Can an AW score kill a strong application?

[natsteel]

Here's my conundrum... I scored passably with a 660v 560q but only a 4aw. I am actually a very strong writer with an honors thesis as my writing sample. I also have 3 letters from highly respected professors in my field. I am applying to 4 or 5 top 15 programs in early American history (and 3-4 lesser ranked programs) but now I am worried that my 4 on the writing may get my app junked before it's even seen by an adcom expecting 300 or more apps for my department alone. Do you think it is imperative that I take the test again to improve the AW score, if not also the V score?

Edited September 10, 2010 by natsteel

[newms]

In my opinion the AW score shouldn't kill your chances but I've seen some schools in my field (Computer Science) that have a cut off for AW, but I'm not sure for your field. In my opinion your writing sample and SOP should count for a lot more, but unfortunately I don't sit on any admissions committee If you don't feel comfortable with those scores, especially applying to top 15 schools, perhaps its worth doing over, if only to settle your nerves. You could also contact the schools you are applying to in order to find out if they have a cutoff.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the cutoffs I've seen are lower than your scores, so you would absolutely pass the minimum requirements that I've seen in my field and I suspect in your field. The question you need to ask yourself is if your application overall is strong enough to get into the schools you want to go to.

Edited September 11, 2010 by newms

[DrFaustus666]

I don't sit on any admissions committees either, but, as newms says, your application is a package.

If your honors thesis is truly superb and also your recommendations and GPA (3.85 or over), then you're probably OK, from what I've read here and elsewhere -- though admission to Yale and its ilk is practically never guaranteed, even to the top 99.5th percentile.

If any of your application is weak in any way (GPA under 3.6, or any course that is even vaguely related to your major with less than A-), then it probably wouldn't hurt to beef up the AW, and even more so, the Verbal. V-660 is about 93rd to 95th percentile I think, which means that something like 15,000 people or more around the world scored higher than you in Verbal.

The AW is less of a problem. There have been numerous posts in here from working journalists and people who already have MA's in English from very prestigious institutions, who score only 4.5 AW or so, just because they don't understand ETS's silly grading rubric, NOT because they are poor writers or lack analytic insight. I do think most admissions committees understand that aspect of the GRE.

So, ..., it's kind of an open question ...

Sorry I didn't really add anything to what newms said, but ... well uh you know

Good luck,

John

[newms]

Sorry I didn't really add anything to what newms said, but ... well uh you know

Ah, but you said it a lot better than I did! Basically natsteel, your scores won't keep you out, but will they get you in? Honestly, if I were in your situation and I knew I could get better scores (and as DrFaustus666 said, the verbal should probably concern you more) I would do the test over. I don't want to ask myself "what if?" next February/March when admissions decisions are sent out.

[milestones13]

4 AWA is too low, imo, to sit on if you are applying to humanities programs. You want to get that up to at least 4.5, preferably 5. The AWA is an absolute joke, as others have mentioned, because the graders spend so little time on the essay and pretty much rely on Big Blue's algorithmically challenged cousin to do the grading for them. But the problem is you can't assume that adcoms are aware that the AWA is a joke. In fact, they may be under the impression that the people at ETS grade the essays with a critical perspective. To get a good score requires following a template. I think the Princeton Review is the best for this (though I am not an advocate of them generally). "The issue is a divisive one...on the one hand....yet, on the other....in the final analysis, it appears that." (Stated with your own transitions), I think what they want is wishy-washy yet clear exposition. Use the million dollar words sparingly. The best that anyone can hope for by following along a rigid structure is a 5, because the idea that your essays are insightful or are in some way is interesting to the reader is a subjective matter outside your control (that which garners a 5.5. or a 6). If you hit the structure, you can get at least get a 5. I believe (counterintuitively) that if Danielle Steele took the GRE, she would score a 5.5 or 6. I say this because she thinks formula and works with flashing red light transitional cliches that ETS loves. I am actually not joking.

A vexing question: Why do poorly written novels sell so well and well written novels tend to fare so badly on the market place? I have often asked myself and I think the reason is that hacks are mainly concerned about structure and not prose. So when you consider the AWA, it's best to think like a hack. Structure first, structure second, decent levels of clarity, third. It's a sucker bet to think you're being graded by "professors" who care about your writing.

To some degree they care about the content of what you write, but only if you put the dog sh*& in the cookie cutter for them to scoop out. Bear in mind, it's very hard to write well when you have such shackles around you. This is why good writing does not come out of the formula novels, even when Pulizer prize winners take on a psuedonym to make a buck. There's Elmore Leonard, but he's a dialogue maestro with very, very unique talent and he plays with formula in ways that very few writers know how to do (only a handful of good writers can pull this off).

If you are afraid of being corrupted by delivering boilerplate essays, don't be. It is (and I know many will disagree with this) something of a good thing temporarily to get off one's praised as God to the writing world ego which a fair number of us have been puffed up by. Remember: You're on Grub street when you write the AWA and so it is best to heed the words of Samuel Johnson to this end. "wherever you meet with a passage that strikes you as particularly fine, strike it out."

However, I would not at all advise this for your writing sample which will require your best writing (as long as you don't, as they say, gild the lily).

[DrFaustus666]

Hi Milestones,

I advised the OP that the AW score didn't matter that much.

My advice was under the assumption that the OP's other writing samples are superb --- and also, that he/she is NOT applying to a humanities program.

You are absolutely on target, one must play the ETS rubric game at top humanities programs.

Original Poster (Natsteel): ETS offers a service by which you can write an essay and have it graded immediately, online, by their supercomputer grading system. That's for a mere $12.00. HOWEVER: Don't rely on it too much. I used it last February, a few days before taking the REAL GRE. My $12-try-it score was 6.0, then less than a week later, when taking the real thing, I only got 4.5. I have no idea where I went wrong. (Five years ago, before starting the program I'm currently in, I received a 5.5 on the real thing BTW.)

Good luck to all,

John

[natsteel]

Thanks for the responses, guys. My GPA is 3.92 (4.0/maj), my honors thesis won an award and is very strong and my letters are as strong as can be expected from 2 people extremely really well-known in my field. However, I think you are right that I can't let that 4.0 AWA stand. I never imagined that I could get less than a 5 and still don't understand why. I always expected the GRE to be the weakest point of my app only because I am not a good "test-taker" and when it comes to writing, I'm the kind of writer that develops his thoughts through the process of writing which you obviously don't have time to do in a short-timed essay. I'm just going to have to take it again. I really appreciate all the responses. Thanks alot.

Edited September 14, 2010 by natsteel

[myln]

So I already posted this in a different thread, but it's an older thread, and I don't know if anyone's checking it. In any case, it's an interesting point that people don't seem to know about and is relevant to natstel's question: I had a somewhat similar GRE situation. I got a 710v, a 680q, and - a 4.5 AW. I was kinda freaking out about the AW but didn't do anything till it was too late to have it regraded. Now, four years later, I'm applying to grad programs, so I called the GRE, and they told me something very interesting: you can retake only the writing section of the GRE, skipping (or quitting) the other two sections, which will give you a "No Score" in them. They claim this is not the same thing as failing or whatever the equivalent is. So the question is: should I do this? I"m applying to very competitive phd programs in sociology, and I'm satisfied with the verbal/quant scores for them because I think the rest of my application will boost my viability as a candidate. But the AW is kind of a bummer because I really thought I would ace it. Writing is one of my strongest areas.

After I had a phone conversation with two different GRE reps, I confirmed this again with them via email. Here's what they wrote:

Regarding your inquiry:

Candidates who take the computer-based GRE® General Test may exit out of individual sections of the test or quit the test during the testing session. However, please understand the implications of exiting a section or quitting the test. Once you exit a section, you cannot return to that section. If you quit the test, you will not receive a score for any section, even for those sections you have already completed.

If you click on "Section Exit" or "Test Quit" by mistake, you will be given the opportunity to reverse or confirm your decision.

If you answer no questions at all in a section (Verbal, Quantitative, or Analytical Writing), that section will be reported as a No Score (NS).

[end quote]

Thoughts, everyone? Should I do this?

p.s. If I broke an unwritten forum rule re posting the same thing in two different threads, sorry!

[barilicious]

So I already posted this in a different thread, but it's an older thread, and I don't know if anyone's checking it. In any case, it's an interesting point that people don't seem to know about and is relevant to natstel's question: I had a somewhat similar GRE situation. I got a 710v, a 680q, and - a 4.5 AW. I was kinda freaking out about the AW but didn't do anything till it was too late to have it regraded. Now, four years later, I'm applying to grad programs, so I called the GRE, and they told me something very interesting: you can retake only the writing section of the GRE, skipping (or quitting) the other two sections, which will give you a "No Score" in them. They claim this is not the same thing as failing or whatever the equivalent is. So the question is: should I do this? I"m applying to very competitive phd programs in sociology, and I'm satisfied with the verbal/quant scores for them because I think the rest of my application will boost my viability as a candidate. But the AW is kind of a bummer because I really thought I would ace it. Writing is one of my strongest areas.

After I had a phone conversation with two different GRE reps, I confirmed this again with them via email. Here's what they wrote:

Regarding your inquiry:

Candidates who take the computer-based GRE® General Test may exit out of individual sections of the test or quit the test during the testing session. However, please understand the implications of exiting a section or quitting the test. Once you exit a section, you cannot return to that section. If you quit the test, you will not receive a score for any section, even for those sections you have already completed.

If you click on "Section Exit" or "Test Quit" by mistake, you will be given the opportunity to reverse or confirm your decision.

If you answer no questions at all in a section (Verbal, Quantitative, or Analytical Writing), that section will be reported as a No Score (NS).

[end quote]

Thoughts, everyone? Should I do this?

p.s. If I broke an unwritten forum rule re posting the same thing in two different threads, sorry!

From my understanding, only taking one section of the test and exiting the other 2 is rather frowned upon. Part of taking a "comprehensive" standardized test is how can you manage each part in the allotted time, and all of those parts together as a whole time. Someone who is taking the AW and knowing afterwards they still have the verbal and quant sections to push through will be dealing with stress differently than someone who is just taking the AW then exiting the other 2 sections. Their two scores can quite possibly not be fair to compare. It makes sense to me, but your best bet would be to ask each school in which you are interested in applying to about their procedure when assessing your GRE scores and if you can do this. Since you know ETS allows it, you need to find out if the schools that interest you allow it. All of the best!

Edited September 16, 2010 by barilcious

[augustquail]

Hi Milestones,

I advised the OP that the AW score didn't matter that much.

My advice was under the assumption that the OP's other writing samples are superb --- and also, that he/she is NOT applying to a humanities program.

You are absolutely on target, one must play the ETS rubric game at top humanities programs.

Original Poster (Natsteel): ETS offers a service by which you can write an essay and have it graded immediately, online, by their supercomputer grading system. That's for a mere $12.00. HOWEVER: Don't rely on it too much. I used it last February, a few days before taking the REAL GRE. My $12-try-it score was 6.0, then less than a week later, when taking the real thing, I only got 4.5. I have no idea where I went wrong. (Five years ago, before starting the program I'm currently in, I received a 5.5 on the real thing BTW.)

Good luck to all,

John

I just got two essays graded through the princeton review livegrader ($6). I got a five on the issue essay, which I did write creatively and not at all in their cookie-cutter shape. The comments I got were "well written, good examples, nice structure," and to improve my score they said to "proof read," - I had 2 typos, and to "make my key ideas stand out more clearly" (which i think means putting different "topic sentences" in front of my content paragraphs.) Do you think the princeton livegrader is comparable to the ETS service? Also--how long did it take you to get your essays graded? (i take the test on thursday, so i wouldn't want my $ to be wasted).

Edited September 20, 2010 by augustquail

[augustquail]

Honestly, the most difficult thing for me on the AWA is the blandness of the "Argument" prompt. The issue one can usually be manipulated into being interesting, the the prompts for the AWA are the driest things in the world in my opinion. I don't know about the rest of you, but both practice tests I took had prompts that were about marketing/business decisions. "Should Sun-Beem facial cleanser launch a new campaign to combat a negative reputation?" I mean, who gives a shit? What kind of argument is that?

[DrFaustus666]

I'm not familiar with Princeton Review's essay grader.

I do know that their regular Verbal and Quantitative tests are designed to score you LOWER than you would on the real test . . . the motive being for you to buy their books and sign up for their test prep classes.

As to the two essay questions, both of mine were dull as can be; and I know I rambled, especially on the Issue essay, so I expect about a 4.5 and will be ecstatic with a 5 or 5.5.

(edit)

Oh gosh, I forgot, you asked how long it takes them to grade the essays.

The answer: it's directly proportional to how badly you need a good score. Seriously, 3 to 4 weeks.

(end edit)

John

Edited September 20, 2010 by DrFaustus666