instant choice regret

[SimoneSimon]

Hey everyone,

Is anyone else feeling any regret about their choices following April 15? I deliberated for so long, and weighed my options so carefully, but I still can't stop second-guessing my decision. Ultimately, I went the "better fit over better reputation" route, but not by that much. I chose a top-15 school over an Ivy, just because it seemed to me that there were more people at the top-15 that fit my interests (huge names in my field). However, this went against the advice of almost all my professors, and all the arguments for going to a better-ranked or just better perceived school (no matter how vaguely) are driving me crazy!

I'm quite ambitious, and I thrive off of being pushed by my fellow students, and I'm afraid that they won't be quite as good as I would have found elsewhere (it's an unfortunate truth that the best students choose to go to the best-ranked fit, no matter what). I'm the kind of person who prefers overzealous people in a classroom to apathetic ones. I'm also afraid that there will exist the dreaded "underdog" attitude among the professors - a sense that if their students really were the best, they would have gone elsewhere. I visited the school, and this didn't seem to be the case, but what can you tell from one weekend, really? Finally, I'm afraid I'll just regret the general sense that "important work is being done here" that you get with the very best schools. It can be quite inspiring.

I'm more concerned about all of these things than I am about any career worries, since I know the school is still quite well ranked overall, and I don't think I'll be handicapped by going there. I suspect I would be regretting my decision no matter what it had been, and I know that your career is what you make of it. I know it's just neurosis and I just want to get over it and start to feel excited about starting in the Fall! It would be great to hear from anyone else who's facing this sort of thing...

[rising_star]

yes, I felt regret instantaneously. I keep telling everyone that I'm happy with the decision but... I'm not.

[fizz]

I didn't have a choice to make but I've regretted not getting my application in to Stanford on time. I think it's because I feel a little -- embarrassed? ashamed? -- telling people I'm going to a smallish state school. Plus it happens to be in the same city as I'm in right now so it almost feels like I'm going to community college, y'know? It's the best fit for me, and I'm pleased to be staying in the area, but I can't help but feel like an underachiever next to my friends going off to private, big-name schools.

[divineexistence]

It was good to get to read your post. I was worried I was the only one who had made this sort of decision.

I turned down a top 3 program in my area (w/5 years solid funding) in order to go with the current number 17 program (w/a similar funding package).

I totally got the "super-smart, great thoughts happen here" vibe from the #3 prospective weekend from both the profs and the other prospies. The entire process was exciting, and I really did get that "being courted" feeling from the entire thing. I felt *really* smart and special for getting in, and I think the faculty definitely encouraged that sensation. However, I also talked to more than one unhappy grad student, got the definite sense that admitted students were expected to be smart enough to figure out their own training and thus structure was not really provided, and generally got the impression that once I was in, I would have to fight pretty hard to get paid attention to ("self-advocate" a lot).

The other school, the one I went with, ended up being much more grounded, the grad students universally happy (if humbler about their intellectual prowess), and the program came off without exception as remarkably "big, supportive family" . The faculty were involved in the weekend and actually hung out extracurricularly with the current grad students. Generally speaking, I also think that the department's philosophy toward work in the field is much more in sync with my own intellectual standpoint. That said, no part of the recruitment process really played up the "man, you're *so* smart" stroking of my ego, nor did I intellectually connect to the same degree with the other prospectives as I did with the ones at #3. There is really great work going on at the school, but there was not that same sense of "here is the home of the great thoughts" being promoted like it was at the other school (which makes me wonder if that has more to do more with self-image than actual substance).

I ended up going with "healthy" over "dazzling," because this is a 5+ year commitment, and I really feel that both my intellectual ambitions and personal happiness will be better served by what the #17 program has to offer.

That said, I am still nervous about that "underdog" mentality being there and getting into the program only to find it doesn't gear itself toward "high-octane" intellectual experiences and inquiry. To an extent, that worry won't go away until I am there and I can see how it is for myself. I don't believe I will be disappointed, however.

It is also important to point out that if the program does end up tending toward that, you still get the advantage of the "big fish, small pond" effect. Start sticking out as an exceptionally brilliant potential, and I am sure some of those big names In the faculty may very well take note and invest in you personally. Snagging high-performing students is one of the ways that programs build themselves up, and if you show yourself as a special asset to the department, people will take care of you. Graduate school is not the same as undergraduate - the students, at least in well-functioning departments, are investments to be cultivated. Just make sure they find out early how great an investment you are!

[engguy]

I think it's inevitable. In my case it's especially excruciating because I felt like I was choosing not only between two programs, but two entirely different career paths in the academic world -- both of which I find inspiring and exciting. (And I do mean different -- completely different fields of study working with completely different kinds of faculty.)

I made sure to visit both schools I was seriously considering, talked it over with advisers and family / friends and people I knew who'd attended both schools, went through every possible scenario, made lists.... and still I felt that I ended up making a snap decision. But I keep telling myself that if I had gone the other way, I'd be feeling the same sense of loss for the other school. And as many told me as I went through the process, there was no bad decision here -- at the school I chose I have great support and it's a fine program for what I'm doing.

My question for you folks is: if you feel this regret, what was the "tipping point" that made you choose as you did? Was it something that came from your head, your heart, your gut -- or what?

For me, it was partially the voice of the woman in HR I called to ask a question about health insurance. I will have almost no interaction with this woman, but her Midwestern accent and her helpful, friendly tone just sounded like home to me. I started to think of all the people like her that I'd end up meeting and interacting with, and it just nudged me the rest of the way towards making the decision. You might think that's funny or just dumb, but I'll bet others were brought around by even dumber things.

At any rate, just live with the regret, and let it go -- this too shall pass.

[Minnesotan]

Better to earn a PhD at a good program than drop out of an excellent one. I think I would have made the same decisions as the above posters. You don't need to attend an Ivy to succeed. You might, however, need to attend an Ivy if you require a lot of ego stroking.

[divineexistence]

Regarding decisions:

For all those logical reasons I just went through, the most honest answer probably has something to do with that "home" feeling you mentioned. The city, the people - they didn't make me feel like I was some rockstar, but they did make me feel like I was home. There was an unprompted familiarity at the prospective weekend which interacted very strangely with the parallel "newness" of it all.

Fortunately, I'm a subscriber (from strong personal experiences) to the importance of gut-feelings and an intuitive sense of things. Part of me probably knew all along where I was going to pick, but I am glad I went through the paces of deciding, as angsty as some points got.

Nervousness is likely unavoidable, but when I relax and stop analyzing everything so much, I feel a deep contentment with the decision. That's probably the best anyone can hope for after a difficult decision. It's all a very "The Road Not Taken" experience.

[SimoneSimon]

Thanks to everyone for their responses! It's really, really relieving to hear from similar situations, and my family and friends are getting sick of listening to me agonize. I completely understand the "lesser name" embarrassment; my family had heard of some of the other places I got into, but hasn't heard of the one I chose (which isn't saying much, since they know nothing about academia, but it's annoying, in any effect). Nevertheless, Minnesotan, I think you're absolutely right. Once we're in the programs, also I suspect concern with the more substantive side of grad school - the part where we're doing work and actually thinking about our subjects of study - will push out this obsession with the more superficial elements.

Nevertheless, I think the description of "high-octane intellectual experience" is a very apt one. It's exactly the galvanization that I'm looking for. Not to be self-satisfied (and, of course, I think everyone has found themselves in this situation at one point or another), but I certainly have never felt "at home" when I've felt that I was operating at another level than my classmates, or that my commitment was much greater than theirs. Situations like that are energy-sapping and frustrating. I very much prefer to be outperformed than to easily outperform.

In terms of the tipping point: I always felt in my "gut" that the choice I made was the right one. Since in my rational deliberations two programs were completely deadlocked, when it came down to it, I went with this instinct. I told myself I would regret it much more if I went the other way. You know, the old, 'flip a coin and see how the outcome makes you feel' approach. So I went for it and committed on the 14th. However, my neurosis has completely taken over, and I don't know how I feel anymore. My 'gut' now tells me that the other place suited me better. Obviously not a great measure in my case.

[Quarex]

You might have thrived in the past by being pushed by fellow overzealous students, but maybe this time you will have to be a little more self-driven. You say that you work better when being outperformed; do you know why this is? Did you grow up in an environment where your siblings/friends/etc. were constantly outperforming you, and you had to keep up? You say you never felt "at home" when operating at a different level than your classmates; most people here were likely the kind of students all through pre-college education who easily outpaced all of their classmates. Are you just talking about the college level? If so, what changed? If not, you must have gone to a truly amazing school. I thought the whole reason we are all going for the pinnacle of academia was that we have never been satisfied with our prior educational difficulty, and want to finally experience challenges beyond any presented by our previous instructors or classmates, not just like them? This probably sounds hostile or something, but it really is just from curiosity. I have never really talked to anyone who wants to be surrounded by others who consistently outdo his best efforts!

Back specifically to your point--it is entirely possible that the quality of students at the tier below the Ivies is hardly as greatly degraded as you may think. If the logic is true that the best schools really do have two or three times as many excellent candidates as they can accept, then surely most of them will still be around at the top-15 level.

Also, there was a study done not long ago (naturally, the source eludes me) that indicates people are basically almost always happy with their big decisions, provided that constant reminders of their unmade decisions are not popping up; if you chose one school over another in the same town, you might always feel uneasy about it. But otherwise your positive experiences should override the lingering question of what might have been.

[SimoneSimon]

Indeed, I believe you're right. I was probably being hyperbolic when I described my ideal environment as one in which I felt constantly outclassed! Clearly, no-one wants to be in this situation. I just meant that I like to learn from my colleagues. In fact, I'm more speaking of dedication. In the humanities, in any case, I've found that the majority of students aren't really terribly engaged with their studies. So often I hear PhD's saying that they go to school all day, so they don't want to talk about scholarly subjects during their spare time, or describing what I perceive as driven students as "competitive" or "phony." My attitudes may certainly change as I proceed through grad school, but my current opinion is that if books don't completely absorb you, graduate work isn't for you. It seems like a platitude, but I'm surprised again and again by the apathetic attitudes of grad students I meet. The alternative is often simply careerist grad students, which is just as bad.

I realize my previous comments were inflammatory and foolishly expressed. I simply wanted to emphasize my apprehension. And I have certainly met many, many excellent students from "lesser" institutions, it's true. But they've all told me how frustrated they are with the intellectual environment available to them. What a strange paradox!

Thanks for the reference to the study - I'm sure that the excitement will build as the start day approaches.

rising_star: what are the worries? Similar to mine?

[UndraftedFreeAgent]

In fact, I'm more speaking of dedication. In the humanities, in any case, I've found that the majority of students aren't really terribly engaged with their studies. So often I hear PhD's saying that they go to school all day, so they don't want to talk about scholarly subjects during their spare time, or describing what I perceive as driven students as "competitive" or "phony."

Who goes for a PhD in a discipline that really only lends itself to academia and is NOT obsessed with his or her studies? In my last program, we only oulawed "talking shop" when at the pub post-exams, and even then, it didn't really work. I'd find it hard to believe that students in a top-15 program, as you described it, wouldn't be serious students. I really hope you're wrong about the intellectual environment.

More on topic: after deciding on a program, I only really doubted myself the moment I gave notice to my employer that I'm leaving. I had a sudden fear that this whole thing wouldn't work out and that I will have left the best job I could ever get.

[Nofia]

More on topic: after deciding on a program, I only really doubted myself the moment I gave notice to my employer that I'm leaving. I had a sudden fear that this whole thing wouldn't work out and that I will have left the best job I could ever get.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. I have an amazing job and my only fear is going to be walking away...particularly when i know that, even if im lucky enough in 5-7 years to land a tenure track job, my starting salary will be less than what i make now. i'm fearing leaving a really amazing job and the opportunity cost of doing so...but then again, I fear not following what I believe to be my ultimate career path (historian/professor) much more. I keep reassuring myself by noting that there are always other doors to open.

[rising_star]

My worries are related to the fact that I visited four programs and decided to go to the one that I didn't visit. I picked it because I'll have a big-name advisor who i fabulous at helping his students publish, get external funding for fieldwork, and get jobs. He's a big name in the subfield really. And he wanted to work with me, which I found enticing. I chose against the highest ranked program that admitted me because I'd heard some fishy things about my potential MP. It came down to two schools (incidentally they have quiet a few connections. Former chair of Y is now chair of X). I realized that the school I didn't choose has a great postdoc program and that their postdocs have a record of getting hired as faculty there and elsewhere and I would like to work there. The advisor at Y doesn't have as strong of a track record. Oh, and I wanted someone more hands-on/involved (really bordering on pushy) to make sure I'm forced to be the best scholar and academic that I can be.

Moving 1800 miles away to a place you've never visited is scary, either way. I think it'd be weird if I didn't have any fears...

[the17thscream]

I made a similar fit vs. rank decision and choose fit. I also agonized over my decision between a huge #1/2 ranked program (X) with big name profs (though none in my subfield) and impressive/competitive grads and a tiny #9/12 program (Y) with two profs in my subfield (which is quite small) and chill/happy grads with whom I could actually see myself being friends. Coming from an Ivy undergrad, I am admittedly super competitive and probably would have done well in program X, but ultimately my loyalty lies in my subfield (extremely well represented at program Y), and I felt at "home" there. The professors I will be working with at Y took immediate interest in me and my research (which fits perfectly with their own) and spent nearly two hours discussing intersections between their stuff and my thesis. Contrastingly, the profs at X struck me as friendly but super busy; while they thought my research is "fascinating", my subfield is admittedly ill-represented at program X. As recommended by my profs at my Ivy undergrad (the grad program here is the primary competition of program X) my decision was based on the question, "Where will I write the best dissertation I possibly can?", and program Y was by far the winner. Besides its superior fit with my interests, it offered me more money (enough where I don't have to worry about debt or additional jobs) and had a nicer, happier environment.

While I certainly feel some anxiety about my decision, particularly whether or not it will handicap me professionally to move from an Ivy undergrad, top ranked in my field, to a "lesser" program, I remain relatively satisfied/excited about Y. The program is ridiculously flexible, allowing me to tailor everything to my own interests, and even though it's small, the personal attention is unbeatable, particularly since the profs there already seem invested in me. I've spent four years orienting my studies towards making the academic institution happy, and now I'm ready to focus on myself and my research.

That said, I fully intend to kick ass at program Y, using my competitive nature to rise to the top of the pile, all big fish/small pond style. ;-9

[yakuza77]

I turned down a lot of money (five year fellowship 22K), for less money (first year fellowship 25K, followed by assistantship ~12K (ouch)) BUT the opportunity to work with an up-and-coming big name for my particular subfield. My current school only has one person who works in my subfield, and it is not his main interest.

To be completely honest, much of my decision was based upon where I will be living. The five-year fellowship was at my current university, which is in a city that I absolutely hate. I have been nothing short of miserable for the two years that I have spent here getting my MA. Although my department is fine, the school itself is awful (poor funding, low quality undergrads, very poor facilities) and I hate absolutely everything about the city (traffic, strip malls, too darn hot, too much crime). The school that I picked, on the other hand, is very reputable, better funded, and in an awesome little college town. Also, when I visited, I met a lot of the grad students and I was very impressed with them (I can't say the same about my current school, which I think is not selective enough). I hate to think that I chose the school based upon location, since, as a grad student, I have little time to do anything other than research anyway, but I think that was what it came to in the end. I just couldn't stomach staying here in Florida for another 5, 6, or however many years.

Ranking in my discipline doesn't really mean much, it is more "oh, you were so-and-so's student", but now I am paranoid. What if that professor leaves? Then I will just be in an "okay" department in a great school in a cute little town.

Still, deep inside I think that I would have regretted NOT leaving here, and wondering what could have been. But that five-year fellowship was hard to pass up, and I am sure that I will be thinking about it when I start that 12K assistantship, but I know that I will happier in the little college town. What good will the extra money do me if I am miserable all of the time anyway? I just hope it all works out in the end.

[nertperson]

Whew! Add me to the list. I chose the better reputation school over a school where students and faculty seemed universally happy--but only because I really didn't have any good research fits at the happy school.

[Quarex]

My attitudes may certainly change as I proceed through grad school, but my current opinion is that if books don't completely absorb you, graduate work isn't for you. It seems like a platitude, but I'm surprised again and again by the apathetic attitudes of grad students I meet. The alternative is often simply careerist grad students, which is just as bad.

We definitely agree again on these topics. Why does anyone go to graduate school in the first place if not due to an unending desire to learn and research more? Well, other than the people who get their master's degrees because they are a requirement for their line of work, or a guaranteed higher paycheck. But still--if you CAN get burned out on a topic, particularly during your first few years of serious research dedication, then as you said, why even consider staying in? And as you also wonder, why would anyone want to stay in forever? Heck, you get to do some of the same fascinating stuff in the "real world," but actually get paid a real salary for it!

I realize my previous comments were inflammatory and foolishly expressed. I simply wanted to emphasize my apprehension. And I have certainly met many, many excellent students from "lesser" institutions, it's true. But they've all told me how frustrated they are with the intellectual environment available to them. What a strange paradox!

That paradox is depressing reality for me, and for others like me (I have talked to a few here) who thought their undergraduate degrees were as meaningless as their high school diplomas. Only after realizing there was no way to make up those lost years (and related pathetic academic performance, in a field I never really liked) did things finally click. I think there were maybe two other people out of about 40 in my master's program who actually talked about the subject outside of class, at least beyond frequent plaints of "oh man, I SO don't want to do this report/presentation/research/at all anymore!" But that environment was what I got for not performing up to snuff sooner. I hope things are different for my doctorate ... though I do not know how much optimism is realistic.

[LaraAnn85]

I had the oh-god-what-have-I-done feeling for a few days after I made my decision. I actually didn't choose the school that I had a gut feeling about, because I quickly realized that my gut was wrong! I didn't love the school I chose when I interviewed for a few reasons: it was my first visit, I had the flu, I had preconceived notions about the school and city, and I was with another girl vying for the same spot and she was being very competitive with me the whole time. However, the faculty were fabulous, the students all seemed very happy, former students are doing extremely well, and people can't stop saying great things about my advisor there. I really liked my 2nd choice but I'm not entirely sure why- I would be the advisor's first grad student, it's not a great location, the students did not seem too happy, and a former student said my other choice might be better. For some reason my "gut" immediately liked that one better, but my brain knew better and after a few weeks I realized that the first one was clearly the best choice. So first impressions can be important, but with a huge decision like this I needed to ruminate!