Literacy and Grad Students

[pointedears]

Boy, the humanities stream MUST be overcrowded with loads of competition! Guys, if I were you, I would go on a holiday before I join grad school. You know, just to cool down a bit.

Anyways, since everyone is so eager on a debate. Here goes -

I think it s a bit superficial to assume that someone who is using netspeak on (gasp, I know) the net is not serious enough about academics. One, using textspeak has got nothing to do with literacy. The basic use of chatspeak/textspeak is to shorten words to make typing/texting faster. And I don't think any online forum is as serious as a report or even an email to your mentor that you absolutely have to write with proper grammar and spelling rules. What is the point of this forum? Applicants communicating with each other. I can understand people getting weirded out at "i lYk 2 pLay GhUrl" but a simple 'u' is not that difficult to understand. As long as you get the meaning, how does it matter? Read it, wince if you don't like it, move on. See? Everyone's happy.

The main point being, grad school doesn't suddenly make you SPESHUL. To say, grad school students are highly intelligent and should not behave like the rest of the civilization appears to me as being stuck up. Wake up, there is nothing special about you only because you are a (wannabe) grad student. Likewise, it should not dictate how you behave in day to day life(refer to stories of parents saying how their children have started talking different). Snobbery doesn't necessarily have to go with grad school. If the way someone writes(when their field is far removed from English and they are writing this on an unofficial platform) makes you form quick opinions about them, get real and lose the silicon. People are much more than this. An intellectual person is much more than this.

In my field, no one would be judged based on what they wear and how they behave, all that matters is their work. Maybe in your field they will be. I just want to say, all the best. You're stepping into a fake world my friend. I hope you cope with it fine.

[excel]

@bgk

Minnesotan started with an insult that would have sidetracked an important discussion without your intervention, and then again was condescending in his initial post of the thread. He then delivered a series of snide remarks. How can a thread thus started ever be free of acrimony? I seriously think that this thread should be locked.

All I wanted to do in this forum was to discuss serious matters pertaining to the important issue of choosing a grad school offer. Unfortunately, I have been dragged into this relatively trivial argument and constantly provoked. To my discredit, I could not stop getting dragged in here.

Anyway, I am deeply disappointed with this experience in this forum.

[excel]

Boy, the humanities stream MUST be overcrowded with loads of competition! Guys, if I were you, I would go on a holiday before I join grad school. You know, just to cool down a bit.

Anyways, since everyone is so eager on a debate. Here goes -

I think it s a bit superficial to assume that someone who is using netspeak on (gasp, I know) the net is not serious enough about academics. One, using textspeak has got nothing to do with literacy. The basic use of chatspeak/textspeak is to shorten words to make typing/texting faster. And I don't think any online forum is as serious as a report or even an email to your mentor that you absolutely have to write with proper grammar and spelling rules. What is the point of this forum? Applicants communicating with each other. I can understand people getting weirded out at "i lYk 2 pLay GhUrl" but a simple 'u' is not that difficult to understand. As long as you get the meaning, how does it matter? Read it, wince if you don't like it, move on. See? Everyone's happy.

The main point being, grad school doesn't suddenly make you SPESHUL. To say, grad school students are highly intelligent and should not behave like the rest of the civilization appears to me as being stuck up. Wake up, there is nothing special about you only because you are a (wannabe) grad student. Likewise, it should not dictate how you behave in day to day life(refer to stories of parents saying how their children have started talking different). Snobbery doesn't necessarily have to go with grad school. If the way someone writes(when their field is far removed from English and they are writing this on an unofficial platform) makes you form quick opinions about them, get real and lose the silicon. People are much more than this. An intellectual person is much more than this.

In my field, no one would be judged based on what they wear and how they behave, all that matters is their work. Maybe in your field they will be. I just want to say, all the best. You're stepping into a fake world my friend. I hope you cope with it fine.

pointed, thanks for making the point so well.

[Minnesotan]

@bgk

Minnesotan started with an insult that would have sidetracked an important discussion without your intervention, and then again was condescending in his initial post of the thread.

Mommy, Billy's foot is on my side of the car!

Seriously, kid! If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then don't. However, seeing as the majority of the posts on this thread are by you, I find that claim highly suspicious. I know you're probably just some teenager without anything better to do on spring break, but at least be woman enough to admit you want to argue.

If you can't get over the fact that I asked a question you didn't like, then you are free to argue the point with me, or ignore me. What you can't do is argue with me and claim you don't want to argue, because that's as ridiculous as the rest of your claims on this thread.

[sashababie]

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but excel stopped using textspeak after the initial post. At least she's demonstrated there's no problem with her grammar and spelling, but how nice it would have been if she refrained from using textspeak at all, and how nice it would have been if mods notice for a fact that sarcasm isn't always the best way to make a point, as mentioned earlier, if not contributing to the "academic" growth of the forum, why not just use PM?

[excel]

@bgk

From Minnesotan's first insulting post that interrupted an important discussion to his series of insults and snide remarks right upto his previous post, I do not find Minnesotan's actions to be compatible with his role as a moderator on this forum. I think it sets a bad precedent that a moderator can attack a person in such manner. I have nothing to gain from posting in this forum and will not do so until disciplinary action is taken against Minnesotan, and posters here are guaranteed some sort of protection against such insults.

I think it is entirely upto you whether you choose to protect members here from such insults or not. You can be assured that I will not post further to try to convince you one way or another. The two threads are there for all to see. For myself, wasting a day responding to such posts is strong enough a lesson to avoid this forum till the situation is rectified.

P.S. sash, I refrained from using "u" in this particular thread because it would have been unethical to do so- given that the use of "u" was the point under discussion here.

[excel]

...and I think everyone should pay close attention to pointed's last post.

[historygirl]

Disciplinary action?!? Please. Basically, you're asking to speak with the manager. The job of a moderator is not to make everyone feel good about themselves. It is to keep out spam and make sure that everything is posted in the right places. If you'd seen this site when the spambots took over, you'd understand. True, the moderator must step in when things get especially nasty. But a bit of sarcasm is not over the line, and neither is simply disagreeing with you. I've seen nasty posts, believe me. This was nothing like. In fact, the poster who has received the most vitriol on this forum has been...Minnesotan. And he handled it without whining and demanding retribution. So let's keep a little perspective, shall we?

I honestly cannot, not for the life of me, see where Minnesotan denigrated and insulted you. If you are so unbelievably fragile and overemotional that you were hurt by his remarks, you should, in all seriousness, seek counseling. I would be concerned for you.

Pointed, I never said that grad students were special. But there comes a time when a person has to grow up. I would cringe at a 50 year old woman wearing short shorts that had "juicy" plastered across the butt, but I would (grudgingly) accept it from a teenager. Speech is the same. When you grow up, you drop stuff like textspeak. When you enter academia or any professional field, you have to grow up. There has been some speculation that a lot of people go to grad school to avoid growing up. I suspect that is true, and it is perhaps where the resistance comes in. But you are not undergrads anymore; you are graduate students (or, striving to be). It's time to put away the Juicy shorts.

[bgk]

I have nothing to gain from posting in this forum and will not do so until disciplinary action is taken against Minnesotan, and posters here are guaranteed some sort of protection against such insults.

Excel: You asked for my "public" stance: People are entitled to free speech here, that includes moderators. Minnesotan volunteers his time to keep the boards tidy and help where possible and to do that he needs moderator status. I cannot take away his mod status simply because he said something you disagree with. I haven't read every reply in this thread, but what I have read seems largely 'tongue in cheek'. Thus, my reading is, if anyone has taken offense they are taking things too seriously.

However, if you still feel you have a serious grievance then send me a PM with quotes to backup your claims and I will consider the matter further. But I will add, I'd rather this issue sorted itself out :-).

[pointedears]

But you are not undergrads anymore; you are graduate students (or, striving to be). It's time to put away the Juicy shorts.

That there explains a lot. Personally, don't think it is an increase in one's status. It just means you want a more in-depth study of your chosen topic. The rest is just shiny jargon which I would rather ignore. Again, it comes down to different point of views. I choose to ignore anything and everything that is not related to the core topic. I know a lot of people will disagree, but being a grad student is not a life changing event. Yes, a career changing event which does change your life, but not a milestone which means you need to 'grow up.' Like I said, being a grad student doesn't make anyone elite.

But then I come from a country where no one drops out of school/college and you need a undergrad degree for even minimum pay jobs. So obviously, grad students are not as obsolete as in the US.

Speech is the same. When you grow up, you drop stuff like textspeak. When you enter academia or any professional field, you have to grow up.

No you don't. Textspeak is used for ease of typing/writing. It has got nothing to with one's age. Again, not talking about the extreme cases here.

[pointedears]

I would cringe at a 50 year old woman wearing short shorts that had "juicy" plastered across the butt

As long as it is not my butt, or she is not forcing me to wear it, I won't bother. Not my business what people choose to do with their lives. Not my business either to judge them based on their choices.

[snagsby52]

I know we have moved on, but I must stand up for Minnesotan and my fellow humanities applicants by saying that text-talk (text-speak) cheapens the greatness of the English language, and it hurts to see people not using the language correctly. Perhaps it is because I am in English, but I see "u" instead of "you" and my reaction is immediately one of disgust. If that is what you want from people who care about language, then so be it, but I am pretty sure that even though you are in the sciences, you want to be respected as a writer and a speaker as well. You will have to write and give many talks in the future, so I would think before you criticize the English "geeks" who are able to do those things with ease. I am certainly not a language snob, and I often have typos in my work, but there really are limits.

Anyway, I will back up my hatred of text-talk with an anecdote: I did A-levels in England, and I heard a horror story from my teacher about how a student wrote an entire A-level exam in text-talk. Can you imagine? The teachers thought they were failing their students, and it was painful to realize that the culture was breeding a generation of semi-illiterate kids.

This is an informal forum, but it is "thegradcafe" for a reason; it is for people who will go on to write long research papers, whether they be in the Humanities, the Sciences, or the Arts, and every paper will require a mastery of the English language. This is grad school, and nobody wants to read anything that isn't really good.

I will admit that at one point, I was writing text messages a lot--shortening all my words--and I realized after awhile that I was forgetting how to spell things correctly; my mind had become too used to that kind of spelling. Now I only text in full sentences, which is kind of silly, but I think it is cool.

I think it interesting that excel started writing in full and coherent sentences without the use of "u" when the discussion got going, because it really is embarrassing to write in text-talk. If he wanted to prove his point, then he should have continued; however, in truth nobody would have even wanted to continue the conversation if he did, because it is unbearable to argue with someone using that language. After awhile, you feel like an adult who is insisting on fighting with a child armed with play-dough.

I certainly do not think you are stupid excel. I congratulate you on your academic achievements. However, if you become a professor, I think you will eventually feel that you are dishonoring your students when you use such language.

[pointedears]

Alright, probably I haven't been clear with this till now. But except the part about the snobbery associated with being a grad student, why shouldn't netspeak be used on an online forum when it is perfectly comprehensible and doesn't interfere with the main function and purpose behind the existence of this forum?

Some people find it completely easy to know how they are supposed to talk in different situations. Just because someone used a 'u' here does not mean they'll be using it anywhere where their students might see it and feel dishonored. And if someone who knows them in a professional setup does chance upon this board and forms opinions about them irrespective of what they are like on the professional front in REAL LIFE, I say screw the snobs.

[historygirl]

Yes, yes. We're all equally valuable, we all have special, unique gifts, no one can judge a book by its cover, I don't care what snobs think anyway, yada yada yada.

Except it does matter.Networking can be done on online forums (seen it, been involved in it), and language matters. Habits are hard to break. But more than that, the underlying attitude may, in fact, hold you back. Grad students that are serious about language and their image get better jobs, better recs, and better evals. It isn't just about the language they use on an online forum - it's the attitude behind it that is more visible than you know. To be honest, a person that uses textspeak, to me, is a bit disdainful of the people around them. Pointed and excel's comments have only reinforced that idea. And lest you think I'm making this up, I've had this discussion with a variety of professors in a variety of fields in a variety of places. Every single one agreed.

If you are really convinced that it isn't a big deal, carry on. It doesn't hurt me at all, other than the minor annoyance of seeing it. But I find it rather ironic that your well-cultivated "image doesn't matter" attitude is, in fact, an image. I also think it's telling that those who defended textspeak made a far bigger deal out of this molehill than any original comments ever did. Doubt is fertile ground for defensiveness.

[excel]

I decided I wont post here, but I could not stop myself at reading this particular post :

I've had this discussion with a variety of professors in a variety of fields in a variety of places.

You have been discussing textspeak with a variety of professors in a variety of fields in a variety of places?

And what's more, after writing the previous thing, you say the following?

I also think it's telling that those who defended textspeak made a far bigger deal out of this molehill than any original comments ever did. Doubt is fertile ground for defensiveness.

What a joke!

(and in case you dont get it, how is it that you refer to something as only a molehill, and then claim that you go around discussing it with professors all over the place? )

[rising_star]

@bgk

From Minnesotan's first insulting post that interrupted an important discussion to his series of insults and snide remarks right upto his previous post, I do not find Minnesotan's actions to be compatible with his role as a moderator on this forum. I think it sets a bad precedent that a moderator can attack a person in such manner. I have nothing to gain from posting in this forum and will not do so until disciplinary action is taken against Minnesotan, and posters here are guaranteed some sort of protection against such insults.

I think it is entirely upto you whether you choose to protect members here from such insults or not. You can be assured that I will not post further to try to convince you one way or another. The two threads are there for all to see. For myself, wasting a day responding to such posts is strong enough a lesson to avoid this forum till the situation is rectified.

P.S. sash, I refrained from using "u" in this particular thread because it would have been unethical to do so- given that the use of "u" was the point under discussion here.

Excel, I'll weigh in on this too as another moderator. First, I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of what you've asked bgk to do. You want to take away Minnesotan's ability to express his opinions (even those that may be directed at you) and retain your ability to attack other users of this forum. Would you be so kind as to explain why without being condescending, patronizing, or passive aggressive? I'm asking for a genuine answer. Second, what, if any, disciplinary action would you like to see? Everyone has been warned to stay on topic, not engage in individual attacks, and be courteous towards other users. Are you willing to spend several hours per day deleting spam, handling duplicate posts, moving posts to the correct forum, etc with no compensation and often many complaints about what you do and why? Third, if we as moderators are going to protect members of this forum from insults, we would need to protect them from yours too since you are also a member and have engaged insulted some, at least as far as I've understood things. How do you propose we handle this? Should we take away everyone's posting privileges until they write an apology letter? How do you expect us to protect users from potential insults? Should we delete posts? Should we threaten individual users (which would be a form of attack that you have already railed against)? Specifically, what would you like us to do? And I do mean specifically. I want specific suggestions and I'd like for you to keep in mind that if any action were to be taken, they would likely be taken against you quickly since you have repeatedly engaged in attacks throughout this topic. If you do not wish to answer these questions publicly, feel free to PM me your response.

[excel]

pm-ed. goodnight.

[historygirl]

Yes, excel, it has come up with the people I mentioned. This is not the only public forum, nor are professors above venting about students at national and regional conferences when we meet for drinks and wind down. It isn't discussed intensely, but when it is mentioned, it sparks irritation and several well-elucidated comments. It usually begins, "Suzie Student emailed me using textspeak - how on earth does she expect me to take her seriously or even be willing to read her email?" "I had a grad student do it once! You would think they would know better!" In fact, many of them have put notations in their syllabi banning textspeak and, often, denouncing it. The general feeling was, and I quote, "Students who want to be taken seriously as adults should have more self-respect." And there you are.

You may certainly search on other forums for this information, if you choose to do so. I doubt you will. But carry on, carry on.

[pointedears]

It isn't just about the language they use on an online forum - it's the attitude behind it that is more visible than you know. To be honest, a person that uses textspeak, to me, is a bit disdainful of the people around them.

Umm...you have mentioned nothing except the topic of this thread here. Why is it so is what we're discussing here.

Pointed and excel's comments have only reinforced that idea. And lest you think I'm making this up, I've had this discussion with a variety of professors in a variety of fields in a variety of places. Every single one agreed. I also think it's telling that those who defended textspeak made a far bigger deal out of this molehill than any original comments ever did. Doubt is fertile ground for defensiveness.

So basically your argument is, you are right because people on the other side are wrong? Do you see something missing here? Also, if your idea of feeling superior is by belittling others, I don't know who the disdainful one is here. What is your point anyways? Something that can stand on it's own.

[pointedears]

"I had a grad student do it once! You would think they would know better!" In fact, many of them have put notations in their syllabi banning textspeak and, often, denouncing it. The general feeling was, and I quote, "Students who want to be taken seriously as adults should have more self-respect." And there you are.

You may certainly search on other forums for this information, if you choose to do so. I doubt you will. But carry on, carry on.

\

Oh, now I think I got it. Your argument is that something is right because it is the 'general feeling'?

p.s. - Was Suzie doing this on an informal forum? I wonder why she wasn't mailing the professor directly. And if she was, she is dumb to use textspeak there. But then, that's not what we're discussing here.

[luvalicious]

if your idea of feeling superior is by belittling others, I don't know who the disdainful one is here.

Interesting, coming from someone who characterized those on the other side as superficial and snobby.

I'll simplify my position as such: I have no problem with people using chatspeak or textspeak, but if we are not chatting or texting I'd prefer standard English. If it's a situation where I'm expected to take what you say seriously, my ability to do so depends on how you present yourself and your information. Textspeak is a trendy thing, for me, one that I associate with people much younger than myself. But let me be clear, I don't think it automatically means you're illiterate or even lazy. But without context that suggests that what you have to say will have any value to me (i.e, that you are a person of knowledge, or that you're even being serious), I have no reason to assume that you are - or that you aren't. So I just ignore what you've said or write it off.

I've actually asked other people about this in the past couple days - academics and professionals, and a few students - just to see if it was just me... and all of them agreed that there was something about textspeak in even an informal arena like a forum that suggests immaturity. Of course, maybe it's just the people I know, but somehow I doubt that viewpoint is the minority, which doesn't make it the authority but neither, makes it less valid. True, its a knee-jerk reaction, but it's more than a 'general feeling' - more like a convention of language.

But at the end of the day... I don't think there's some rule that people have to follow. You do what you want. You think what you want of it. I'll do the same.

[pointedears]

Interesting, coming from someone who characterized those on the other side as superficial and snobby.

I'll simplify my position as such: I have no problem with people using chatspeak or textspeak, but if we are not chatting or texting I'd prefer standard English. If it's a situation where I'm expected to take what you say seriously, my ability to do so depends on how you present yourself and your information. Textspeak is a trendy thing, for me, one that I associate with people much younger than myself. But let me be clear, I don't think it automatically means you're illiterate or even lazy. But without context that suggests that what you have to say will have any value to me (i.e, that you are a person of knowledge, or that you're even being serious), I have no reason to assume that you are - or that you aren't. So I just ignore what you've said or write it off.

I've actually asked other people about this in the past couple days - academics and professionals, and a few students - just to see if it was just me... and all of them agreed that there was something about textspeak in even an informal arena like a forum that suggests immaturity. Of course, maybe it's just the people I know, but somehow I doubt that viewpoint is the minority, which doesn't make it the authority but neither, makes it less valid. True, its a knee-jerk reaction, but it's more than a 'general feeling' - more like a convention of language.

But at the end of the day... I don't think there's some rule that people have to follow. You do what you want. You think what you want of it. I'll do the same.

I didn't call people on the other side either. I meant it is superficial and snobby to take this point of view without a reason. And I think most of you will agree with that. Assuming anything for no reason is snobby. Not saying you don't have reasons. Please see the difference.

Honestly? if you are asking for help, I doubt you will not take it seriously because of a simple 'u'. The reply was meant for someone who was desperately seeking help. The only downside I see to let people use chatspeak on forums? You can't draw a line anywhere. How do you tell people to what extent chatspeak is ok? Like I said previously, everyone has different levels of familiarity when it comes to chatspeak. Heavy chatspeak will obviously not be understood by most of us. So it is a good idea to just restrict chatspeak. But then, don't tell me that anyone had a problem in understanding that sentence because of the 'u'. I agree that textspeak should NOT be allowed in forums. I do not however agree that it says anything about the person's 'literacy'.

Come on, who are we kidding here? What is the topic called? Literacy and grad students! Will you really call any grad student 'illiterate' because they used chatspeak? Immature, fangirlish maybe, not illiterate for sure. I mean, look the word up before you answer this. The topic and this thread was started to insult people, not to discuss if chatspeak is ok. Personal opinion? Same as the first thing I said. Chatspeak is ok till I can understand what's being said. But then, various people have various degrees of familiarity with it, so it is just better to not allow it on a public forum.

This whole thing is like atheists speaking against religion. Weird analogy, but hear me out. Religion in itself is not evil, the fanatics who do the evil things make it seem evil to associate with an organized religion. Textspeak is not any more immature than shorthand typing. Just because rabid fangirls use it like their first language and abuse it to hell, it doesn't make everyone who uses textspeak immature. I know that is the general opinion. However I am aware enough to not fall to stereotypes and look beyond things like that.

[pointedears]

To be honest, a person that uses textspeak, to me, is a bit disdainful of the people around them. Pointed and excel's comments have only reinforced that idea.

Also, let me know when you find an instance of me using textspeak here or anywhere else on this forum. Or any of the other forums I am a part of.

[snagsby52]

This textspeak/text-talk conversation--I don't even know what it is really called officially--has gotten out of hand, and I would just like to say that if someone doesn't agree with what someone has said on the forum, it is TOTALLY inappropriate to send them a private message criticizing them. If you want to criticize something I have said, then please go ahead and do it in the PUBLIC forum. If you want to have a nice conversation with me about your grad situation, then I am fine with people sending me messages.

As to the textspeak, if you don't want to speak in English, then don't. However, stop acting like preserving coherent English isn't important when you are using it all over this forum. If you really want to prove that it is not unbelievably annoying, and that it is unimportant to a grad culture, then use it and see how long it takes for people on the thegradcafe to stop talking to you. The attempt to intellectualize the use of textspeak through the use of proper English is frankly stupid.

If there are international applicants who are having a hard time with their language, I say good for them for trying so hard. I am not fluent in another language, and the fact that they are writing almost perfectly in English is a remarkable achievement, which anyone who has ever studied another language would know. Yet, there is no excuse for writing in text English if you are an English speaker going to grad school. That form of speech is the only method of communication some kids use these days, and I cringe when I think of the day when I will receive a paper that begins: "Dikns wuz a gud writr, cuz he writ lot 'o books." Yeah, you can understand it, but do you want to?

[sashababie]

if someone doesn't agree with what someone has said on the forum, it is TOTALLY inappropriate to send them a private message criticizing them. If you want to criticize something I have said, then please go ahead and do it in the PUBLIC forum. If you want to have a nice conversation with me about your grad situation, then I am fine with people sending me messages.

I have to say that I politely disagree with this viewpoint. If it is the substance of a post that is inappropriate, public remonstration is a matter of course, but this was not the case. Textspeak is to say the truth annoying, but I am troubled at the way a moderator chose to address this problem. I myself have moderated discussion forums larger than this one and with many more pesky posters, and I do not think Minnesotan's ironic/sarcastic comments were called for in any way. Given the number of people using textspeak (next to none, i believe) here at gradcafe I would've thought excel had the sense to refrain from using it, but since she happened to it was right for a moderator to stand out, but the way it was expressed! Outsider looking in, the ill will was completely uncalled for. I don't know what historygirl means by nasty comments (crude? callous? swearwords?), but I would think Minnesotan's unfriendly at the least. True, he helps to keep order voluntarily and I think we all owe him thanks for a great environment, but that does not imply a moderator can say whatever he/she wants without consideration for the general tone. I'm in the humanities too, and an international at that (not native-English speaker), and I've found Minnesotan's comments elsewhere very helpful sometimes, so much so that this one thread seems completely incompatible with his general behavior, it almost seems like personal grudge. And that, IMHO, is very inappropriate in itself in a public space.