Is it worth it to apply?

[remy]

Hi, so I'm looking to apply to English Lit programs (subfield being Victorian lit and empire) for Fall of 2012. This means I'll be applying in October-December 2011. I currently go to a non-ranked school that few people have ever heard of, although there are faculty from very prestigious schools who think I have a shot at a high-ranking program.

The biggest issue with my transcript is that I outright failed my sophomore year of college, followed by a semester of withdrawals. None of the F's or W's were in English classes, and I left school for a year then returned, declared an English major, and have a 3.2 in English so far. My professors don't seem to be concerned that this will highly affect me, mainly because from my transcript it appears that I left, got my act together, and came back. One has commented that I have an "upward trend" that will be reassuring to adcomms.

That said, because of the year of F's, I probably will have a 2.8 - 3.0 upon graduating. I am addressing the issue in my SOP (the cause of the F's was a year long illness followed by a hospitalization) but my concern is that top programs will refuse to consider my transcript based on the GPA.

Sorry for the novel, but to get to my question: For those of you who have low GPA's or GRE scores, is the rumor that SOP/recommendations > numbers really true, or does this apply for GPA's that aren't stellar but still meet the requirements? Given that the majority of my grades are several years in the past, will this be something that affects my application still? Most importantly, should I bother applying to high-ranking programs?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can give me.

[Medievalmaniac]

Hi, so I'm looking to apply to English Lit programs (subfield being Victorian lit and empire) for Fall of 2012. This means I'll be applying in October-December 2011. I currently go to a non-ranked school that few people have ever heard of, although there are faculty from very prestigious schools who think I have a shot at a high-ranking program.

The biggest issue with my transcript is that I outright failed my sophomore year of college, followed by a semester of withdrawals. None of the F's or W's were in English classes, and I left school for a year then returned, declared an English major, and have a 3.2 in English so far. My professors don't seem to be concerned that this will highly affect me, mainly because from my transcript it appears that I left, got my act together, and came back. One has commented that I have an "upward trend" that will be reassuring to adcomms.

That said, because of the year of F's, I probably will have a 2.8 - 3.0 upon graduating. I am addressing the issue in my SOP (the cause of the F's was a year long illness followed by a hospitalization) but my concern is that top programs will refuse to consider my transcript based on the GPA.

Sorry for the novel, but to get to my question: For those of you who have low GPA's or GRE scores, is the rumor that SOP/recommendations > numbers really true, or does this apply for GPA's that aren't stellar but still meet the requirements? Given that the majority of my grades are several years in the past, will this be something that affects my application still? Most importantly, should I bother applying to high-ranking programs?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can give me.

If you want to apply, and really think you can and want to do the work at the graduate level, then you should apply. The recommendations and SOP are important. However, you should certainly consider applying to a range of schools. You might consider an MA program to begin with to show that you are capable of sustained academic achievement. The fact that your grades show an uphill trend does play a role in this. It would be highly unlikely that you would receive a fellowship or TA / RA position with a GPOA under 3.0, but not unheard of, particularly if your test scores are high.

That said, my experiences have been less-than-felicitous, and I was informed by two adcomms last season that the reason I was not offered admission was my undergraduate GPA from 13 years ago (< 3.0). HOWEVER, there were extenuating circumstances, I did not specifically address the GPA in my statement, and I was encouraged to do so by an English DGS for this go-round. Perhaps, if I had addressed it last time instead of assuming my more recent 4.0 at the graduate level would automatically offset it, I would have achieved different results.

You have the support of your professors, and if they are willing to write letters of recommendation for you, they also can address the GPA issue and help to mitigate it for you. I also recommend trying to arrange an interview with the DGS of programs you are interested in applying to, either via phone or in person, and speaking with that person directly as regards how best to handle your GPA in your application. I got a lot of great feedback from one DGS in particular about my situation that really helped to strengthen my application.

Good luck!

[mostlygoo]

Agree with medieval... A few other thoughts, too.

I had a similar situation, although it was much farther in my past. I failed the second semester of my sophomore year of undergrad (by waiting too long to withdraw after deciding I wasn't going to stay in school), and ended up with something like a 2.5 GPA for my first two years of school because of that semester. (The other semesters weren't great either.)

I went back and finished my degree somewhere else, much (> 15 years) later. My GPA for my "official" school was 4.0, which looked pretty good, but all those F's were still on my transcript. Our situations aren't quite the same because I'm probably much more "non-traditional" for a Lit program at 41 years old, and I don't have any inside information about the admissions process, but this has been my approach:

1. I explained things (the best that I could) in my statement of purpose. I didn't dwell on the negatives, just made note of the fact that I didn't know what I was doing when I started out.

2. I spent a great deal of time on my writing sample, because I knew it would be more important for my application than for someone who was bringing a stellar (and problem-free) transcript history. To avoid submitting something that would seem too much like an assignment, I picked something in my field, something I loved, then researched and wrote something far more original (and risky) than anything I'd done in school. I knew I wasn't going to stand out with my grades, so I had to try something else. (And it was a good way of implicitly evaluating the programs for which I was applying -- if they responded to the writing sample, then they felt the program was also a good match for me. If not, maybe it really wasn't the best match anyway.)

3. I'm applying to a range of programs to increase my odds of getting funding. That one seems obvious, but last application season I only applied to one school, and got in but without funding because I'd missed the funding deadline. Or maybe because of that less-than-stellar undergrad history -- there was just no way to tell. And instead of accepting that I wasn't going to be able to compete because of my background, I decided to be patient and re-apply to multiple schools this year (including the program that accepted me this past fall).

You might also consider one other option -- taking a grad school course or two as a non-degree student this spring, summer or fall, before your application deadlines for 2012. It would give you another possible source for recommendation letters and writing samples, and help to further offset the impact of that undergrad GPA.

Best of luck...

[remy]

Thank you for the reply, guys!

My dilemma is Master's funding :/ With the job market the way it is, I simply cannot afford to go without at least some funding.

I don't know if this makes a difference, but in the middle of my transcript I left school for a full year, and since returning I have a 3.35 in the most recent 60 credit hours (and all A's in my most recent semester of 18 credits.) Would this be something they would consider?

[poco_puffs]

Congratulations on sticking to it and pulling your undergraduate work together for a strong finish! I had a weak year as well, but I was fortunate enough to transfer and lose some of the failed/withdrawn credits in the process. Postmodern and Medievalmaniac make some excellent points, and I hope that their advice serves you well. I'm a little bummed about what I'm going to say here, but it's another factor we all had/have to consider when applying for school (and maybe jobs someday, who knows), and I feel like it could help you be extra-tough on yourself when you're putting together your packet and making your choices on programs, and perhaps extra-forgiving to yourself after applications are in:

Adcomms are humans, and they can be both fickle and forgiving, and they can overlook a lot of flaws in an application because they see something remarkable in your scores or writing or recommendations, even if it isn't all there in the GPA department. This has, does, and will happen. However, in response to your last question about whether they'll consider a particular factor, they might or they might not-- the big issue, and this is what makes it a tough game all around, is that your application is not sitting alone on a table for them to consider. They might see your application, appreciate you and everything you've done and will be able to do, but your application is sitting in a pile of other applications. Lots of them will be weaker, but some will be as strong or stronger-- especially when there are people out there (damn them!) who got straight As and great exam scores through everything. Schools have limited spots, and limited money, so we have to play as smart and tough as we can. Think of it like an underdog boxer, scrapping his way to the top in spite of all the odds and naysayers-- it helped me

Luckily, it's a competition with a lot of factors. Some, but not all, are number factors. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence, including quite a bit on this board, where numbers didn't hurt a persons chances in the long run, especially when they had other very strong components to their packet. So, be honest with yourself (what you want, what you're willing to go for or sacrifice in terms of money, lifestyle, program quality), with your work (we ALL have room for improvement, and the more vigorously you can edit and push yourself the better), and with the schools (let them know the situation, what you can do, what you passionately ache to study). As the others have said, play up your strengths.

Take every advantage you can between now and application-time! You're actually rather fortunate that you've got this much time to plan, prepare and polish.

Edited January 4, 2011 by poco_puffs

[remy]

Congratulations on sticking to it and pulling your undergraduate work together for a strong finish! I had a weak year as well, but I was fortunate enough to transfer and lose some of the failed/withdrawn credits in the process. Postmodern and Medievalmaniac make some excellent points, and I hope that their advice serves you well. I'm a little bummed about what I'm going to say here, but it's another factor we all had/have to consider when applying for school (and maybe jobs someday, who knows), and I feel like it could help you be extra-tough on yourself when you're putting together your packet and making your choices on programs, and perhaps extra-forgiving to yourself after applications are in:

Adcomms are humans, and they can be both fickle and forgiving, and they can overlook a lot of flaws in an application because they see something remarkable in your scores or writing or recommendations, even if it isn't all there in the GPA department. This has, does, and will happen. However, in response to your last question about whether they'll consider a particular factor, they might or they might not-- the big issue, and this is what makes it a tough game all around, is that your application is not sitting alone on a table for them to consider. They might see your application, appreciate you and everything you've done and will be able to do, but your application is sitting in a pile of other applications. Lots of them will be weaker, but some will be as strong or stronger-- especially when there are people out there (damn them!) who got straight As and great exam scores through everything. Schools have limited spots, and limited money, so we have to play as smart and tough as we can. Think of it like an underdog boxer, scrapping his way to the top in spite of all the odds and naysayers-- it helped me

Luckily, it's a competition with a lot of factors. Some, but not all, are number factors. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence, including quite a bit on this board, where numbers didn't hurt a persons chances in the long run, especially when they had other very strong components to their packet. So, be honest with yourself (what you want, what you're willing to go for or sacrifice in terms of money, lifestyle, program quality), with your work (we ALL have room for improvement, and the more vigorously you can edit and push yourself the better), and with the schools (let them know the situation, what you can do, what you passionately ache to study). As the others have said, play up your strengths.

Take every advantage you can between now and application-time! You're actually rather fortunate that you've got this much time to plan, prepare and polish.

Thanks for this! Don't feel bad, I definitely needed to hear it, and to be honest I was expecting replies in the area of "LOL, don't even bother" so it's relieving to see that at some point in the future I still have a shot.

At the end of the day, the most I can do is find schools with a good fit and be the best applicant they can. My grades are what they are. Sigh...

[Tybalt]

Thank you for the reply, guys!

My dilemma is Master's funding :/ With the job market the way it is, I simply cannot afford to go without at least some funding.

I don't know if this makes a difference, but in the middle of my transcript I left school for a full year, and since returning I have a 3.35 in the most recent 60 credit hours (and all A's in my most recent semester of 18 credits.) Would this be something they would consider?

I'm not sure how mobile you are in your search, but check out St. Bonaventure University. They have a 2-year MA program with a professional track designed to prepare students for pursuing a PhD. They have a Learning/Teaching Fellowship that:

-covers 50% of tuition

-offers a stipend (that basically covers the other half of tuition)

-gets you teaching experience (teaching freshmen comp)

-and it in an area of Western NY that is dirt cheap to live

I'm wrapping up that program this year, and I've really enjoyed the experience. One of last year's graduates was accepted to the PhD program at U of Rochester and another was offered a funded spot at Syracuse. The Victorian prof, Dr. Lauren Matz, is one of the best profs on the faculty.

I'm not sure if you're up for traveling that far, but we're holding our inaugural graduate conference in March. Our CfP is up on the UPenn site, and you can also get the info from the link below. We're accepting promising submissions from qualified undergrads.

http://web.me.com/smoneil/BonasConference/Welcome.html

[woolfie]

Hmm, now I'm wondering if I did the right thing as I did NOT mention my bad grades.

I also had a bad first semester: I had a few Fs and some Cs and Ws and I dropped out. My mom had just died, my dad was gone, and I had severe financial problems so I just stopped going to class like an idiot. I asked a professor/recommender if I should explain that and she said no, definitely not if the rest of my transcript was good. She said not to make excuses and not to highlight bad parts of my applications, to make the SoP as positive as possible about my strengths. Since I went back to school 4 years later after this bad semester, got mostly As and Bs with a gpa of 3.70, I agreed with her and did not mention my deficiencies unless I could turn it into a strength.

I did mention in the SoP that I worked full-time while getting my degree because I thought that was a highlight of a strength of mine, that I have time management skills, educational administrative experience, etc. But I did not mention my mother's death and the financial problems that led to my depression and dropping out. I think this might have been the right thing to do, as they will see that i had 4 years in between and great grades when returning, but part of me regrets not mentioning it. If a school had a personal statement, like Michigan, I did mention it as it was personal info. But for academic SoPs, I left it out. I'm curious what people think about my choice; I'm still ambivalent.

(Maybe it's because right now my job is an admissions evaluator for undergraduate applications and I read undergraduate essays all the time that make excuses for problems that everyone has and I get very tired of reading them. They make the student look bad from my perspective, when I read an essay about how they couldn't get into this one AP class because they had mono one time and this one teacher was mean so their grades weren't as good as they could be if they hadn't had to go to soccer practice every day and also their school levy didn't pass, etc. That's undergrad, though, I know.)

[woolfie]

-covers 50% of tuition

I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but to me, 50% off tuition doesn't sound like a good deal, especially if you are from out of state. Maybe it's an entitled philosophy to have, but I believe that you shouldn't go to graduate school in English if you have to pay for it. There are MA programs (such as the ones I applied to) and most PhD programs that cover 100% of tuition. Again, don't mean to be a jerk. Maybe it would be worth it if you are in-state and already live near there/have a job there.

[mostlygoo]

Maybe it's because right now my job is an admissions evaluator for undergraduate applications and I read undergraduate essays all the time that make excuses for problems that everyone has and I get very tired of reading them.

Good point here, and I agree completely that you have to be careful about explaining anything negative in your application. A tough thing to do without appearing defensive.

My idea was to be very, very brief, and keep it light. I just noted that I left school early, that I wasn't committed when I was 18. I didn't specifically mention the grades, because I knew they'd make the connection with the transcript. So my statement was really just a way of filling in the "story" so they'd have a clearer picture of me as a candidate. (For the same reason, I think it helps to explain long gaps in your educational background. If you don't explain it, they'll fill in the story on their own.)

I'd also limit the personal details as much as possible. I think "I left school for a year for personal reasons" is better than describing health, relationship or family issues, no matter how legitimate (and serious) they might be. Especially if it's presented in the context of a progression toward being academically successful. Don't give the appearance of looking for pity or even understanding -- as others have pointed out, there are too many people competing for spots who don't need that pity or understanding. But if you appear honest and self-aware, that can help.

[shepardn7]

Hmm, now I'm wondering if I did the right thing as I did NOT mention my bad grades.

They make the student look bad from my perspective, when I read an essay about how they couldn't get into this one AP class because they had mono one time and this one teacher was mean so their grades weren't as good as they could be if they hadn't had to go to soccer practice every day and also their school levy didn't pass, etc. That's undergrad, though, I know.)

Well, that kind of "excuse" reeks of privilege (mean teacher? really?) and does seem different from "my mom died and my dad was gone." That excuse would seem a solid one for poor grades, especially for a teenager (which you pretty much still were during your first semester of college). I got a C in a basic math class the year I experienced a tragedy because it was the one class I couldn't pretend to care about, and it's a miracle I got As and Bs in my other classes (except English, which I always put my all into) that year, given my resulting depression and the kinds of reckless activities in which I was partaking. This is something I would handle much differently at twenty-six than at seventeen. I don't remember if I mentioned what happened in my college admissions essay. I think I did, but in passing.

So, anyway, I think your excuse is a good one, but I agree with your professor that it's probably not necessary to mention it. Your bad grades were limited to the first semester of your undergrad! And you dropped out and even filed for a W or two, which implies that something happened to you that required you to leave school. And it's not even a huge deal if they just think you weren't ready for college yet, because it was, what, eight years ago? And then you came back four years later to make good marks, which further emphasizes that the problem was situational and that the grades you made at eighteen do not reflect your current abilities. I really think it's fine. You were eighteen. You're in your mid-twenties. It's history. No worries.

[Tybalt]

I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but to me, 50% off tuition doesn't sound like a good deal, especially if you are from out of state. Maybe it's an entitled philosophy to have, but I believe that you shouldn't go to graduate school in English if you have to pay for it. There are MA programs (such as the ones I applied to) and most PhD programs that cover 100% of tuition. Again, don't mean to be a jerk. Maybe it would be worth it if you are in-state and already live near there/have a job there.

As I said, it's a 50% tuition waiver and a stipend to cover the other half. It's not easy, but it's possible to get through it without loans. Also, Bonaventure is a private school, so no in-state/out-of-state concerns.

When I applied in 2008, I DID apply to programs with full funding. I added Bonaventure to the list because it had some funding and I liked the look of the program (and they have their own rare book wing in the library). I had been in the work force for 5 years (HS teacher) and my undergrad transcript had the same kind of flaws as yours (for very similar reasons, actually).

A program like Bonaventure is a great middle-ground for people (like me) who are unlikely to get a fully funded spot somewhere. Back then, I had one lousy undergrad transcript (I finished my undergrad at a different school), one good undergrad transcript, and a resume full of teaching experience, but light on scholarship. Thanks to my time at Bonaventure, I've added a phenomenal graduate level transcript, I've audited 4 semesters of Latin, I've presented at 4 conferences (including 2 major national conferences and one international), and I've really improved my SoP and writing sample. On top of that, I'm sure my LoR's are much better, since the ones from two years ago were from undergrad profs I hadn't seen in 5 years. Like I said--I've had to work and live in poverty a bit, but I believe that I've put myself in a much better position to succeed for the PhD round. To each their own.

Incidentally, I spoke with the DGS at Delaware two years ago after I was rejected. Back then, I included a short statement about the reasons for my early undergraduate troubles in my resume. He basically told me that I NEEDED to address that issue in the SoP.

[remy]

He basically told me that I NEEDED to address that issue in the SoP.

I agree. If it was one bad grade I wouldn't, but an entire year of F's I'm planning to say something along the lines of "My grades from my sophomore year of college at [college] do not reflect my academic abilities. Aware that I was not achieving to my potential, I withdrew from university for one year to recover from an illness and reexamine my academic goals. When I came back to college, I did so with an appreciation for the intellectual challenges I would face and with gratitude for my second chance at academic studies. My record since returning to college....

Basically, deal with it but then quickly explain why events from 2007-2008 no longer matter when I'm applying in Fall 2011....

[HappyCat]

Hmm, now I'm wondering if I did the right thing as I did NOT mention my bad grades.

I also had a bad first semester: I had a few Fs and some Cs and Ws and I dropped out. My mom had just died, my dad was gone, and I had severe financial problems so I just stopped going to class like an idiot. I asked a professor/recommender if I should explain that and she said no, definitely not if the rest of my transcript was good. She said not to make excuses and not to highlight bad parts of my applications, to make the SoP as positive as possible about my strengths. Since I went back to school 4 years later after this bad semester, got mostly As and Bs with a gpa of 3.70, I agreed with her and did not mention my deficiencies unless I could turn it into a strength.

I did mention in the SoP that I worked full-time while getting my degree because I thought that was a highlight of a strength of mine, that I have time management skills, educational administrative experience, etc. But I did not mention my mother's death and the financial problems that led to my depression and dropping out. I think this might have been the right thing to do, as they will see that i had 4 years in between and great grades when returning, but part of me regrets not mentioning it. If a school had a personal statement, like Michigan, I did mention it as it was personal info. But for academic SoPs, I left it out. I'm curious what people think about my choice; I'm still ambivalent.

(Maybe it's because right now my job is an admissions evaluator for undergraduate applications and I read undergraduate essays all the time that make excuses for problems that everyone has and I get very tired of reading them. They make the student look bad from my perspective, when I read an essay about how they couldn't get into this one AP class because they had mono one time and this one teacher was mean so their grades weren't as good as they could be if they hadn't had to go to soccer practice every day and also their school levy didn't pass, etc. That's undergrad, though, I know.)

I bombed my freshman year of college (basically failed out), transferred, got a fresh start, and pulled my GPA up. However, my old transcript has to be sent to the schools (huzzah). My freshman year was 2004, got my MA with honors, presented at many conferences since then, taught college composition, etc.

I, too, did not mention my grades. Now I'm a bit worried. :-\

[KRC]

The biggest issue with my transcript is that I outright failed my sophomore year of college, followed by a semester of withdrawals. None of the F's or W's were in English classes, and I left school for a year then returned, declared an English major, and have a 3.2 in English so far. My professors don't seem to be concerned that this will highly affect me, mainly because from my transcript it appears that I left, got my act together, and came back. One has commented that I have an "upward trend" that will be reassuring to adcomms.

That said, because of the year of F's, I probably will have a 2.8 - 3.0 upon graduating.

This is exactly the situation I am currently in. Bombed out after 3 semesters with a .8 total GPA. Came back after a year, changed majors (and picked up another major) and ended up with 3.7 and 3.6 major GPA's, despite a 2.9 overall. I think that in terms of selective consideration of statistics like this, your major GPA is a better indicator than your "last 60 credits" or whatever.

I believe and I have been told that my overall package is "great" despite the horror of my UG transcripts, and I'm less anxious waiting to hear back because I also have an MA with a 4.0, which I'm inclined to think will greatly displace the sorry state of affairs during your/our UG.

But besides all that, if everything else about your package is good, you've been told you have potential, and you want to pursue advanced study, would you be comfortable not even trying because one part of your application is deficient? Committees each weigh applications differently and almost all humanities dept's give little (or the least) credence to "numbers" i.e. GRE and grades. Nail the crap out of your SOP and WS, get good letters, and NETWORK with the faculty you'd like to study with before applying and you'll have nothing to worry about. You won't necessarily get in with funding, but you'll have nothing to worry about imho.

Edited January 10, 2011 by KRC