What are my chances?

[Fallen]

Hello, first post so I hope I'm not violating any rules.

I'm currently in my third year in an undergraduate degree in Stats. at the University of Toronto.

I would like to attend graduate school once I finish my degree in either applied math or statistics. If I stay in Canada, it would be a masters program, I am not 100% sure how things work in the States.

My problem is, my GPA is horrendous right now. I have a 2.0 currently. Not including the current semester, I have 2 full semester left, and plan on spending another 2 semesters working on grades. However, even if I ace every course I take from now on, I will only finish with ~3.00 GPA. I slacked off really bad my first 2.5 years of school, and that has really screwed me.

Is there anything else I can do to improve my chances?

Thanks

[Xero735]

What and where are you looking to go (and what program)?

[brollyparagus]

Hello, first post so I hope I'm not violating any rules.

I'm currently in my third year in an undergraduate degree in Stats. at the University of Toronto.

I would like to attend graduate school once I finish my degree in either applied math or statistics. If I stay in Canada, it would be a masters program, I am not 100% sure how things work in the States.

My problem is, my GPA is horrendous right now. I have a 2.0 currently. Not including the current semester, I have 2 full semester left, and plan on spending another 2 semesters working on grades. However, even if I ace every course I take from now on, I will only finish with ~3.00 GPA. I slacked off really bad my first 2.5 years of school, and that has really screwed me.

Is there anything else I can do to improve my chances?

Thanks

Hello Fallen, I just graduated from the BSc program in Statistics and Economics at UofT and will be attending their MSc program coming this fall. I want you to know that the stats dept. at least at UofT and Waterloo are quite forgiving so long as you did will in the critical courses: MAT137 (Calculus), MAT237 (Advanced Calculus), MAT223 (Linear Algebra). While these three courses are 'critical', they do not determine entirely whether you will get in. My grades in MAT237 and MAT223 were in the B-/B range. However, these are very good prep courses for STA347 (Probability I), STA447 (Stochastic Processes), MAT352 (Mathematical Statistics), and MAT337 (Real Analysis, I did not take this but it might help you given your situation), and these are the major critical courses in which you need to score A/A+.

Now my situation was a little different since I had done some research in my senior year, but as it stands, as long as you have done well in the courses I've mentioned, or will do so, you should talk to your referees and ask their advice on how to approach applying for grad school (they sure did help me!).

Also, good luck with McDunnough if you're taking STA447 this term!

BP

[Fallen]

Hello Fallen, I just graduated from the BSc program in Statistics and Economics at UofT and will be attending their MSc program coming this fall. I want you to know that the stats dept. at least at UofT and Waterloo are quite forgiving so long as you did will in the critical courses: MAT137 (Calculus), MAT237 (Advanced Calculus), MAT223 (Linear Algebra). While these three courses are 'critical', they do not determine entirely whether you will get in. My grades in MAT237 and MAT223 were in the B-/B range. However, these are very good prep courses for STA347 (Probability I), STA447 (Stochastic Processes), MAT352 (Mathematical Statistics), and MAT337 (Real Analysis, I did not take this but it might help you given your situation), and these are the major critical courses in which you need to score A/A+.

Now my situation was a little different since I had done some research in my senior year, but as it stands, as long as you have done well in the courses I've mentioned, or will do so, you should talk to your referees and ask their advice on how to approach applying for grad school (they sure did help me!).

Also, good luck with McDunnough if you're taking STA447 this term!

BP

I've gotten B's in all the courses you listed except MAT137, I just barely passed. I'm still finishing up the second year math and stats requirements, so I haven't taken any of the upper level courses except MAT334 (Complex Variables). I got a B-.

I still have 4 full semester to go (not including this semester).

The University of Toronto Admission requirements page is a bit confusing. A lot of the Canadian schools are, actually. They all only give a minimum required GPA for the last two years (I'm assuming, by UofT's system, last 10 credits). If the case is that a very large portion of my admission is based on this GPA and not my GPA over my entire academic career, I am less concerned, as I am confident I can get better grades from now on (like I said, I've slacked up epically, I rarely attended class or did homework, just showed up for tests after reading lecture summaries).

Xero:

The programs I am looking at are:

Mathematical Finance, Stats/Biostats - University of Toronto

Stats/Biostats- Mcgill University

Stats- U of Waterloo

Applied Math- CUNY

Stats/Biostats- Columbia (after UofT, this is my preferred option)

Statistics- U of California (Davis, La or Santa Barbara)

Applied Math- Georgia Tech

Statistics- George Washington

All for Masters.

There may be a few more, but basically, outside of the two Canadian schools, I am not looking at top ranking schools.

Thanks

Edited February 28, 2011 by Fallen

[Xero735]

Good luck, but my experience with those schools is if you don't have over a 3.0 (and at least a 3.25) you probably won't be considered. I would advise you to consider lower tier programs with your current GPA.

[Fallen]

Good luck, but my experience with those schools is if you don't have over a 3.0 (and at least a 3.25) you probably won't be considered. I would advise you to consider lower tier programs with your current GPA.

Do you have any suggestions?

I was under the impression that most of the programs I listed were ranked in the lower tiers. I don't think any of them are top 30 in the US.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Fallen

[Xero735]

CUNY Columbia and GAtech are all very strong programs. I would look at rankings and go for 30-40 ranked

[brollyparagus]

I've gotten B's in all the courses you listed except MAT137, I just barely passed. I'm still finishing up the second year math and stats requirements, so I haven't taken any of the upper level courses except MAT334 (Complex Variables). I got a B-.

I still have 4 full semester to go (not including this semester).

The University of Toronto Admission requirements page is a bit confusing. A lot of the Canadian schools are, actually. They all only give a minimum required GPA for the last two years (I'm assuming, by UofT's system, last 10 credits). If the case is that a very large portion of my admission is based on this GPA and not my GPA over my entire academic career, I am less concerned, as I am confident I can get better grades from now on (like I said, I've slacked up epically, I rarely attended class or did homework, just showed up for tests after reading lecture summaries).

Thanks

My UofT GPA had an upward trend from 2.7 to 3.6 overall, but I don't think that factors. It's mainly doing well in those courses that helps, as well as good recs. Since you have two more years, take some time to do some research with a prof during the year or during a summer. I'm sure there are NSERC's for undergrads during the summer and interested profs who will probably provide stellar references thereafter. You've got nothing but potential at this point as you have yet to take the really important courses that get looked at during the admission process at UofT (and I suppose to an extent at Waterloo). Good luck!

BP

[Fallen]

My UofT GPA had an upward trend from 2.7 to 3.6 overall, but I don't think that factors. It's mainly doing well in those courses that helps, as well as good recs. Since you have two more years, take some time to do some research with a prof during the year or during a summer. I'm sure there are NSERC's for undergrads during the summer and interested profs who will probably provide stellar references thereafter. You've got nothing but potential at this point as you have yet to take the really important courses that get looked at during the admission process at UofT (and I suppose to an extent at Waterloo). Good luck!

BP

Thanks for the response.

I emailed the admissions office for the Math department at UofT. They said they really only look at the last 10 math courses I take (10 300/400 level courses). They also said I can explain my poor performance in earlier years if I'd like.

[Harp916]

Just a heads up on UC Davis

For the Fall 2011 Quarter, they had 363 graduate applicants and only admitted 5 students. I know this because I go to UC Davis, and I always talk to the graduate admissions coordinator. You're gonna have to work really hard for UC Davis!

[TopDice]

interesting..I havent heard from davis yet reg my decision but since they have already admitted 5 students, either I m rejected or they have put me on WL. I havent seen many rejects from davis in feb/march. they probably wait until april and send out official decisions.

Just a heads up on UC Davis

For the Fall 2011 Quarter, they had 363 graduate applicants and only admitted 5 students. I know this because I go to UC Davis, and I always talk to the graduate admissions coordinator. You're gonna have to work really hard for UC Davis!

[Fallen]

That certainly makes my chances in the future seem more bleak.

Bit depressing. Makes me wonder why I'm doing this degree, as I certainly can't get a job without at least a Masters.

sigh

[equinox]

I'm sorry... but I really don't see how you would get into any of those programs without something like a really good GRE math score proving that you learned the material later on, or STELLAR research recommendations, and even if you did- I am not sure I see how you would succeed. Those programs you listed are pretty much all top 50 schools- competition these days is really high, and funding has been cut close to half- why would they take you over another student? And you have to do well in classes that will be much harder and more demanding than the ones you have just done mediocre in.

If you have never shown yourself doing better than a B in a math course, that's not really a great indicator. Did you have to work hard for that B? I guess what I'm asking is- what makes you think that graduate school is right for you? I don't know you, or your story in great detail, so of course this may not be fair- but it just doesn't sound like you are prepared at all for graduate work.

Do you maybe have strong programming skills to offset the weak math?

[coffeeintotheorems]

That certainly makes my chances in the future seem more bleak.

Bit depressing. Makes me wonder why I'm doing this degree, as I certainly can't get a job without at least a Masters.

Jesus Christ, man, are you really going to give up that easily? You're, what, 21, 22? You're likely going to have to go to a lower-tier program for your Masters, but if you do really well there--i.e. "start over" and do it right the second time around--you might be able to get into a decent program for your PhD.

Oh, and make sure you don't go straight into the Masters from undergrad unless you really, really want it. Maybe work for a year in a crap job so that you'll be very hungry to learn and succeed without messing around or letting yourself get depressed.

[hedgie]

Quick question regarding the Master's.....and this is more my situation. I did poorly in undergrad, returned to finish a Math Bachelor's and may do a Master's before a PhD. Will adcom's really even be paying much attention to the UG work or will it be my Master's work that would be focused on?

I wish I was your age and was taking my do-over fallen....don't give up you have plenty of time/opportunities!

[illu]

Well UofT has a professor that graduated from UC Davis. His recommendation may land you there, but I honestly don't think he (or anyone) is willing to write you a reference with your GPA right now.

Anyways, if you are perm resident or Canadian, UofT biostats might be possible, but you have to work hard. Also you have to be prepared that it does not give fundings (~7k per year tuition)

You can also consider going to York - it's always overlooked by UofT students but it's actually very decent.

My best suggestion is to reduce your course load (take only 3-4 per semester) and improve your GPA. This may cause you to take one more year to graduate, but I think having a good grasp of the fundamentals will be worth it. I wouldn't worry too much about MAT137 if you can do well on MAT357, for example.

Edited March 24, 2011 by illu

[brollyparagus]

Well UofT has a professor that graduated from UC Davis. His recommendation may land you there, but I honestly don't think he (or anyone) is willing to write you a reference with your GPA right now.

Lol, Fang is a cool enough guy. If OP explains his situation, a recommendation might not be so far-fetched.

[Fallen]

I'm sorry... but I really don't see how you would get into any of those programs without something like a really good GRE math score proving that you learned the material later on, or STELLAR research recommendations, and even if you did- I am not sure I see how you would succeed. Those programs you listed are pretty much all top 50 schools- competition these days is really high, and funding has been cut close to half- why would they take you over another student? And you have to do well in classes that will be much harder and more demanding than the ones you have just done mediocre in.

If you have never shown yourself doing better than a B in a math course, that's not really a great indicator. Did you have to work hard for that B? I guess what I'm asking is- what makes you think that graduate school is right for you? I don't know you, or your story in great detail, so of course this may not be fair- but it just doesn't sound like you are prepared at all for graduate work.

Do you maybe have strong programming skills to offset the weak math?

I don't really have any programming skills beyond the minimum required.

I've gotten B+'s A-'s in math courses, just not very many. I've still got 2 years (4 semesters) and a couple of summers to offset my crappy GPA.

I was looking at schools based on a recommendation above. Would I be better off considering schools ranked below 50?

Also, my only reason for considering grad school, and I know it is a crap reason, is because job prospects for someone with a BSc in Stats are a tad poor. Other than actuarial work (and that is seemingly difficult to get an entry level job in), I don't see anything else concrete.

I'll be even more honest. I don't even like math/stats. I find it to be absolutely dreadful, but considering I can't really transfer into anything worth a salt, it's irrelevant.

I should invest time into researching job opportunities for someone with my education.

Jesus Christ, man, are you really going to give up that easily? You're, what, 21, 22? You're likely going to have to go to a lower-tier program for your Masters, but if you do really well there--i.e. "start over" and do it right the second time around--you might be able to get into a decent program for your PhD.

Oh, and make sure you don't go straight into the Masters from undergrad unless you really, really want it. Maybe work for a year in a crap job so that you'll be very hungry to learn and succeed without messing around or letting yourself get depressed.

I wasn't planning on giving up. I was having a bad day in general, and reading the responses had me a little depressed.

Well UofT has a professor that graduated from UC Davis. His recommendation may land you there, but I honestly don't think he (or anyone) is willing to write you a reference with your GPA right now.

Anyways, if you are perm resident or Canadian, UofT biostats might be possible, but you have to work hard. Also you have to be prepared that it does not give fundings (~7k per year tuition)

You can also consider going to York - it's always overlooked by UofT students but it's actually very decent.

My best suggestion is to reduce your course load (take only 3-4 per semester) and improve your GPA. This may cause you to take one more year to graduate, but I think having a good grasp of the fundamentals will be worth it. I wouldn't worry too much about MAT137 if you can do well on MAT357, for example.

I plan on graduating in two years. I only have 8.5 credits left to do, and I should be taking 1-2 courses again through the two summers.

How much of the admission to UofT is based on upper year courses? I've done much better in my 300/400 courses than the 100/200 level courses.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Fallen

[equinox]

Oh boy. You don't LIKE math/stats? then my number one piece of advice is- do NOT, NOT, NOT go to ANY math PhD program. They are ALL grueling, and require serious creativity, and a lot of in depth study of pure math. MAYBE go to a Masters in math and stop. As a math person, my opinion of stats is a bit low, so I am biased in saying that a stats PhD is more realistic- but everyone wants a PhD in Stats, and they are very competitive as a result. In any case, material wise- stats is WAY more accessible for anyone wanting to do something math-ish.

Taking a few more classes to get your GPA up might help your chances of getting a job, but it still leaves you VERY far from being PhD student material, even at a lower rank institution. If you DO have two more years, you need to do a LOT MORE than just take classes. Among other things, you need to do really freaking well on the subject GRE, and this will offset a lot of your early lower grades.

By min required, you mean you took a Java course (or R) ? Programming is skill that you will need to get THROUGH any graduate program in math/stats. Research is a good way to practice your programming skills when the problem is not set.

Yes, I would say aim lower than top 50, get in touch with professors at those schools, and ask them, straight up- what do I need to do to make my resume look competitive to you. Make yourself more than a piece of paper to them.

[Fallen]

I'm pretty confident I can get -some- job in Finance. I have a fair few friends that have ranking positions at investment firms etc.

I'm not so much concerned with purely having a job. I've set myself up well from a financial stand point by investing well. I even own property (not fully paid off). I was just figuring that, going to grad school will give me more chance if finding something I enjoy. In hindsight, that was poorly reasoned.

I'll say that I enjoy math more that statistics, but don't particularly care for math. I absolutely hate statistics.

Thanks for the advice. I've got a lot of work to do, and also a lot of thinking.

I am competent in R and Java programming. I can write pseudo code for a lot of things, I simply don't know syntax. There was a time when I considered majoring in Computer Science.

Second edit: I am working on my skills with Mathematica/Matlab this summer (If I don't get into 2 classes I'd like to take). The thing with programming is, I enjoy doing it/learning about it, but not in an academic setting.

Edit: I'm not sure if something like this helps. In any case, I am a BJJ instructor and competitor. I spend quite a bit of time doing that as well. I suppose it makes me look like more than just a student, but given my low grades, I doubt it's of any merit.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Fallen

[coffeeintotheorems]

Also, my only reason for considering grad school, and I know it is a crap reason, is because job prospects for someone with a BSc in Stats are a tad poor. Other than actuarial work (and that is seemingly difficult to get an entry level job in), I don't see anything else concrete.

I'll be even more honest. I don't even like math/stats. I find it to be absolutely dreadful, but considering I can't really transfer into anything worth a salt, it's irrelevant.

In light of this new information, I agree with equinox that if you don't like mathematics or statistics you should not do graduate work in either. You'll be constantly unhappy, won't perform well, and may not finish.

Actuarial jobs are certainly doable with only a Bachelors and by a passing a few silly exams on material you won't even use on the job anyway. I'm not sure how bad the employment outlook is *right now*, but I imagine the demand for actuarial work will increase and bounce back to pre-crisis levels (or near that) within a few years. For example, in early 2008 (before the sh-- hit the fan) I easily got an entry-level analyst position with only one exam.

That said, if you want to work as an actuary your primary value must be job security and comfortable compensation. The work is not in any way intellectually satisfying (unless you're at or near the top) and is only good if you're trying to provide for your family or "make a lot of money."

It sounds like you need to take a step back from this entire conversation and figure out what you really want in life. I can understand wanting to get a "good job," but if you have little understand of what you love then you're going to crash and burn quickly, whether professionally or academically.

[Fallen]

In light of this new information, I agree with equinox that if you don't like mathematics or statistics you should not do graduate work in either. You'll be constantly unhappy, won't perform well, and may not finish.

Actuarial jobs are certainly doable with only a Bachelors and by a passing a few silly exams on material you won't even use on the job anyway. I'm not sure how bad the employment outlook is *right now*, but I imagine the demand for actuarial work will increase and bounce back to pre-crisis levels (or near that) within a few years. For example, in early 2008 (before the sh-- hit the fan) I easily got an entry-level analyst position with only one exam.

That said, if you want to work as an actuary your primary value must be job security and comfortable compensation. The work is not in any way intellectually satisfying (unless you're at or near the top) and is only good if you're trying to provide for your family or "make a lot of money."

It sounds like you need to take a step back from this entire conversation and figure out what you really want in life. I can understand wanting to get a "good job," but if you have little understand of what you love then you're going to crash and burn quickly, whether professionally or academically.

My primary goal is job security/comfortable compensation. I have something outside of school/work that I am passionate about, and so long as my job doesn't keep me from that, it's not the biggest deal what I do. Of course, I would like to do something I truly enjoy, but it's impossible to know what that is until I actually do it.

Thanks for the response, good chap.

[equinox]

I'm pretty confident I can get -some- job in Finance. I have a fair few friends that have ranking positions at investment firms etc.

I'm not so much concerned with purely having a job. I've set myself up well from a financial stand point by investing well. I even own property (not fully paid off). I was just figuring that, going to grad school will give me more chance if finding something I enjoy. In hindsight, that was poorly reasoned.

I'll say that I enjoy math more that statistics, but don't particularly care for math. I absolutely hate statistics.

Thanks for the advice. I've got a lot of work to do, and also a lot of thinking.

I am competent in R and Java programming. I can write pseudo code for a lot of things, I simply don't know syntax. There was a time when I considered majoring in Computer Science.

Second edit: I am working on my skills with Mathematica/Matlab this summer (If I don't get into 2 classes I'd like to take). The thing with programming is, I enjoy doing it/learning about it, but not in an academic setting.

Edit: I'm not sure if something like this helps. In any case, I am a BJJ instructor and competitor. I spend quite a bit of time doing that as well. I suppose it makes me look like more than just a student, but given my low grades, I doubt it's of any merit.

Well, research feels pretty different from academics, no? Maybe find some fun small problems to work on, to have some original work to present? I really think that original work would be something that would WAY overshadow bad grades, and I bet there are professors around who could hook you up with some problems...

Good luck!!!

[Sleepy]

In light of this new information, I agree with equinox that if you don't like mathematics or statistics you should not do graduate work in either. You'll be constantly unhappy, won't perform well, and may not finish.

Actuarial jobs are certainly doable with only a Bachelors and by a passing a few silly exams on material you won't even use on the job anyway. I'm not sure how bad the employment outlook is *right now*, but I imagine the demand for actuarial work will increase and bounce back to pre-crisis levels (or near that) within a few years. For example, in early 2008 (before the sh-- hit the fan) I easily got an entry-level analyst position with only one exam.

That said, if you want to work as an actuary your primary value must be job security and comfortable compensation. The work is not in any way intellectually satisfying (unless you're at or near the top) and is only good if you're trying to provide for your family or "make a lot of money."

It sounds like you need to take a step back from this entire conversation and figure out what you really want in life. I can understand wanting to get a "good job," but if you have little understand of what you love then you're going to crash and burn quickly, whether professionally or academically.

I'm sorry but I kinda disagree here.

I don't hate math/stats, but I certainly don't find it enjoyable as other activities.

But I prefer it to all other professions and I can't make money off of sitting in my room and watching youtube, which is why I am pursuing a phd.

From personal experience, if you dislike studying math/stats, you will hate being an actuary.

It is awfully boring.

I remember as an intern, we had a farewell party for a coworker leaving the profession. The things she said about the job and how miserable she was really frightened me.

She cried during her speech, thats how unhappy she was.

Also, the exams aren't just "silly exams". They are very difficult and really pointless.

So from my personal perspective, I think you would be better off to put yourself in a position where you can be a decision maker, rather than a number cruncher, and in this field, it means getting more education.

But those are just my 2 cents.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Sleepy

[coffeeintotheorems]

I'm sorry but I kinda disagree here.

I don't hate math/stats, but I certainly don't find it enjoyable as other activities.

But I prefer it to all other professions and I can't make money off of sitting in my room and watching youtube, which is why I am pursuing a phd.

It sounds like you haven't found a career you really like, then, if the only thing you enjoy is "watching youtube." If you read OPs posts closely, you'll see that he loves Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (?), already owns real estate, and is looking for something he enjoys that will also pay (more) bills. Clearly enjoyment is an important priority in his search.

I remember as an intern, we had a farewell party for a coworker leaving the profession. The things she said about the job and how miserable she was really frightened me.

She cried during her speech, thats how unhappy she was.

Agreed. I'd say about half the people I talk to in the actuarial track are happy with their work (because they just want simple-minded number crunching that's secure and pays well), and the other half are miserable and only stay for the money if they stay at all.

I haven't heard about any crying yet. Out of curiosity, why was your coworker so miserable that she broke down in front of everyone, and what is she doing now?

Also, the exams aren't just "silly exams". They are very difficult and really pointless.

I only took the first two exams (Probability and Financial Math), and I can say with 100% confidence that if you *really* understand the material (which any second-year math major should) and take all the practice exams, you should pass without too much trouble. It's just like prepping for the GRE quant section (only with more advanced material): if you take all the practice exams available and keep a cool head during the test, you should get an 800. Maybe they've made them much harder in the past three years?

So from my personal perspective, I think you would be better off to put yourself in a position where you can be a decision maker, rather than a number cruncher, and in this field, it means getting more education.

Ok, in this field that means getting a PhD. An MS simply won't cut it if you want "decision-making" rather than number-crunching. Unless, for example, you go into business and have strong ambitions and a keen entrepreneurial instinct.