I believe... it's just not anywhere near the US offers we're looking at (esp. because of COL and CAD). 

Hope the residency process is smooth for you if that's where you go! 

 

That's better than the TST side of things. They fund Canadian tuition, but only fund the Canadian portion of the international tuition.

But if all you'd have coming in is 19k CAD that would be pretty thin in Toronto. 

[sacklunch]

9 hours ago, choices_await said:

 

Thanks for this. Some good food for thought – I'm think that for my partner's specific subfield, the advisor is just as important as the rep of the school. Or rather, there are some big hitters at non-ivies (but still well regarded schools, eg Chicago) who would be pretty significant to work with. 

But yes, not sure if tenure track will be viable regardless, based on competition and the types of communities/jobs my partner is interested in.

 

 

Yes and no. Frankly, the reputation of one's adviser has little bearing on one's success securing a tenure-track job. Most scholars don't know (top) scholars outside of their (sub)field and most schools only have specialists in one subfield. So there are few times when an adviser's reputation will matter (e.g. when you apply to a top program, at which point you are applying against hundreds of others). In my opinion, it's far more important that you find an adviser who supports you, respects you, etc. (one would think these would be givens, but, unfortunately they're not). 

[Averroes MD]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:04 PM, sacklunch said:

Yes and no. Frankly, the reputation of one's adviser has little bearing on one's success securing a tenure-track job. Most scholars don't know (top) scholars outside of their (sub)field and most schools only have specialists in one subfield. So there are few times when an adviser's reputation will matter (e.g. when you apply to a top program, at which point you are applying against hundreds of others). In my opinion, it's far more important that you find an adviser who supports you, respects you, etc. (one would think these would be givens, but, unfortunately they're not). 

This is very important advice and goes against the common but outdated line.