5th year

[carlyhylton]

I am currently a second year student pursuing my undergrad in psych.

Due to the competitive nature of applying to grad schools I have accepted that I might have to do a 5th year in my undergrad, especially to pull up my gpa/maybe retake gre, and also to gain more research/clinical experience (however I am more worried about my gpa/gre as I have already started to gain research experience and plan to increasingly).

I know this is thinking a bit ahead but I think constantly about applying to grad school/grad school (and these little questions drive me a little crazy, so glad I signed up for this forum!)...

During my hypothetical 5th year that I would take if I didn't get into grad schools upon applying in my 4th year, would it be better to:

a. repeat my worst courses (within my major)

If I repeat a course NCR (no credit retained) appears on my transcript with my first attempt, and the most recent attempt is listed with grade, and the most recent attempt is included in gpa instead of the first attempt.

OR

b. take new, more advanced courses within major

I read that grad schools might be critical of repeated courses on an american college's page on repeating courses.

However my thinking is that repeating courses would raise my gpa more significantly, in theory, and would be more easier to address in application (because I, in theory, would have demonstrated that I was able to succeed in the courses, etc).

Also keep in mind that this is also within the Canadian context... Canadian grad schools tend to look at major gpa in the last 60 credits completed as opposed to American schools which I understand look at overall gpas (correct me if I'm wrong!)

Thanks in advance!

Edited December 30, 2010 by carlyhylton

[neuropsych76]

I don't see why you would have to take a 5th year at all...

How bad is your GPA now? If you received C's and D's in your psych classes then repeating might be a good idea. However, if your trying to turn A-'s into A's than it is a complete waste of time.

Unless your GPA is bad (below 3.0 or so), I wouldn't take an extra year and spend more money paying for undergrad. It might be more beneficial to spend the extra time working full time in a research lab.

[carlyhylton]

I don't see why you would have to take a 5th year at all...

How bad is your GPA now? If you received C's and D's in your psych classes then repeating might be a good idea. However, if your trying to turn A-'s into A's than it is a complete waste of time.

Unless your GPA is bad (below 3.0 or so), I wouldn't take an extra year and spend more money paying for undergrad. It might be more beneficial to spend the extra time working full time in a research lab.

Thanks for your prompt response!

I dont know what my gpa is now but a very loose estimate would be that it is 3,0- under 3,5.... about B+ (my university is on a 9 pt gpa scale and I have been to lazy/scared to calculate my gpa in a while)

Based on my experience in the past 1 and a half years (since starting my undergrad) I would expect that a 3,5 gpa would therefore be about the highest I could possibly reach, and I'm not sure if this will be good enough to get into a Clinical Psych program. I will however apply, but in the case that I don't get in I think the best option would be to do a 5th year.

(...of course I would prefer to be accepted to a Clinical Psych program after my 4th year but it seems that everything is pretty competitive and that a <3,5 gpa might not be enough... so I'm fine with doing a 5th year if I can't get in because despite my lower grades I really think I want to pursue Clinical Psychology research and practice)

So it would be more like repeating C's and maybe B's (hopefully no D's!)..

Additionally I have been working in a research lab since last year, am currently applying to a Canadian government research grant under my lab supervisor (the NSERC Undergrad Student Research Award) and will continue to apply for this (this would also provide an opportunity to get published on the project and happens often in the lab/under the supervisor I work for), I hope to do a couple of poster presentations in the future, will have completed an honors thesis and will also continue to seek out alternative research opportunities/labs, so I'm not necessarily worried about research experience.

In my fifth year I wouldn't necessarily take a full course load and therefore could work additional hours in a lab...

So again, my thinking is that doing a 5th year, if I do not get accepted, would be beneficial, and specifically that repeating courses would be most beneficial...

[psychapplicant2011]

Are you wanting to become a clinical psychologists or do you want to become a researcher in clinical psychology?

[nessa]

I hesitate to give advice about stats, as I'm not sure how much any of us actually know about people's chances. However, with that caveat I would guess that a 3.5 is not horrible and will not keep you out of most Clinical Psych programs. One plus about clinical psych is that all schools (in the US, at least, I dunno about Canada) are required to publish the statistics of the people they admitted on their websites. Look for "outcomes data" or something similar. This info should give you an idea of where you stand.

If, in general, you are worried about not being a competitive applicant right out of 4 years of undergrad, doing another year of undergrad is not the best way to fix this. Maybe this is different in Canada, but in the US most people only do a 5th year if they do not have enough credits to graduate or otherwise had major issues with college. If you want to do something after 4 years of undergrad to increase your chances of getting into grad school, you can 1) do a master's program or 2) work in a lab for a year or two. The latter is becoming almost expected in order to get into better clinical psych schools.

[carlyhylton]

Are you wanting to become a clinical psychologists or do you want to become a researcher in clinical psychology?

My ultimate goal would be to practice as a Clinical Psychologist!

[carlyhylton]

I hesitate to give advice about stats, as I'm not sure how much any of us actually know about people's chances. However, with that caveat I would guess that a 3.5 is not horrible and will not keep you out of most Clinical Psych programs. One plus about clinical psych is that all schools (in the US, at least, I dunno about Canada) are required to publish the statistics of the people they admitted on their websites. Look for "outcomes data" or something similar. This info should give you an idea of where you stand.

If, in general, you are worried about not being a competitive applicant right out of 4 years of undergrad, doing another year of undergrad is not the best way to fix this. Maybe this is different in Canada, but in the US most people only do a 5th year if they do not have enough credits to graduate or otherwise had major issues with college. If you want to do something after 4 years of undergrad to increase your chances of getting into grad school, you can 1) do a master's program or 2) work in a lab for a year or two. The latter is becoming almost expected in order to get into better clinical psych schools.

There seems to be a lot of... uncertainty around stats yes. Most of stats I have looked at for Canadian and American school scare the sh*t out of me... haven't really seen a grad school that had gpa admission stats under 3,6, from what I remember and have heard.

In Canada there is another slight difference that I neglected to mention. The American Clinical Psych Ph.D Doctoral program is equivalent to a Master's)/Ph.D program in Canada, that is to say that its generally a combined program offering the two degrees one after the other. The Canadian Master's/Ph.D program usually takes 5 years, which is roughly the equivalent of an American Ph.D Doctoral program, I think (usually 4ish years)?

Which is almost irrelevant, in short, a Canadian Clinical Psych Master's would probably not be an option.

Again I'm not sure if getting more lab experience would be the best option as by the time I finish 4th year I'll hopefully have ~4 years lab experience.

Are there reputable terminal Master's programs in the states? I have also read about one year Master's programs in the states. Are there reputable one year programs?

Does anyone have any Canadian advice?

Edited December 31, 2010 by carlyhylton

[neuropsych76]

My ultimate goal would be to practice as a Clinical Psychologist!

If you are more into practicing clinical psychology, you could consider a Psy.D. These are less competitive but you can be licensed the same as a PhD. There are less research focused and more clinical focused.

I really don't think a 5th year would help in any circumstance unless you were getting terrible grades. Continuing your research would be fine but extra classes wouldn't help all that much. Remember, GPA is only one part of the application.

[nessa]

Most grad schools do have a mean/median GPA of 3.6 to 3.8, but that doesn't mean that someone with a 3.4 or 3.5 can't get in. You'd probably be only one standard deviation below the mean. I would say (and take this with several cups of salt) that if you have a 3.5, you don't need to worry, and if you have a 3.3 (or possibly 3.2) to 3.5 you are probably okay. Once again, I'm pretty much just pulling these numbers out of the air.

If you do have a lot of research experience, get a good GRE score, and have good recommendations, those will make much more of a difference than if you have a 3.4 versus a 3.6, so I would say you are worrying too much:)

However, if you are really set on doing something additional about your GPA, there are terminal Master's programs aplenty in the US. I can't really point you to a specific one, though. I don't know how much a one year program would help you, as you won't have anything to show for it when you apply (that is, you would not be even done with your first semester of your Master's when applications for Ph. D. programs would be due).

One last thing- clinical psych grad schools range from being very research focused to being very clinically focused. If you want to practice more than do research, the clinically focused Ph. D.s seem a bit less competitive. There are also other ways to practice therapy; I'm not sure if you've looked into counseling psychology or clinical social work, but those are options as well.

[carlyhylton]

If you are more into practicing clinical psychology, you could consider a Psy.D. These are less competitive but you can be licensed the same as a PhD. There are less research focused and more clinical focused.

I really don't think a 5th year would help in any circumstance unless you were getting terrible grades. Continuing your research would be fine but extra classes wouldn't help all that much. Remember, GPA is only one part of the application.

I will most definitely apply to Psy.D programs although Canada seems to hold more of a critical view on the Psy.D along with Clinical Psych Ph.D enthusiasts in the states.

I would not see it as the end of the world if I got into a Psy.D program, in theory I think it would be better because I primarily want to practice. Unfortunately though, I think getting a Ph.D in Clinical Psych would be seen by these Ph.D enthusiasts as more valuable and therefore I think I Ph.D would open more doors than a Psy.D

What is your feeling on the above in an American context? Are Ph.Ds seen as more 'valuable' etc in the states?

I will not forget the Psy.D option though! Thanks!

[carlyhylton]

Most grad schools do have a mean/median GPA of 3.6 to 3.8, but that doesn't mean that someone with a 3.4 or 3.5 can't get in. You'd probably be only one standard deviation below the mean. I would say (and take this with several cups of salt) that if you have a 3.5, you don't need to worry, and if you have a 3.3 (or possibly 3.2) to 3.5 you are probably okay. Once again, I'm pretty much just pulling these numbers out of the air.

If you do have a lot of research experience, get a good GRE score, and have good recommendations, those will make much more of a difference than if you have a 3.4 versus a 3.6, so I would say you are worrying too much:)

However, if you are really set on doing something additional about your GPA, there are terminal Master's programs aplenty in the US. I can't really point you to a specific one, though. I don't know how much a one year program would help you, as you won't have anything to show for it when you apply (that is, you would not be even done with your first semester of your Master's when applications for Ph. D. programs would be due).

One last thing- clinical psych grad schools range from being very research focused to being very clinically focused. If you want to practice more than do research, the clinically focused Ph. D.s seem a bit less competitive. There are also other ways to practice therapy; I'm not sure if you've looked into counseling psychology or clinical social work, but those are options as well.

That makes sense! Apparently I didn't understand intro stats as well as I thought

I guess I will have to see by 4th year anyways.

It seems generally consensus would be to apply to both terminal Master's programs and Ph.D (and Psy.D programs and Master's/Ph.D programs in Canada), so far. Anyone have any other opinions on this, or a Canadian perspective?

I'm really interested in abnormal psych/pathology which is why I think I would rather do a Doctoral degree in Clinical Psych, but I have heard that there is a lot of overlap between Clinical Psych/Counseling Psych/Clinical Social Work.

[neuropsych76]

I will most definitely apply to Psy.D programs although Canada seems to hold more of a critical view on the Psy.D along with Clinical Psych Ph.D enthusiasts in the states.

I would not see it as the end of the world if I got into a Psy.D program, in theory I think it would be better because I primarily want to practice. Unfortunately though, I think getting a Ph.D in Clinical Psych would be seen by these Ph.D enthusiasts as more valuable and therefore I think I Ph.D would open more doors than a Psy.D

What is your feeling on the above in an American context? Are Ph.Ds seen as more 'valuable' etc in the states?

I will not forget the Psy.D option though! Thanks!

From what I've heard, the PhD still has a slight edge but the Psy.D is catching up fast in the US. A PhD certainly provides more flexibility as you can do research and teach much more easily. However, for practicing purposes, the two degrees do not have much of a difference (assuming both degrees are from reputable schools). In fact, several presidents of the American Psychological Association had Psy.D's.

[nessa]

well, I'm a bit of a stats geek

I agree that the Psy.D. is about the same for practicing, but another point to keep in mind is that Psy. D. programs are not usually funded, so you will have a lot more debt. It's up to you if that matters or not. Once you get out of grad school, though, the only thing you would have problems with a Psy. D. would be if you wanted to teach at a university. Otherwise, I think the pay, positions, etc. are about equal.

And if you want to do abnormal psych, counseling may not be best, but I would still look into social work. A lot of people doing therapy, even with severe mental illness, have a social work background- look into getting a LICSW. Good luck, regardless!

[psychapplicant2011]

My ultimate goal would be to practice as a Clinical Psychologist!

If you are not looking to get a job at as a researcher and are primarily interested in practicing clinical psychology, the range of schools/programs to which you can apply and still have a decent chance of a successful career is much larger. What this means for you is a final GPA of 3.5, GRE 1100-1200 is not all the detrimental to you. With those stats, you probably will not get into one of the best programs, but you can get into one that will allow you to develop the tools you need to have a successful career as a clinical psychologist.

Between now and the fall of the 4th year, take (relevant) tough courses and make A's in them. This would mean more than simply retaking a course you bombed in your first year of college. (Many times admission committees are willing to overlook bad grades in the first year or so, as long as the more recent grades are stellar.) Also, take another stats course and ace this second stats course. Admission committees at PhD programs -- even those that have more of an applied focus -- like to look at your stats background.

Make sure to take both the general GRE and the psych GRE. Almost all programs require the former. Most clinical psych programs require the latter. You should shoot for at least 80th percentile on all the tests/sub tests.

Also, you need to make sure you have outstanding letters of reference. As long as your stats aren't bad, these letters will matter more than anything else.

By the time it gets close to applying out, you should have a candid conversation with the professor(s) who know you best. He/she will be in the best position to tell you what kind of programs you should be targeting.

Also, keep terminal MA programs in mind. There are a handful of funded programs in the US. Good performance in a terminal MA program can make up for problems at the undergraduate level.

[carlyhylton]

From what I've heard, the PhD still has a slight edge but the Psy.D is catching up fast in the US. A PhD certainly provides more flexibility as you can do research and teach much more easily. However, for practicing purposes, the two degrees do not have much of a difference (assuming both degrees are from reputable schools). In fact, several presidents of the American Psychological Association had Psy.D's.

I was definitely under the impression that the Psy.D still had a bad rap. Thank you so much for all of the fantastic advice! Much appreciated : )

[carlyhylton]

well, I'm a bit of a stats geek

I agree that the Psy.D. is about the same for practicing, but another point to keep in mind is that Psy. D. programs are not usually funded, so you will have a lot more debt. It's up to you if that matters or not. Once you get out of grad school, though, the only thing you would have problems with a Psy. D. would be if you wanted to teach at a university. Otherwise, I think the pay, positions, etc. are about equal.

And if you want to do abnormal psych, counseling may not be best, but I would still look into social work. A lot of people doing therapy, even with severe mental illness, have a social work background- look into getting a LICSW. Good luck, regardless!

I didn't realize Clinical Social Work was so similar to Clinical psych! Thank you so much for all of the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[carlyhylton]

If you are not looking to get a job at as a researcher and are primarily interested in practicing clinical psychology, the range of schools/programs to which you can apply and still have a decent chance of a successful career is much larger. What this means for you is a final GPA of 3.5, GRE 1100-1200 is not all the detrimental to you. With those stats, you probably will not get into one of the best programs, but you can get into one that will allow you to develop the tools you need to have a successful career as a clinical psychologist.

Between now and the fall of the 4th year, take (relevant) tough courses and make A's in them. This would mean more than simply retaking a course you bombed in your first year of college. (Many times admission committees are willing to overlook bad grades in the first year or so, as long as the more recent grades are stellar.) Also, take another stats course and ace this second stats course. Admission committees at PhD programs -- even those that have more of an applied focus -- like to look at your stats background.

Make sure to take both the general GRE and the psych GRE. Almost all programs require the former. Most clinical psych programs require the latter. You should shoot for at least 80th percentile on all the tests/sub tests.

Also, you need to make sure you have outstanding letters of reference. As long as your stats aren't bad, these letters will matter more than anything else.

By the time it gets close to applying out, you should have a candid conversation with the professor(s) who know you best. He/she will be in the best position to tell you what kind of programs you should be targeting.

Also, keep terminal MA programs in mind. There are a handful of funded programs in the US. Good performance in a terminal MA program can make up for problems at the undergraduate level.

I will start to look into terminal Master's programs : )

I have looked into a couple already but they don't seem to provide much info on admissions

Are they generally less competitive?

Thanks so much for all the great info!!

[lewin]

If you're open to a fifth year and are having trouble getting good grades, one possibility is to take fewer courses each year. You'll have more time to focus on each one and get good grades on the first try. You can also use that extra time to get clinically relevant work experience. It's a bit worrisome that you're already anticipating bad grades. Wouldn't it make more sense to set things up NOW so that you're able to succeed? If a full course load is too much, cut down.

I finished my BA in five years, taking a 60% course load in the last two years. I had lots of time to focus on each class and get good grades, and worked half-time as a clinical research assistant. Happy endings all around.

Edited January 4, 2011 by lewin00

[carlyhylton]

If you're open to a fifth year and are having trouble getting good grades, one possibility is to take fewer courses each year. You'll have more time to focus on each one and get good grades on the first try. You can also use that extra time to get clinically relevant work experience. It's a bit worrisome that you're already anticipating bad grades. Wouldn't it make more sense to set things up NOW so that you're able to succeed? If a full course load is too much, cut down.

I finished my BA in five years, taking a 60% course load in the last two years. I had lots of time to focus on each class and get good grades, and worked half-time as a clinical research assistant. Happy endings all around.

I do plan to take 3-4 courses in my last two years as I plan to make up courses is the spring/summer semesters.

I'm anticipating 'bad grades' based on my current academic performance.

I'm not currently TRYING to get 'bad grades' in fact the opposite, but the fact is I'm not a straight A student.

Your clinical research assistant position sounds amazing, how did you manage to find that? My school offers a clinical placement in fourth year but I don't think it is a research position.

[lewin]

I do plan to take 3-4 courses in my last two years as I plan to make up courses is the spring/summer semesters.

I'm anticipating 'bad grades' based on my current academic performance.

I'm not currently TRYING to get 'bad grades' in fact the opposite, but the fact is I'm not a straight A student.

Your clinical research assistant position sounds amazing, how did you manage to find that? My school offers a clinical placement in fourth year but I don't think it is a research position.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I don't think you're trying to get bad grades but that if you're self-aware enough to see that they're a real possibility it might make more sense to plan on how to avoid the problem instead of fixing it later. That's all I meant.

The position was in the program evaluation department of a social services agency. I did stats and wrote reports on outcome measures. This place had an informal arrangement where they hired students each year and I heard about the job through a professor that I knew (from doing well in her class).

[carlyhylton]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I don't think you're trying to get bad grades but that if you're self-aware enough to see that they're a real possibility it might make more sense to plan on how to avoid the problem instead of fixing it later. That's all I meant.

The position was in the program evaluation department of a social services agency. I did stats and wrote reports on outcome measures. This place had an informal arrangement where they hired students each year and I heard about the job through a professor that I knew (from doing well in her class).

Wow! Fantastic opportunity!

I see your location is Canada... may I ask where in Canada this was? You don't have to tell me, of course ( :